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Old 08-24-2022, 07:49 AM   #1
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Default What’s Worse?

I’ve thought about asking this question before, and with the revelation lately that one of the games biggest at young stars has been suspended for taking PEDs, I thought now would be a good time.

Is cheating by taking PEDs worse than cheating by stealing signs like the Astros and other teams did?

We all know the Astros saga, and we also know about the other teams that stole signals against league rules, but the Astros capitalized in their efforts winning the WS in 2017. As a lifelong fan of the Astros until that year, I was disappointed, angry and upset. I saw them as frauds, cheats and liars. I got rid of my hats, shirts and other collectibles that commemorated that hollow championship. I lost respect for the team and it’s coaching staff. While I root for new guys there, I still can’t find it in me to cheer in any way for Bregman, Altuve and Gurriel which makes it difficult because their success helps Alvarez and Tucker particularly succeed. Many people across sports have rightly vilified that team and it’s players. MLB players also have shown outrage at them and have shown that by throwing at the players and being vocal to the media. Springer, Correa and Marwin Gonzalez moved on to new teams and were welcomed with open arms. Springer and Correa and cheered by new fans who once blasted them for cheating. Current Astros are booed and hissed at by fans now at opposing stadiums, and are still thrown at and vilified. I do understand the anger believe me I do. They cashed in their scheme to become more wealthy, become celebrities and bigger stars, all the while being frauds, cheats and liars. But if the popular belief is that all teams steal signs (and they do), is it the worst baseball crime?

We all know about the steroid era and how baseball was experiencing a sort of second dead ball era between 1970s and the late 1980s. It wasn’t uncommon for the league leader in HR to hit just north of 30 HR, with occasional 40 HR guys. In the 1980s alone, only Evans, Dawson, Mitchell, Bell, McGwire, Murphy, Armas and Schmidt hit 40 HR. Contrast that with the 199s, where we saw 7 players hit 50+ and another 30+ players hit 40 HR at least once. Many of the players on those leaderboards have either been accused or confirmed PED users. Several of them are HOFers, and most of them are widely collected and still respected. We saw several of them brake records and cash their fame towards stardom and celebrity all the while being frauds, cheats and liars. So if the popular belief is everyone in the league was/is doing it, is it the worst baseball crime?

There are jerks, scumbags and overall bad guys in the HOF. Racists, pricks, criminals, illegal drug users, abusers of women, thieves and scoundrels or all shapes and sizes that have played the game and become stars and even some found the HOF. It seems we are forgiving for some and not for others.
Fernando Tatis Jr is another name in a long list of star baseball players fail PED tests. He is not the first to lie about why he did it, and won’t be the last to do it. Many will vilify him as a cheater, fraud and liar. Many will excuse his behavior because he’s young and immature. Many will gloss over it and still see him as a superstar and potential HOFer. Opinions vary in what’s unforgivable and what isn’t, but cheating is cheating. Right? It is odd to me that pitchers don’t throw at players who get caught cheating considering hitting a HR using PEDs off a pitcher is kin to stealing the signals and doing the same. Both were done amusing an unfair advantage. Is it more acceptable to use PEDs since so many are doing it - sort of a professional courtesy? Not saying I want that, but it is interesting.

It sucks for the game, but then again maybe it IS the game. Cheats, liars, frauds… same as it ever was.


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Old 08-24-2022, 07:49 AM   #2
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Old 08-24-2022, 08:24 AM   #3
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Im a die hard Astros fan (so no bias at all), but are you talking card values or perception? Altuve’s cards have never been higher in value, though I kind of think the reasoning is because all the information points that he didn’t cheat. Perception is the Astros because it was a lineup cheating which has more weight on a game than a single player and that people hold it against mlb for no suspensions. I mean nobody cares anymore that Frankie Montas popped for PEDs.
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Old 08-24-2022, 08:42 AM   #4
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What’s worse - getting in a car and running over someone who pissed you off or getting drunk and accidentally running over someone you don’t know, killing the person in both instances?

The way I see it, your decisions lead to the same consequences - you took a life.

Cheating is cheating - just because someone gets away with it doesn’t make it right. People get drunk and get behind the wheel all the time.

