Running CGC (old CSG) Order Tracker

[TSonn]

Originally Posted by mrgant

Please detail your experience cracking the CSG cards and resubbing to PSA. I love the CSG labels and look, but man, they are harsh. I am still sending in some 70's and 80's to CSG just to get a reference on the grade to possibly resub to PSA later.

Will do! So far I only have 1 in route but I think I'll add another 2 or 3 in the next batch.

[kon jelly]

Originally Posted by TSonn

So basically - I'm more comfortable buying CSG slabs over PSA slabs because I think it's a more accurate opinion on the card condition but way more comfortable selling PSA slabs over CSG slabs because of the perception of PSA 9s and 10s.

I would agree with this. I try to buy CSG slabs as often as I can at this point simply because they can be had at much better prices.

I'll still submit with CSG, though. I've had much better luck with my submissions than others have I guess. Last submission of 11 cards had one 8.5, three 9s, and seven 9.5s. I thought one of the 9s was borderline, and really thought one of the 9.5s could have been a 10, but overall I thought the grades were fair.

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by mrgant

Please detail your experience cracking the CSG cards and resubbing to PSA. I love the CSG labels and look, but man, they are harsh. I am still sending in some 70's and 80's to CSG just to get a reference on the grade to possibly resub to PSA later.

From my searches online, CSG seems to be grading older cards differently and more leniently. For instance, you can look up a 1977 Andre Dawson RC CSG 9.5 on eBay. It is a beautiful card; however it would be lucky to get a PSA 9. It almost seems to be they have different standards for grading older cards versus ultra-modern. They do seem to be tightening up vintage standards from what I have been seeing on eBay, but buying 1980's and older CSG slabs to cross over to PSA is not a good idea.

Ultra-modern CSG appears to grade really tough and makes good candidates to cross over. "Vintage" they seem to be lenient. It is almost like they are two separate grading companies.

[PunsRTonsOfFun]

Originally Posted by TSonn

So basically - I'm more comfortable buying CSG slabs over PSA slabs because I think it's a more accurate opinion on the card condition but way more comfortable selling PSA slabs over CSG slabs because of the perception of PSA 9s and 10s.

In time, the second part of this statement is going to change because of the first part of this statement.

[TSonn]

Originally Posted by PunsRTonsOfFun

In time, the second part of this statement is going to change because of the first part of this statement.

Yeah maybe!

[jjcan]

CSG preferred choice of EBAY????

[PunsRTonsOfFun]

Originally Posted by jjcan

CSG preferred choice of EBAY????

I saw this. It's actually great news and the hobby will be better for it. Higher standards never hurt anyone. If you kept a card in a screwdown holder too long, it won't get graded by CSG. They'll return it as altered. Their tech for finding altered cards and fakes is light years ahead of the competition.

[YayNJ]

Originally Posted by jjcan

CSG preferred choice of EBAY????

Cream rises to the top

[tyrith]

I was all about CSG until recently, but I don't see how the market is going to favor them if the baseline for a modern card is that it's an 8.5 out of the pack. I know for me, and I suspect this is pretty broadly true, there is a pretty major psychological difference going down from 9 to 8.5 - this has definitely been true with my CGC Pokemon slabs. And I don't think any amount of actual card quality difference is going to change that enough to get the market to overcome the mental resistence.

Either our new Fanatics overlords are going to need to fix the endemic printline issues Topps has had the last couple of years, or they're going to need to lighten up a stitch. And I do mean a stitch - the grading standards of a few months ago seem to be much more broadly consistent with industry standards than where they are now. But been ultra picky just doesn't seem like it's going to help their value long term, and it's making me skittish after really believing in them since the start.

[MarkyVersace]

I had a few 8s and 8.5s in my original bulks last year that I didnt expect, but generally i havent had a terrible time with grades from CSG. I received plenty of 9s and 9.5s, and three Pristine 10s (with no sub grades). Just sent them a Topps Chrome F1 card and a UEFA Mosaic card (both sets with QC issues) and got a 9.5 on the F1 card (all 9.5s except 9 on surface) and a 9 on the mosaic with one 9.5 sub on it.

Maybe ive just been lucky *shrug*

btw i sent those two economy with subs midway through december 2021 and received back jan 11th. very quick turnaround

[PunsRTonsOfFun]

Originally Posted by tyrith

but I don't see how the market is going to favor them if the baseline for a modern card is that it's an 8.5 out of the pack.

