What’s Worse?

[pewe]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

I mean cycling on and off properly, nothing will happen to you

I’ll let physicians comment on this, but my understanding is the effects on arteries, glands, etc. occurs regardless and is permanent. Specifically when used in volumes to generate PED level benefits (I don’t mean speeding injury recovery… that might be different). These are generally the source of long term health consequences, I believe.


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[JoshMN]

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

If you’re counting any and all forms of cheating as career damning acts that should banish a player from your collection, you’re gonna have a small collection. Read the history books, baseball has been all about trying to get away with cheating since it started. Let’s hope you don’t have any Gaylord Perry in your collection. But I doubt you own any baseball cards, or even like baseball.

Gaylord is a great example! He's a HOF and revered for the most part, but everyone knows he cheated. Are y'all saying doctoring a ball is not as bad as stealing signs?

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by Randallk34

Pretty naive statement, no?

sure, and there is probably some level of risk, more so than what I state, but mostly its true. Take baseball, peak steroid users now should be what in the 55-65 age range. How many of them are having serious health consequences as as a result of their steroid use. I'm sure there are some minor leaguers and lesser known players that have but it has to be a tiny fraction compared to the total number of users, and those that are having problems very well may not have use correctly.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by JoshMN

PEDs. Surprised so many people are saying stealing signs.

I look to the Patriots and Tom Brady for a good analogy. Brady and the Pats got caught cheating twice for non-PED rule breaking, but no one cares about that anymore and it won't affect Brady's legacy. Now if Brady had gotten popped for PEDs I think the current perception of him would be much different and his legacy would be tainted.

Yeah, I don’t get it. Stealing signs has been a part of the game since catchers giving pitchers signs was a thing. It’s talked about a few times in the great book, “The Glory of Their Times”.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

I mean cycling on and off properly, nothing will happen to you

Steroids can cause you to be immune suppressed and make it more likely that you catch an infection, like ringworm.

[pewe]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Steroids can cause you to be immune suppressed and make it more likely that you catch an infection, like ringworm.

Chicken? Or egg???


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[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by pewe

Chicken? Or egg???


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I’m surprised people don’t find it unusual that a healthy young lad like Tatis caught a ring worm infection from a routine hair cut.

Ringworm infections are much more common in individuals who are immune compromised.

Steroid use makes you immune compromised.

Anyone see the connection now?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by pewe

It sounds like you only care if cheating results in better performance?

There is a lot of evidence that the Astros stealing signs made the players’ performance worse, not better… so now you love the Astros???


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Um, I guess reading comprehension is hard. But I never said anything like that. All I did was answer the question of which I thought had more impact in a game. I made no statement regarding which I care about or if I support or condemn either type of cheating.

[seanrs1]

I find the BO morality police very interesting. Cheating is cheating (clearly logically correct). Is sign stealing the old fashion way cheating? By BO morality police the answer is yes. Is it still part of the game...yes stealing signs is part of the game. Do BO morality police stop collecting cards of all players on all teams...of course not.

Is some cheating acceptable in baseball? Is some cheating acceptable by BO members that collect cards?

Specifically with Tatis....if his insane story of accidental exposure is true is he still a cheater? According to the BO morality police yes (positive test is a positive test...aka cheating). Is it cheating if unintentional? Is it cheating if he never played a game with the steroid in his system?

These again are questions to make people think. I am a Tatis collector. What will happen to his card prices in the future if he redeems himself....that is a completely different question. Will I still collect Tatis is he story is verified...not sure yet, but probably. Will I collect his cards if he intentionally cheated...not sure about this one. Food for thought. Is it ok to collect cards of a cheater (with no regards to price paid)? Would it be ok to collect cards of an athlete that committed murder?

Is it cheating selling a raw card that you know is nrmt or worse (without specifying its condition)? Or is that merely omitting?

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by seanrs1

I find the BO morality police very interesting. Cheating is cheating (clearly logically correct). Is sign stealing the old fashion way cheating? By BO morality police the answer is yes. Is it still part of the game...yes stealing signs is part of the game. Do BO morality police stop collecting cards of all players on all teams...of course not.

Is some cheating acceptable in baseball? Is some cheating acceptable by BO members that collect cards?

Specifically with Tatis....if his insane story of accidental exposure is true is he still a cheater? According to the BO morality police yes (positive test is a positive test...aka cheating). Is it cheating if unintentional? Is it cheating if he never played a game with the steroid in his system?

These again are questions to make people think. I am a Tatis collector. What will happen to his card prices in the future if he redeems himself....that is a completely different question. Will I still collect Tatis is he story is verified...not sure yet, but probably. Will I collect his cards if he intentionally cheated...not sure about this one. Food for thought.

Sometimes cheating + time = romanticization of the player for the cheating. I don’t thin that will happen for the PEDs guys, but I can see it happening for a guy like Altuve.

