Positional Investment Ranking: What Say You?

[BabaORiley]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

Here’s my subjective ranking from best to worst.

1. Outfielders
2. Shortstop
3. 1st Base
4. 3rd Base
5. Designated Hitter
6. 2nd Base
7. Catchers
8. Concessions worker
9. Lot attendant
10. Starter
11. Closer
12. Middle Relief

Let me give this the Deadspin (Defector) treatment (and also a quick few tweaks because we don't put Ozzie Albies in the corner and utilitymen need a spot):

1. Outfielders
2. Shortstop
3. 1st Base
4. 3rd Base
5. 2nd Base
6. DH
7. Utility guy who gets hot for a month
8. Having your shin get directly in the way of an oncoming skateboard moving downhill at a rapid rate, followed by raucous laughing at your expense
9. Catchers
10. Concessions worker
11. Lot attendant
12. Starter
13. Getting hit by a bus
14. Closer
15. Steve Bartman (Regional release)
19,984. Middle Relief
N/L. Mop-up reliever

[grizjunkie23]

Pitchers are the hardest to speculate successfully, in terms of prospecting. They’re more prone to inconsistency than position players, due in part to injury risk, loss of velocity, etc. Once firmly established as an elite, consistent talent, their investment potential improves drastically as their career progresses. Kershaw, Verlander, and Scherzer are all building on already hall of fame caliber careers, even if they don’t currently sell as well as some of their position player contemporaries.

I think pitchers benefit more from hindsight once their careers have concluded, as it’s easier for baseball historians to contextualize their overall impact on the game. Plenty of pitchers who were overlooked by the hobby during their playing days, relative to their peers, have seen strong growth years down the road. The rookies of Gibson, Palmer, Ryan, Seaver, etc., now headline their respective sets. Even junk wax era guys like Maddux, RJ and Pedro have seen big increases relative to the popular hitters of their time, as they land high ranks on all-timer lists.

Side note: who remembers reading BBM in the late-90’s, early-00’s, and seeing these guys in the “Unlisted Stars”, “Semistars” categories?

[Mooch1]

Originally Posted by bkspoilers

What did Tom & Greg state, "Chicks dig the Longball".


https://youtu.be/UjkuJPvMrI8

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Amen !!!!

[cardsin47]

Originally Posted by ScooterMcRibs

1. CF, position played by the two hobby GOATs (and if you're delusional enough to call Tuna Fish Sandwich a hobby GOAT then I guess it makes three, but you're wrong).

This is too soon to call — for you, Me, Anyone. Trout has a Goat-like start to his career, but he’s only 60%-ish of the way in to it. We all need to see what happens in that last 40% to make a judgement as to what type of animal he may be, including GOAT

[rwperu34]

Are we talking as prospects or established MLB players?

For prospects it's SS ahead of CF way ahead of everybody else with a small discount for catchers and a huge discount for pitchers.

For MLB position players I have not found much of a positional premium other than SS and maybe a little for CF. There is no discount for the other positions. Even when the premium is there it's only on a narrow range of hitting performance. Pretty much the difference between All Star and not All Star and MVP and not MVP. That type of stuff.

One of the issues is the hobby pays very little for defense. Unless it turns someone into an All Star, an MVP, or someone rattles off 10 Gold Gloves in a row, the hobby is mostly ignoring fielding.

Some examples;

Bo Bichette is getting a pretty substantial SS bonus (along with Seager, Correa, Xander, and Lindor). Fernando Tatis is not, Even as a DH Tatis is an MVP candidate. Those other guys need their defense to carry them to All Star games and eventually Cooperstown.

It doesn't matter if Yordan Alvarez or Eloy Jimenez plays LF, 1B, or DH, the hitting will make up 100% of their value.

For someone like Rafael Devers, even if he shifted over to 1b or LF or DH he wouldn't see a drop in value. In fact in some cases it might be better to move down the ladder to have a better chance at a Gold Glove.

[cjraleigh]

Originally Posted by rwperu34

Are we talking as prospects or established MLB players?

……

One of the issues is the hobby pays very little for defense. Unless it turns someone into an All Star, an MVP, or someone rattles off 10 Gold Gloves in a row, the hobby is mostly ignoring fielding.

Agreed. Defence is virtually non-existent as even a contributor, much less a driver of hobby impact. It’s almost always a byline when discussing their career, even for top tier hobby guys like Mays (okay maybe not Mays) and Clemente.

For modern guys, Yadi is 90% known for the *Gold Gloves and 10% known as the rare modern lifer with one team and as a clubhouse leader. Arenado is his defensive contemporary at 3rd, but at least had the big bat (and positional premium) to support any hobby love he has.

