***Official CAITLIN CLARK Thread***

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by Chryghst

Serena was definitely brute force. Sadly Saba is the post-Federer era, so after my time. I get your point about the game with no overhand serves and the translation to WNBA. The answer might be to lower the rim to adjust the proportional math of player heights in men’s/women’s games…or…

Keep in mind societies are often top-down, not bottom-up phenomena. If there’s no $ in professional women’s basketball, young girls are discouraged by their families from pursuing it. So the first generation of professional women either possess incredibly advantageous athleticism (but lesser skill) or they’re from advantageous backgrounds and can devote time to youth hobbies. More investment into the NBA means AAU circuits pop up, young boys pursue it because there’s a future in it, and families jump on board early because it offers upward societal mobility—worst case college scholarship, best case NBA salaries.

Investment in the NBA creates a whole infrastructure that extends into grassroots youth sport which improves the professional talent level eventually, but that takes time. Would think the same will be true for WNBA as time goes on, where families begin to see women’s sports can provide a viable future for their daughters and commit to it more than they have done. 10 years ago I can imagine families encouraged their daughter to pursue other things than basketball with their time, and young girls couldn’t turn on the TV to watch a WNBA game and dream about playing there one day. So the talent level should absolutely improve.

Brilliant job simultaneously outlining the current issue facing american tennis, particularly amongst african americans.

And outside of the top 100, it's living-out-your-suitcase struggle life. Most come from middle to upper middle class households or have strong familial ties to the sport. Do I think at least one of these NBA/NFL dudes could have had the capability of being in that Big 3 tier? I'd be lying if I said no. But we'll never know.

Originally Posted by Chryghst

Thought about it more, Ninja, and I don’t think lower hoops are the answer. While it makes sense that lower height means lower release point and further distance required to the rim…lower hoops ultimately means fewer accessible courts in local communities. Parks would have to build men’s courts and women’s courts rather than everyone being able to play on what’s there now.

I think that trade-off is a net negative overall.

Bit of tongue in cheek. Like you said, it's not feasible. Complete remapping of public/private facilities. And for current and future players that make a career off of repitition, lowering or raising a hoop as little as half a foot would be like learning to walk again.


I don't think there's an easy fix for the WNBA. But raising the league average 43/33 shooting splits could be a decent start.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Love women's tennis. You're right in that it's generally a more tame/methodical viewership experience, though Saba and Serena definitely blurred those lines a bit. But you still get all the same aspects between both. Imagine the women's game without overhand serves. That's how the WNBA feels for me...it's handicapped because of the game's natural emphasis on height that further magnifies the differences in size/athleticism between sexes.


Caitlin's the only one even attempting to challenge the status quo, but even then we're witnessing how difficult it is for a female to maintain reasonable efficiency from those ranges because of the strength/endurance challenges over an entire game/season.

Could natural evolution eventually get women to the point where the gaps are mitigated? I don't know. Kind of feels like they're already approaching those upper limits, now they're just trying to fine tune/maximize their existing skillsets.

Whereas the NBA just keeps on getting bigger/stronger across the board.

Sort of related to this: We've seen in our lifetime a female athlete who came into a sport and totally dominated to become one of the biggest female athletes on the planet (and top 3 in her sport including males at the time), and totally change how females participated in the sport from then on.

Her name was Ronda Rousey and she was so effective at getting women into MMA that they level of competition blew by her just as fast as she came on the scene.

So many CC helps the game in that way.

[Chryghst]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Brilliant job simultaneously outlining the current issue facing american tennis, particularly amongst african americans.

And outside of the top 100, it's living-out-your-suitcase struggle life. Most come from middle to upper middle class households or have strong familial ties to the sport. Do I think at least one of these NBA/NFL dudes could have had the capability of being in that Big 3 tier? I'd be lying if I said no. But we'll never know.

I don't think there's an easy fix for the WNBA. But raising the league average 43/33 shooting splits could be a decent start.

Definitely agree with you on tennis. Tennis instruction also less accessible outside of affluent areas. So barrier to entry high and then staying power low…difficult combination for the underprivileged. I remember James Blake from my tennis-following days but looks like he was from Fairfield, Connecticut…which supports your thesis.

I didn’t know WNBA league average was 43/33. The 1998-99 nba season had shooting splits of 44/34, closest I could find. Seems we’ve found the solution for the modern-nba haters! To extend their logic that must mean defense is much better in the WNBA than NBA…(overly simplistic correlation, of course)

[Chryghst]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Sort of related to this: We've seen in our lifetime a female athlete who came into a sport and totally dominated to become one of the biggest female athletes on the planet (and top 3 in her sport including males at the time), and totally change how females participated in the sport from then on.

Her name was Ronda Rousey and she was so effective at getting women into MMA that they level of competition blew by her just as fast as she came on the scene.

So many CC helps the game in that way.