I think you’re giving Topps and Panini too much credit to think that every pack fresh card is a 9 or Gem. I had a 50 card submission to CSG and had a 40% gem rate with one 10. They are very tough but equally fair. If you want to take the easy road with your cards, there are plenty of other grading options.


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[YayNJ]

Originally Posted by tyrith

I was all about CSG until recently, but I don't see how the market is going to favor them if the baseline for a modern card is that it's an 8.5 out of the pack.

If this is your attitude, then the issue is 100% you - not a grading company.

most modern cards from the past couple of years (covid years) are pretty bad. There's a company called HGA that are pretty much giving away 10's to stay afloat at the moment, try those?

[tyrith]

Originally Posted by YayNJ

If this is your attitude, then the issue is 100% you - not a grading company.

most modern cards from the past couple of years (covid years) are pretty bad. There's a company called HGA that are pretty much giving away 10's to stay afloat at the moment, try those?

My point is that, for the same card quality, if one company is mostly giving 9s and the other is mostly giving 8.5s, it's going to be really tough for the company giving 8.5s to make headway. There's a big psychological wall at that point, and you can see it from all companies, in all types of cards.

That's going to have likely permanent resale value effects. Trust me, I WANT CSG to be the best in class company, but as has been mentioned, an 8.5 is going to sell for raw card value. From what people have been saying about their subs, it feels like there's been an incremental tightening in their standards lately that, if true, seems to be unwarranted to me and will negatively impact the brand. My hope is that my impression is wrong. And I say this as someone that, on the CGC side of the house, has generally been able to very consistently anticipate the grades I will get within a half point.

Also, there's just no need to take a jerkish tone. We're all just trying to figure out how to best proceed with the myriad of options here. Don't assume bad motives for me, and I'll endeavor to do the same.

[KhalDrogo]

The goal of any TCG should be to assign the correct grade based on their standards. From TSonn’s experience, those CSG standards have changed recently. And the cards are being assigned grades that are lower than what he expected based on past experience. Not sure why some people are celebrating that.

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

The goal of any TCG should be to assign the correct grade based on their standards. From TSonn’s experience, those CSG standards have changed recently. And the cards are being assigned grades that are lower than what he expected based on past experience. Not sure why some people are celebrating that.

I am still kicking myself for not buying a CSG 5.5 Jim Hunter rookie for $60 on COMC yesterday. It really seems that CSG has tightened up their vintage grading to align with the competition and not with BVG.

This does cause problems though. Six months ago, CSG was grading vintage absolutely horrifically. I saw CSG 6 and 7's that looked horrific, pen markings on the back of the card, and with stains. Recently they have been much better. The issue is though you don't know if you are buying a recently graded card or something from the beginning.

Consistency is key for any grading company, and we haven't had it recently. PSA got really tough in 2020 and then when Nat took over, I saw a big difference in grading. SGC from my experience started grading vintage differently the last year or so. They used to grade it more leniently, but then started to apply the same standards they use for modern. When we buy graded cards now, it is not just the company that matters. You need to research when the card was graded. Sometimes it is easy with different labels, but that is not always the case.

[PunsRTonsOfFun]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

The goal of any TCG should be to assign the correct grade based on their standards. From TSonn’s experience, those CSG standards have changed recently. And the cards are being assigned grades that are lower than what he expected based on past experience. Not sure why some people are celebrating that.

People are celebrating that we finally have a grading company (CSG) with high standards and the technology to identify fake and altered cards. That’s exciting given the mediocrity we’ve grown accustomed to with the other grading companies.


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[YayNJ]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

The goal of any TCG should be to assign the correct grade based on their standards. From TSonn’s experience, those CSG standards have changed recently. And the cards are being assigned grades that are lower than what he expected based on past experience. Not sure why some people are celebrating that.

I was reading in another thread a person celebrating that PSA are soft on print lines.

Thank goodness CSG take grading seriously.

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by PunsRTonsOfFun

People are celebrating that we finally have a grading company (CSG) with high standards and the technology to identify fake and altered cards. That’s exciting given the mediocrity we’ve grown accustomed to with the other grading companies.