[eye4talent]

They’re both wrong, so I don’t know that there is much value in determining the lesser of two evils.

However, I will add the caveat that I’m not as offended by players who dabbled in PEDs but spent the vast majority of their successful careers clean—at least those who played in the steroid era and quickly corrected course.


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[no10pin]

I think for some people, the level of anger towards someone who cheats in any form is based on how they handled being caught.

The Astros were arrogant a-holes about it when everything came out, so most people are going to keep that grudge for awhile. Players who are apologetic and take ownership tend to be forgiven down the road, at least by some.

[pewe]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Um, I guess reading comprehension is hard. But I never said anything like that. All I did was answer the question of which I thought had more impact in a game. I made no statement regarding which I care about or if I support or condemn either type of cheating.

You said stealing signs has a greater “impact on the game”. If you didn’t mean “allows the players to have more successful at bats than they would have otherwise” and thus by implication “enables the team win more than they would have otherwise”… what “impact” did you mean?


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[rms13]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

PEDs are fine. Your body, your choice.

This. Everyone is looking for a competitive advantage so the playing field is level. Baseball has so many more problems than players being the best possible version of themselves. I went to my first game in about 10 years a couple of nights ago and I was bored out of my mind. 3+ hours with barely any action. 2 home runs in the game and a bunch of walks and strike outs. There was probably about 2 total minutes of action in the 3+ hours the game took. Everyone in the stands was on their phones trying to stay entertained because the product on the field isn't doing it anymore.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by rms13

This. Everyone is looking for a competitive advantage so the playing field is level. Baseball has so many more problems than players being the best possible version of themselves. I went to my first game in about 10 years a couple of nights ago and I was bored out of my mind. 3+ hours with barely any action. 2 home runs in the game and a bunch of walks and strike outs. There was probably about 2 total minutes of action in the 3+ hours the game took. Everyone in the stands was on their phones trying to stay entertained because the product on the field isn't doing it anymore.

So you are suggesting that MLB should simply allow all forms of cheating - no rules - to make baseball more viewer friendly?

[seanrs1]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

So you are suggesting that MLB should simply allow all forms of cheating - no rules - to make baseball more viewer friendly?

Its not cheating if there are no rules.

[BdotHobbs]

I never cared about PEDs before and I don’t care about them now. And I definitely don’t care about sign stealing.

[pewe]

Originally Posted by seanrs1

Its not cheating if there are no rules.

How do you know which team wins if there are no rules???


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[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by seanrs1

Its not cheating if there are no rules.

Yes, if they allow everything, then MLB turns into WWE.

Sounds fun to me.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

So you are suggesting that MLB should simply allow all forms of cheating - no rules - to make baseball more viewer friendly?

Sure there should be rules. There should be rules like no shifts allowed, 20 second pitch count, limit to ammount of pitching changes in an inning etc and rules against other things that hurt the game and make it boring. There shouldn't be rules against ped that enhance the game and make it more exciting

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by pewe

It sounds like you only care if cheating results in better performance?

There is a lot of evidence that the Astros stealing signs made the players’ performance worse, not better… so now you love the Astros???


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Originally Posted by pewe

You said stealing signs has a greater “impact on the game”. If you didn’t mean “allows the players to have more successful at bats than they would have otherwise” and thus by implication “enables the team win more than they would have otherwise”… what “impact” did you mean?

You can't be serious? You literally accused me of only caring about cheating if the cheating results in better performance. When I made no comment whatsoever about caring. You are interjecting your own ridiculous assumptions to troll for an argument.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by BdotHobbs

I never cared about PEDs before and I don’t care about them now. And I definitely don’t care about sign stealing.

When I played little league in the 80s we were taught to steal signs. It's called gamesmanship

[pewe]

Originally Posted by rms13

Sure there should be rules. There should be rules like no shifts allowed, 20 second pitch count, limit to ammount of pitching changes in an inning etc and rules against other things that hurt the game and make it boring. There shouldn't be rules against ped that enhance the game and make it more exciting

So, it should be a requirement that players ruin their bodies and die early if they want to play professionally???


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[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by pewe

So, it should be a requirement that players ruin their bodies and die early if they want to play professionally???


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name a baseball player that has died early from steroid use (caminiti doesn't count)

[pewe]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

You can't be serious? You literally accused me of only caring about cheating if the cheating results in better performance. When I made no comment whatsoever about caring. You are interjecting your own ridiculous assumptions to troll for an argument.

In a thread debating the answer to: "Is cheating by taking PEDs worse than cheating by stealing signs like the Astros and other teams did?"

How would you like the reader to take your comment:

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

I think stealing signs has a bigger direct impact than steroids

Was your desire:

Dispassionate? Like "Astro's sign stealing has more impact, but don't use that to draw a conclusion because impact has no bearing."

Positive? Like "Astro's sign stealing has more impact, but its completely OK to do."

Other???