Ronald Acuña

[atk825]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Just so we're clear, you continue to claim that Betts is such a better defender than Acuna, but you sent a link to a stat that show Betts with 2 DRS and Acuna with 1 DRS? Sounds like their closer than what you think.


https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leade...nning?type=Fld

Baseball Savant actually attempts to quantify what I'm asking about. Runners only attempt to advance on 30% of chances against Ronald. That's good for T4 in the majors for lowest, and he has roughly 40 or more attempts than the rest of the top 10. Betts is at 42%, tied for 3rd worst.

Sorry, but I'm not going to go along with your claim that Mookie's overall defense is that much better than Acuna's

RAJ has played 470 more innings in right and Mookie rates a 5 DRS at second. And creating outs is more important than runners taking an extra base.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by atk825

RAJ has played 470 more innings in right and Mookie rates a 5 DRS at second. And creating outs is more important than runners taking an extra base.

You sent a link that shows them 1 run different. You've claimed Mookie is playing elite defense in right this season. You've done nothing to provide any proof of that

If you're going to talk about creating out and saving runs, make sure you talk about all of Mookie's innings. Not just his time at 2b

And there is a ton of value in preventing taking an extra base. Preventing a guy from stretching a single into a double, or going first to third, or tagging and taking third on a fly ball means the next ball in play has a lower chance of being a run scoring play.

What a shocker, two things you think have little to no value, preventing advancement and stealing bases, are two things that Ronald is considerably better at than Mookie

[NCWolf]

Originally Posted by comicbooksgo

Exactly. Glad you mentioned that as it was going to be the first thing I'd say. He literally controls the running game in the same way an elite catcher would.
Also, 2nd (3rd? 4th?) the "you don't watch the games" comments. The ONLY people that bag on Ronnie's D are the ones who don't watch the games on a nightly basis. Rosario is a butcher and if he is ranked that way in comparison to Acuna, then that metric isn't worth a damn.

Yep. When I did some research and saw that stat I immediately discredited it.

More detail:
Matt Olson ranked in the 9th percentile in OAA. Theoretically one of the worst defensive first basemen in the game.
Pete Alonso ranked in the 62nd percentile. Well above average.

Enough said.

[atk825]

Originally Posted by whitmm

You sent a link that shows them 1 run different. You've claimed Mookie is playing elite defense in right this season. You've done nothing to provide any proof of that

If you're going to talk about creating out and saving runs, make sure you talk about all of Mookie's innings. Not just his time at 2b

And there is a ton of value in preventing taking an extra base. Preventing a guy from stretching a single into a double, or going first to third, or tagging and taking third on a fly ball means the next ball in play has a lower chance of being a run scoring play.

What a shocker, two things you think have little to no value, preventing advancement and stealing bases, are two things that Ronald is considerably better at than Mookie

Preventing a batter from reaching first because you caught the ball is more important than keeping the runner from getting to second.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by NCWolf

Yep. When I did some research and saw that stat I immediately discredited it.

More detail:
Matt Olson ranked in the 9th percentile in OAA. Theoretically one of the worst defensive first basemen in the game.
Pete Alonso ranked in the 62nd percentile. Well above average.

Enough said.

Olson in the 9th percentile, Ronald in the 9th percentile, Ozzie in the 20th percentile.

Should we be discussing how incredible it is that the team that has allowed the second fewest runs this season despite having the worst right side of the field in all of baseball?

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by atk825

Preventing a batter from reaching first because you caught the ball is more important than keeping the runner from getting to second.

How much more important?

If you don't think that both are important, you're just a troll. Not everything is a fly ball champ. A ground ball through the right side the outfielder has no chance to prevent a runner from getting to first, but he has a chance to prevent that runner from going first to third. Preventing a runner from tagging and getting to third on a fly ball means the next fly ball out doesn't have a chance to score that run. Those things are important

[BBases31]

Originally Posted by atk825

Preventing a batter from reaching first because you caught the ball is more important than keeping the runner from getting to second.

It's quantifiable and I'm almost positive DRS takes this into account. You can't make an OAA argument which takes away the qualitative and then make your own qualitative argument on something for which numbers do exist

[atk825]

Originally Posted by whitmm

How much more important?

If you don't think that both are important, you're just a troll. Not everything is a fly ball champ. A ground ball through the right side the outfielder has no chance to prevent a runner from getting to first, but he has a chance to prevent that runner from going first to third. Preventing a runner from tagging and getting to third on a fly ball means the next fly ball out doesn't have a chance to score that run. Those things are important

Both are important. Preventing a runner from ever reaching first is more important.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by atk825

Both are important. Preventing a runner from ever reaching first is more important.