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Nobody is celebrating that. I just see a lot of people complaining about how tough they are. Most cards graded by CSG should be in the 9 to 10 range. People are now opening cards with gloves directly from packs, wiping them down with microfiber cloths, carefully putting them in penny sleeves/Card Savers, and directly mailing them to grading companies. The quality control isn't great for these companies, but it is a lot better than it has been in the past. We are at the point where to grade cards we have to magnify them at 100x to distinguish them from each other, so they all don't get 10's. This is getting silly IMO. Grading vintage from 1 to 8 is fine, there is variation there. Then the 9,10 vintage cards could likely be trimmed. This pack fresh grading of modern is absolutely ridiculous at the moment. We need to pop control, so every card is not valuable. Companies now have to have fake Pristine and Perfect labels to make the same card 10 x's the price.

[YayNJ]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

Nobody is celebrating that. I just see a lot of people complaining about how tough they are. Most cards graded by CSG should be in the 9 to 10 range. People are now opening cards with gloves directly from packs, wiping them down with microfiber cloths, carefully putting them in penny sleeves/Card Savers, and directly mailing them to grading companies.

I genuinely have to question just how much product you have actually opened in the past few years. Out of a standard hobby, you would be lucky to come away with one, maybe two cards that are worth sending off.

Suggesting that most cards right out of a pack should be perfect or near as is absolutely absurd. We live in the age of terrible centering, bent corners, dimples and print lines.

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by YayNJ

I genuinely have to question just how much product you have actually opened in the past few years. Out of a standard hobby, you would be lucky to come away with one, maybe two cards that are worth sending off.

Suggesting that most cards right out of a pack should be perfect or near as is absolutely absurd. We live in the age of terrible centering, bent corners, dimples and print lines.

The cards that people are sending in with the current pricing of grading are scrutinized. Certain products are horrible, and some are really good. I am not saying pack fresh = 10. I am saying that the cards being sent in by educated graders are all really good. Of course, you have people like SCI who opens up a box of 1988 Fleer and sends them all in expecting 10's. But the people who submit regularly here know what they are doing. I think you are exaggerating this here, "Out of a standard hobby, you would be lucky to come away with one, maybe two cards that are worth sending off." Maybe that is true because of the common cards, but not because of the condition of the cards.

With the current prices of even low-level product, cards are handled extremely different than when I was a kid in the junk wax era. We are at a bizarre point in the hobby. BGS started that "Black Label" nonsense and all companies have to follow to create fake value. Creating labels like Pristine and Perfect is complete nonsense. All it does is create corruption in the hobby. Having a high-level grader give a Perfect grade to a friend or two could easily happen. Makes them a lot of money. People joke about PSA creating a PSA 11 label. I respect PSA for not creating a category over Gem Mint.

[PunsRTonsOfFun]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

BGS started that "Black Label" nonsense and all companies have to follow to create fake value. Creating labels like Pristine and Perfect is complete nonsense. All it does is create corruption in the hobby. Having a high-level grader give a Perfect grade to a friend or two could easily happen. Makes them a lot of money. People joke about PSA creating a PSA 11 label. I respect PSA for not creating a category over Gem Mint.

PSA's Gem Mint designation is says it's a "virtually perfect" card that allows for "a slight printing imperfection." The problem with PSA's Gem Mint designation is how lax the centering standard is. If that's the "Gem Mint" standard, why shouldn't there be a higher designation for cards with no printing imperfections and perfect centering front and back? An actual perfect card.

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by PunsRTonsOfFun

PSA's Gem Mint designation is says it's a "virtually perfect" card that allows for "a slight printing imperfection." The problem with PSA's Gem Mint designation is how lax the centering standard is. If that's the "Gem Mint" standard, why shouldn't there be a higher designation for cards with no printing imperfections and perfect centering front and back? An actual perfect card.

That does not exist.

What happens when a card is better than another perfect card? Do we need to put a sticker on it by a third party?

[YayNJ]

This is my last small CSG sub, these literally popped yesterday.

[kon jelly]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

The goal of any TCG should be to assign the correct grade based on their standards. From TSonn’s experience, those CSG standards have changed recently. And the cards are being assigned grades that are lower than what he expected based on past experience. Not sure why some people are celebrating that.

I've had quite a few subs with them. The standards haven't changed.

[tyrith]

Last couple of posts definitely help. I'm torn between CSG and SGC for sending in a swath of PC cards here soon - autos in the 50-500 range from a single set. Registry is attractive, but SGC through group sub is down to being almost the same price after the auto cert upcharge, and SGC is advertising a significantly faster turnaround time.

I have a few nicer PC cards with CSG right now - I'll probably wind up waiting to see how those go before I pull the trigger on more.