Sell your Tatis stash, he doesn’t belong in anyone’s collection.

You keep or buy Tatis, you condone cheating.

And people will question your moral compass for doing so, lol. Why you collecting a roider, bro?

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Old 08-24-2022, 08:45 AM   #5
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PEDs are fine. Your body, your choice.
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Old 08-24-2022, 09:22 AM   #6
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Im a die hard Astros fan (so no bias at all), but are you talking card values or perception? Altuve’s cards have never been higher in value, though I kind of think the reasoning is because all the information points that he didn’t cheat. Perception is the Astros because it was a lineup cheating which has more weight on a game than a single player and that people hold it against mlb for no suspensions. I mean nobody cares anymore that Frankie Montas popped for PEDs.

I’m not speaking of cards at all. I get those are built in to this debate, but my question is about the BM game itself. Altuve is a part of that team, and for whatever reason, didn’t address it outright other than the cookie cutter apology they all gave. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t cheat with the others, but he is culpable being the veteran and star of that team that year. He’s been thrown at ever since, and that’s what I’m speaking of. Why are guys thrown at for cheating one way but not another? Always been curious about that.


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Old 08-24-2022, 09:22 AM   #7
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Astros.
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Old 08-24-2022, 09:23 AM   #8
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There's no difference unless someone slipped the player peds without their knowledge, they're both intentionally cheating.
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Old 08-24-2022, 09:28 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by jhssketchcards View Post
I’m not speaking of cards at all. I get those are built in to this debate, but my question is about the BM game itself. Altuve is a part of that team, and for whatever reason, didn’t address it outright other than the cookie cutter apology they all gave. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t cheat with the others, but he is culpable being the veteran and star of that team that year. He’s been thrown at ever since, and that’s what I’m speaking of. Why are guys thrown at for cheating one way but not another? Always been curious about that.


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How do you know Altuve didn’t address it? And Altuve was the star but Beltran ran the clubhouse that year
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Old 08-24-2022, 09:32 AM   #10
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I'd say cheating by stealing signs and the likes is worse than PEDs, cause with PEDs the pitcher can still outpitch you. The PED user doesn't know what's going to be thrown, they're not intruding on the opposing player's personal space. But with stealing signs you are intruding and that'll piss people off more.
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Old 08-24-2022, 09:40 AM   #11
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How do you know Altuve didn’t address it? And Altuve was the star but Beltran ran the clubhouse that year

He could have been more outspoken about it. He could have demanded them stop it as a team or gone to the front office. Did he? We don’t know but it’s unlikely. He was the MVP that year, not a rookie or a guy like Josh Reddick. Beltran didn’t have the power to end lien e without it being given to him as a whole. If Altuve wanted it to stop he could have done more to stop it. He could have come out and said “I had nothing to do with this, I told them to stop it, I told the GM, the manager, the owner”. He never did any of that or it would have come out. He may not have participated like many believe, but he didn’t do much to stop it.


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Old 08-24-2022, 09:41 AM   #12
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I'd say cheating by stealing signs and the likes is worse than PEDs, cause with PEDs the pitcher can still outpitch you. The PED user doesn't know what's going to be thrown, they're not intruding on the opposing player's personal space. But with stealing signs you are intruding and that'll piss people off more.

Good post thanks and good point!


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Old 08-24-2022, 09:48 AM   #13
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I'd say from my experience as a baseball player, the single biggest advantage a hitter can have is to know what pitch is coming. So as far as straight outcome on the field, I think stealing signs has a bigger direct impact than steroids.
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Old 08-24-2022, 09:57 AM   #14
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I'd say cheating by stealing signs and the likes is worse than PEDs, cause with PEDs the pitcher can still outpitch you. The PED user doesn't know what's going to be thrown, they're not intruding on the opposing player's personal space. But with stealing signs you are intruding and that'll piss people off more.
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I'd say from my experience as a baseball player, the single biggest advantage a hitter can have is to know what pitch is coming. So as far as straight outcome on the field, I think stealing signs has a bigger direct impact than steroids.


It sounds like you only care if cheating results in better performance?