Even legendary defensive players like Brooks, Ozzie, and Pudge Rodriguez are low-mid tier players in the hobby, despite their HOF credentials. Sure, Pudge (and Yadi) is hampered further by his position, but Bench’s cards overcome that and are held in much higher regard because of his offence.

Maddux is the standard at his position with 18 GG, but again, a byline to his career after the Cy Youngs, 300 wins, 3000 Ks, etc… Position aside, where does he fit on the HOF hobby spectrum….mid tier? His unprecedented GG hardware does almost nothing to offset his position.

Last example and a counterargument to defensive influence…Jim Kaat. Absolute lower(est) tier hobby wise, but it was 16 Gold Gloves that put him over the top for induction (along with his broadcasting career)…not his other stats.

*I realize GG are a hyper-simplistic approach to defence and often poorly correlate to actual metrics. It’s the easiest reference we have, though.

[ScooterMcRibs]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

This is too soon to call — for you, Me, Anyone. Trout has a Goat-like start to his career, but he’s only 60%-ish of the way in to it. We all need to see what happens in that last 40% to make a judgement as to what type of animal he may be, including GOAT

He's not a hobby GOAT no matter how much you disillusional pumpers try to make it so. Even if he didn't get injured, even if he kept putting up numbers until he was 40, even if there was no corona and no strike, he still wouldn't be a hobby GOAT because being a hobby GOAT is about much more than numbers.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by cjraleigh

Agreed. Defence is virtually non-existent as even a contributor, much less a driver of hobby impact. It’s almost always a byline when discussing their career, even for top tier hobby guys like Mays (okay maybe not Mays) and Clemente.

For modern guys, Yadi is 90% known for the *Gold Gloves and 10% known as the rare modern lifer with one team and as a clubhouse leader. Arenado is his defensive contemporary at 3rd, but at least had the big bat (and positional premium) to support any hobby love he has.

Even legendary defensive players like Brooks, Ozzie, and Pudge Rodriguez are low-mid tier players in the hobby, despite their HOF credentials. Sure, Pudge (and Yadi) is hampered further by his position, but Bench’s cards overcome that and are held in much higher regard because of his offence.

Maddux is the standard at his position with 18 GG, but again, a byline to his career after the Cy Youngs, 300 wins, 3000 Ks, etc… Position aside, where does he fit on the HOF hobby spectrum….mid tier? His unprecedented GG hardware does almost nothing to offset his position.

Last example and a counterargument to defensive influence…Jim Kaat. Absolute lower(est) tier hobby wise, but it was 16 Gold Gloves that put him over the top for induction (along with his broadcasting career)…not his other stats.

*I realize GG are a hyper-simplistic approach to defence and often poorly correlate to actual metrics. It’s the easiest reference we have, though.

I agree with you, but it’s funny how playing a position matters and doesn’t matter at the same time. We don’t care about defensive skill, but we do want them to be out there on the field. Guys who primarily play DH usually take a hit as far as hobby love goes.

[rwperu34]

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

I agree with you, but it’s funny how playing a position matters and doesn’t matter at the same time. We don’t care about defensive skill, but we do want them to be out there on the field. Guys who primarily play DH usually take a hit as far as hobby love goes.

I do not believe this to be true. Papi and Edgar are both pretty much aligned with what their batting numbers would suggest. I think the real issue is we don't really have any full time elite DH in the league right now for me to track closer. If Vlad or Yordan or Eloy or even Devers were to become a full time DH, I don't think it would have any impact on their prices other than how it affects their hitting and playing time.

[Alec11579]

I think Nelson Cruz has probably been the best full time DH for probably close to the last decade just off the top of my head.

[cardsin47]

Originally Posted by ScooterMcRibs

He's not a hobby GOAT no matter how much you disillusional pumpers try to make it so. Even if he didn't get injured, even if he kept putting up numbers until he was 40, even if there was no corona and no strike, he still wouldn't be a hobby GOAT because being a hobby GOAT is about much more than numbers.

He is ….
Good, we finally agree

[pewe]

I would ignore positions as the dominant lens, and instead rank them:

1) beyond MLB media star (ie KGJ, Ortiz, Jeter level)
2) MLB specific, but not media/beyond baseball, HOF star (ie Trout level)
3) MLB HOF based on power batting
4) MLB HOF based on batting/base-running “skill”
5) MLB HOF based on pitching
6) MLB HOF based on fielding
7) regional media star, with long career, that doesn’t make HOF
8) short tenure star who burns out / injury ended career
9) long tenure fan-favorite “rest” player
10) all other players


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[BlowoutBuzz]

Hitting. Don't care on position.