Definitely related and cool example. It’s also why I get a little annoyed that modern players don’t appreciate the ones who came before them. Not only did they grow the game to your benefit($s), but in some cases forged a path that literally might not have existed otherwise. Many future boxers will be better than Katie Taylor, but they probably wouldn’t be boxers at all if not for Katie Taylor.

I’m coming around on CC. Even if she isn’t the goat, she’s a cultural stepping stone which might create the goat.

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by Corporal Lance

No. She looks like Neil from The Young Ones.

Whatever this means

[Nomad]

Neil Young?



I'm not personally wading into the WNBA Wild West investor crap shoot until there is a prospect from Canada.

[eastbayak]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

The problem isn't that she's overrated.


It's that the rest of the league isn't even rated.


WNBA will never be a good business model. The reason why female UFC and tennis still thrive is because they're shared event/revenue models. There is very little NBA/WNBA overlap, and Silver would never make the financial suicide decision of trying to do so.

Not to mention, many professional UFC/tennis (and soccer) female athletes are actually good at their respective sports.

You still have "good" WNBA players missing uncontested lay-ups. The general public isn't ready to spend its time and money watching this.

[HunterConnorMom]

Originally Posted by eastbayak

Not to mention, many professional UFC/tennis (and soccer) female athletes are actually good at their respective sports.

You still have "good" WNBA players missing uncontested lay-ups. The general public isn't ready to spend its time and money watching this.

Thanks for this…for some reason I laughed out loud when she missed 4 layups in a row after getting the rebound or getting blocked.

[Incarnadine]

Is anyone watching this Fever/Dream game? It is just an abomination to watch (tied 32-32 right now). There's no flow, both teams playing slow boring BB, missed layups galore and poor screens.
The coach sitting CC a lot and when she puts her on she's mostly off ball.
I'm a big fan of CC but I can't watch more of this kind of BB.
at least last year they were fast and fun to watch, even when they were losing.
This is how you ruin your cash cow and send a league into bankruptcy.

I would honestly prefer to see the Fever lose an exciting game than win playing like this (assuming they even can win playing this slow boring style).

[boxbuster7]

pride of ucla jordin canada killing it

[HunterConnorMom]

Originally Posted by Incarnadine

Is anyone watching this Fever/Dream game? It is just an abomination to watch (tied 32-32 right now). There's no flow, both teams playing slow boring BB, missed layups galore and poor screens.
The coach sitting CC a lot and when she puts her on she's mostly off ball.
I'm a big fan of CC but I can't watch more of this kind of BB.
at least last year they were fast and fun to watch, even when they were losing.
This is how you ruin your cash cow and send a league into bankruptcy.

I would honestly prefer to see the Fever lose an exciting game than win playing like this (assuming they even can win playing this slow boring style).

Agree and maybe why she is 7-38 from 3 point recently and the team has minimal flow/passing.

[Chryghst]

I’m watching, and Ninja was right. I don’t care for the above-the-rim stuff personally, but it is notable how much less separation the offensive player creates compared to the NBA. Every shot is pretty heavily contested, even step-backs in the midrange or off the dribble coming around screens. Some very impressive shot-making but can see how that drags down overall efficiency. It also might just be CC is still hurt.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Sort of related to this: We've seen in our lifetime a female athlete who came into a sport and totally dominated to become one of the biggest female athletes on the planet (and top 3 in her sport including males at the time), and totally change how females participated in the sport from then on.

Her name was Ronda Rousey and she was so effective at getting women into MMA that they level of competition blew by her just as fast as she came on the scene.

So many CC helps the game in that way.

Don't think we'll ever witness another pump n' dump phenomena like her in our lifetime. She basically became a domestic cultural icon for a brief time before Holm put her in a bodybag. Hosting SNL as a female MMA brawler kind of speaks to how crazy her reach was at her peak.

I think Clark is an interesting case study. Because she is definitely a highly skilled player with amazing court vision and scoring ability. But if she adjusts her perimeter game to be less Trae/Lulu reckless and more conducive to efficiency, will she still be as heralded and followed? Like how much of her current popularity is predicated on her nailing 30 footers without the Curry accuracy? Do WNBA fans even care about the deep metrics?

Honestly I have no clue. But right now nobody's even remotely challenging her in the tiktok highlights department, so she can probably maintain the edge for the time being.

Originally Posted by Chryghst

Definitely agree with you on tennis. Tennis instruction also less accessible outside of affluent areas. So barrier to entry high and then staying power low…difficult combination for the underprivileged. I remember James Blake from my tennis-following days but looks like he was from Fairfield, Connecticut…which supports your thesis.

I didn’t know WNBA league average was 43/33. The 1998-99 nba season had shooting splits of 44/34, closest I could find. Seems we’ve found the solution for the modern-nba haters! To extend their logic that must mean defense is much better in the WNBA than NBA…(overly simplistic correlation, of course)

Blake's now one of the mainstays on the announcing crew on the Tennis Channel. Always appreciate his insight as a former player, particular one with african american ancestry. He's touched on this subject before and actually doing things with his academy to try and shift the landscape. Dude's solid.