There is a lot of evidence that the Astros stealing signs made the players’ performance worse, not better… so now you love the Astros???


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Old 08-24-2022, 10:04 AM   #15
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I care about the players, and feel horrible about the long term effect and quality of life that playing pro sports has on so many. As PED really damage the players bodies when taken to enhance performance, I’d definitely say PED are far less tolerable to me.


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Old 08-24-2022, 10:09 AM   #16
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Wait people actually think Altuve didn't cheat LOL
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Old 08-24-2022, 10:36 AM   #17
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I care about the players, and feel horrible about the long term effect and quality of life that playing pro sports has on so many. As PED really damage the players bodies when taken to enhance performance, I’d definitely say PED are far less tolerable to me.


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This is actually the problem with PED use, there are virtually no long term health consequences associated with taking them correctly and in moderation. You may increase your risk of other injuries, but outside of catching an air bubble or going for the roids/coke caminiti combo nothing is going to happen.

Which leads to the real issue, risk vs reward. Since there is virtually no risk for taking them and the potential rewards are as big as they can possibly get its pretty unreasonable not to take them from a pure analysis of whether or not you should. This is just amplified for young players from poor countries where the opportunities to sign a 6-7 figure contract are being weighed vs the opportunities of making 500 a month or less without baseball.

Now I'm not having a moral or ethical argument here, but simply stating most baseball players at some point in their lives will be faced with the dilemma of whether or not they should take steroids, and for a very large % of them then answer is probably yes they should, and its also the reason a huge % of them do (same as every sport)
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Old 08-24-2022, 10:36 AM   #18
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I find banging on trash cans slightly more vile than a PED user — both are nasty, but effectively stealing signs requires collusion between several people / the needle user acts alone
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Old 08-24-2022, 10:41 AM   #19
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Wait people actually think Altuve didn't cheat LOL
Randall, shouldn’t you be in the “ Verlander no-no alert” thread accusing him of taking steroids?
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Old 08-24-2022, 10:48 AM   #20
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Randall, shouldn’t you be in the “ Verlander no-no alert” thread accusing him of taking steroids?


I mean he probably does. Would anyone be surprised if Verlander is cheating in someway?
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Old 08-24-2022, 10:49 AM   #21
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This is actually the problem with PED use, there are virtually no long term health consequences associated with taking them correctly and in moderation.
I may misunderstand your comment here… but these seem to be incongruent…

I think PED, by definition, requires use incorrectly and not in moderation. And when abused and used consistent with PED goals it’s pretty well documented to badly damage the body.


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Old 08-24-2022, 10:49 AM   #22
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What’s worse - getting in a car and running over someone who pissed you off or getting drunk and accidentally running over someone you don’t know, killing the person in both instances?

The way I see it, your decisions lead to the same consequences - you took a life.

Cheating is cheating - just because someone gets away with it doesn’t make it right. People get drunk and get behind the wheel all the time.

Sell your Tatis stash, he doesn’t belong in anyone’s collection.

You keep or buy Tatis, you condone cheating.

And people will question your moral compass for doing so, lol. Why you collecting a roider, bro?
If you’re counting any and all forms of cheating as career damning acts that should banish a player from your collection, you’re gonna have a small collection. Read the history books, baseball has been all about trying to get away with cheating since it started. Let’s hope you don’t have any Gaylord Perry in your collection. But I doubt you own any baseball cards, or even like baseball.
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Old 08-24-2022, 10:53 AM   #23
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I may misunderstand your comment here… but these seem to be incongruent…

I think PED, by definition, requires use incorrectly and not in moderation. And when abused and used consistent with PED goals it’s pretty well documented to badly damage the body.


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Old 08-24-2022, 10:55 AM   #24
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I mean cycling on and off properly, nothing will happen to you


Pretty naive statement, no?
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Old 08-24-2022, 10:58 AM   #25
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PEDs. Surprised so many people are saying stealing signs.

I look to the Patriots and Tom Brady for a good analogy. Brady and the Pats got caught cheating twice for non-PED rule breaking, but no one cares about that anymore and it won't affect Brady's legacy. Now if Brady had gotten popped for PEDs I think the current perception of him would be much different and his legacy would be tainted.
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