That's your opinion. I choose to look at defense as the whole picture. Mookie does some things better than Ronald, Ronald does some things better than Mookie. Neither one of them is providing elite defense when discussing everything and talking about all positions played.

The gap in their defense isn't as big as you think it is. And Ronald's base running generates runs on the offensive side to offset the defensive side.

If preventing the batter from reaching first is the most important thing, then limiting the damage done from not making the out is the next most important thing.

[comicbooksgo]

HoooooHuuuuuum
Just another single the other way and an SB. It's automatic at this point.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by comicbooksgo

HoooooHuuuuuum
Just another single the other way and an SB. It's automatic at this point.

If you count the number of times he's singled and then stole the base during the next AB (so not tonight's) as doubles, I wonder where he would rank among the leaders.

[brios8]

58 Stolen Bases


Im guessing he ends up with 76

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by brios8

58 Stolen Bases


Im guessing he ends up with 76

It's a good thing Mookie stole a couple bases tonight, so all of his supporters say they mean something.

[comicbooksgo]

Originally Posted by whitmm

If you count the number of times he's singled and then stole the base during the next AB (so not tonight's) as doubles, I wonder where he would rank among the leaders.

I've actually had that same thought. I'd almost think there's no way he wouldn't be ahead by A LOT.

[SupermanBrandon]

2-4 w/ a single, double, sb, bb...boring

[Rabs]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

2-4 w/ a single, double, sb, bb...boring

2 SB!

[ThoseBackPages]

boring

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by Rabs

2 SB!

That might be a little home cooking. They never really showed the second one on the broadcast. But it was on a pitch that was in the dirt, and their commentary never really made it sound like he was going on the pitch

[anusinha]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

boring

I will compensate for this boring day by showing off one of my few Acuna's I have left (box pulled by me back in the day)

[ThoseBackPages]

Love that!

[SaltyCracker]

Ronnie up to #22 for all time single season power-speed # with 37.77

#21 on the list is 1956 Willie Mays at 37.90

[NCWolf]

Originally Posted by SaltyCracker

Ronnie up to #22 for all time single season power-speed # with 37.77

#21 on the list is 1956 Willie Mays at 37.90

That’s awesome! Where are you seeing this?

[BoSoxFan1999]

Here's my best attempt at objectively stacking up Acuna's and Betts' MVP cases (categories where one player had a very slight edge are basically a coin flip so I left them out):

Acuna's advantages: BA (.333), Runs (113), SB (58)
Betts' advantages: HR (34), RBI (86), SLG (.598)

Acuna's main claims to fame are BA and SB, while Betts' is his power numbers (HR/RBI/SLG) and defensive flexibility (note I am NOT saying Mookie is a significantly superior defender compared to Acuna, but merely his ability to flex from the OF to 2B/SS is a plus).

Both the Braves and Dodgers are running away with their divisions, so the precise head to head win totals (Braves 4.5 up on LA) by season's end probably won't sway voters too much unless one team clearly establishes itself as the superior team (talking like close to 10 games better).

Acuna's owned the MVP narrative pretty much the whole season up until very recently, but Mookie's late season blitz has put a pause on Ronald's coronation. Would be great if fans of both players could just enjoy being able to watch 2 such talented stars instead of the petty sniping. Healthy debate is fine, but the sarcastic "oh, someone said SB don't matter so Mookie's 2 SB last night don't mean #@#@#@#@" or "Acuna made a great defensive play so Mookie playing multiple positions don't mean #@#@#@#@" barbs are pretty childish.

[BoSoxFan1999]

Tossing in some more nerd objectiveness, here are Fangraphs' current projections for final counting stats for Acuna and Betts:

• Acuna: 36 HR, 146 R, 96 RBI, 75 SB, 8.1 WAR

• Betts: 45 HR, 136 R, 114 RBI, 13 SB, 8.7 WAR

[NCWolf]

I think a side by side comparison is necessary here if you're looking for differences...

Betts
Hits: 138
SO: 87
BB: 71
AVG: .300
SLG: .598
OPS: .995
HR: 34
RBI: 86
2B: 33
Runs: 103
SB: 10
OPS+ 164

Acuna
Hits: 167
SO: 72
BB: 68
AVG: .333
SLG: .570
OPS: .989
HR: 28
RBI: 74
2B: 30
Runs: 113
SB: 58
OPS+ 162

Numbers are somewhat similar just about everywhere. You get a little more power with Betts, and more frequently on base with Acuna. Only one category shows a major difference.

Betts is deserving in most cases. But I'll say it again, history is hard to beat.