So essentially the WNBA currently mimics the early onset of the NBA's dead ball era. Not a great place to be in in terms of optics. The amount of blown uncontested layups and looks during the course of any WNBA game is staggering. I think that once again harkens back to the exaggerated physiological differences between the sexes when it comes to height-focused sports. It's a lot easier to finish when your hand is at or above rim level.

Primary reason why volleyball nets for females are over half a foot lower than their male counterparts. They understood the mission.

[Incarnadine]

Finally, CC starts the 4th on ball and things happen. Lead went from 4 to 13 in 3 minutes and Sophie is cooking and almost at a double double.
If they could just play like this for most of a game they'd kill it.
Still, I expect the coach to put CC back in the corner and mess with the line up again any minute now.

[Chryghst]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Blake's now one of the mainstays on the announcing crew on the Tennis Channel. Always appreciate his insight as a former player, particular one with african american ancestry. He's touched on this subject before and actually doing things with his academy to try and shift the landscape. Dude's solid.

Seemed like a class act when he played, so good to hear.

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

It's a lot easier to finish when your hand is at or above rim level.

Definitely a main principle within analytics—efficiency drops with each step from the basket, so makes sense it would compound with an additional vertical dimension. That said, I don’t want to hijack the thread with constant improvement ideas haha. We can save that for the offseason threads. Crowd seems to be really enjoying it and that’s what matters most. I have seen more post-ups in a quarter than I have in years which is fun.

[Chryghst]

Originally Posted by Incarnadine

Finally, CC starts the 4th on ball and things happen. Lead went from 4 to 13 in 3 minutes and Sophie is cooking and almost at a double double.
If they could just play like this for most of a game they'd kill it.
Still, I expect the coach to put CC back in the corner and mess with the line up again any minute now.

What’s the Fever’s offensive identity? Is it pace and transition like the Pacers or more balanced? Seems like they use their bigs and play inside-out a lot, but maybe that’s just their strategy against the Dream?

[Incarnadine]

Well, it was a win at least. Fever started down 12-4 and were down until late in the 3rd and went up by 4 going into the 4th.
CC finally went on ball for the first 6 minutes and in that 6 minutes scored 3, assisted on 4 and added 3 rebounds and went to the bench with a 16 point lead. With CC on the bench it slowed down and Atlanta got it back to 11 before Lexi and Sophie bombed late 3's to make it 99-82.
Most of the 4th was actually fun to watch, apart from about a 2 minute stretch right after CC came off. Still, the majority of the game was hard to watch and that needs to change.

[703dispensary]

Originally Posted by Incarnadine

Most of the 4th was actually fun to watch, apart from about a 2 minute stretch right after CC came off. Still, the majority of the game was hard to watch and that needs to change.

Not my comment but on Griner's travel: "we traded an arms dealer for this?"

[Incarnadine]

Finally, some BB worth watching. CC vs. Paige and fast paced. After the 1st quarter both have 7 points and 2 assists in a back and forth high scoring quarter (Fever ahead 28-27)

[Incarnadine]

This is the most fun game since the Fever/Liberty game. I don't think CC has been off ball this whole game and the Fever have scored 64 in the half, the most by any team in a half all year.
For the CC vs. Paige halftime stats:
CC 10 points, 7 assists, 1 rebound (should be at least 9 assists, Mitchel and Dantas both misses easy layups alone by the net)
Paige 10 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds

[boxbuster7]

well looks like the 1st quarter was exciting - then it became a blowout

I wanted to watch this game but thought it was on later

ugh...

[Incarnadine]

Originally Posted by boxbuster7

well looks like the 1st quarter was exciting - then it became a blowout

I wanted to watch this game but thought it was on later

ugh...

It's a good one, still 6 minutes left.

CC has 14 points, 13 assists, 3 rebounds and 5 steals. She just checked out and probably won't come back in. She's been on limited minutes since she's come back and they are keeping her around 25 minutes (25, 26 and 25 her last 3 games)

I still wish she'd shoot more, only 10 or 11 attempts this game when even at limited minutes she should be around 15 and 18-20 with full minutes.

[Incarnadine]

Final score Fever 102 to 83 with the Fever using the bench players for the final 6 minutes.

CC vs. Paige:

CC 25 minutes, 14 points, 13 assists, 3 rebounds, 5 steals, 1 block

Paige 33 minutes, 21 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds, 2 steals

[Nomad]

Pacers never got such a rundown on a regular season game. GG CC.

[cdub6238]

Originally Posted by Nomad

Pacers never got such a rundown on a regular season game. GG CC.

Season is over...and yet you can't help but contaminating other threads with your schtick...

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