First Buzz: 2020-21 Panini Mosaic basketball cards

[k13]

Originally Posted by mossoholic

No one replies on facebook because for the average buyer this stuff is dead. No one collects anymore. The lowest percentage of people collect right now than any other time in history. If people don't think they can turn a profit they aren't buying. I had more people messaging me on facebook probably any 2 week period from mid 2020 until early 2021 then I have had total the last give or take 12 weeks. What does that tell you? I've sold endless amounts of stuff the last 3 months and at least 95% of it has been to breakers and shops. In terms of just wax it way be pretty close to 100%. There are a couple guys I don't know if they were breakers or not. It's pretty hilarious when big shops are paying as much or more than your average buyer off ebay and they usually buy in bulk.

Exactly True.

[bustsomewax]

Originally Posted by Grizzkid12

I bought it to rip.

We all know ripping is a losing proposition on the vast majority of products (but a fun one).

I just keep stating that I think this is LESS of a losing proposition to rip than most hobby releases of late.

Yes, but you said we were acting like fools and one of better buys since Classics (an online only release with no manipulation btw).

It's one thing to say its worth it to you to lose money for the fun of ripping a new hobby box, but to think that's sound logic for everyone is where we diverge significantly.

[Grizzkid12]

Originally Posted by mossoholic

Not wanting to buy 19-20 Hoops Premium sets? I have 80 of them. Couldn't even break even right now if I bought them all at MSRP. The vast majority my average price is like $215. So bloodbath city. I wish I would have bought none of them.

No one replies on facebook because for the average buyer this stuff is dead. No one collects anymore. The lowest percentage of people collect right now than any other time in history. If people don't think they can turn a profit they aren't buying. I had more people messaging me on facebook probably any 2 week period from mid 2020 until early 2021 then I have had total the last give or take 12 weeks. What does that tell you? I've sold endless amounts of stuff the last 3 months and at least 95% of it has been to breakers and shops. In terms of just wax it way be pretty close to 100%. There are a couple guys I don't know if they were breakers or not. It's pretty hilarious when big shops are paying as much or more than your average buyer off ebay and they usually buy in bulk.

We were disagreeing about those sets on here, the day they were released on Target.com (at MSRP). You could have made plenty had you not held onto them until mid 2021 or later. Sealed sets were selling well until then and people were breaking them down and selling the singles for profit early on.

I agree with the rest you stated above, but most of the issues you're currently having with interest is honestly on you for buying cards/wax that people don't have interest in and loading up on that. Also not building some sort of following or business relationships with consistent buyers because you likely were trying to make every penny, even when times were good is probably biting you in the butt now.

Anyone with a pulse, half a brain and a little bit of free time in this hobby easily made 6 figures last year and is likely on the way to doing that again this year (albeit at more of a grind). If you're not doing that, I suggest you offload what you have, move onto other things and view sports cards solely as a hobby, not a source of income.

[CR69]

I bought a case at the floor. I'm happy with it.

[Grizzkid12]

Originally Posted by bustsomewax

Yes, but you said we were acting like fools and one of better buys since Classics (an online only release with no manipulation btw).

It's one thing to say its worth it to you to lose money for the fun of ripping a new hobby box, but to think that's sound logic for everyone is where we diverge significantly.

Ok, that's a fair point.

I was honestly just surprised by all of the outrage in here at sellout price when i checked the thread earlier.

I've usually been on the same page as the vast majority of people on here in terms of sellout pricing, but this is the first one I've disagreed with the masses in a bit.

I do see what you're saying though. My logic for FOTL releases is to have a fun rip where I think the floor isn't too low. For someone looking to resell or hold sealed their logic may differ for sure

[Bob Ross]

[mossoholic]

Originally Posted by Grizzkid12

We were disagreeing about those sets on here, the day they were released on Target.com (at MSRP). You could have made plenty had you not held onto them until mid 2021 or later. Sealed sets were selling well until then and people were breaking them down and selling the singles for profit early on.

I agree with the rest you stated above, but most of the issues you're currently having with interest is honestly on you for buying cards/wax that people don't have interest in and loading up on that. Also not building some sort of following or business relationships with consistent buyers because you likely were trying to make every penny, even when times were good is probably biting you in the butt now.

Anyone with a pulse, half a brain and a little bit of free time in this hobby easily made 6 figures last year and is likely on the way to doing that again this year (albeit at more of a grind). If you're not doing that, I suggest you offload what you have, move onto other things and view sports cards solely as a hobby, not a source of income.

Honestly, it doesn't matter what I do lol. Here is a prime example. Every single year Select has outsold Spectra. 19-20 Spectra FOTL was the best Spectra has ever been. First year Color Blast, amazing looking cards, 2.5 RPA/RJA and a low numbered one that could be /3 per FOTL box compared to only 1 RJA per hobby. Yet somehow FOTL barely outsells hobby. 19-20 Select outsells Spectra by a landslide. I had a bunch of Spectra FOTL I held and the Select I had I sold way too low.

2020-21 I buy all Select FOTL and no 20-21 Spectra FOTL. Which do you think sells for more? I have no clue if the Spectra breaks are as good as 19-20 (I highly doubt they are) but regardless it makes no sense whatsoever that 20-21 Spectra FOTL outsells 2020-21 Select FOTL. I'm the only common denominator.

[phil]

3000 box print run "sold", an hour later grand total of 3 boxes listed on ebay. Oh well.

[Grizzkid12]

Originally Posted by mossoholic

Honestly, it doesn't matter what I do lol. Here is a prime example. Every single year Select has outsold Spectra. 19-20 Spectra FOTL was the best Spectra has ever been. First year Color Blast, amazing looking cards, 2.5 RPA/RJA and a low numbered one that could be /3 per FOTL box compared to only 1 RJA per hobby. Yet somehow FOTL barely outsells hobby. 19-20 Select outsells Spectra by a landslide. I had a bunch of Spectra FOTL I held and the Select I had I sold way too low.

2020-21 I buy all Select FOTL and no 20-21 Spectra FOTL. Which do you think sells for more? I have no clue if the Spectra breaks are as good as 19-20 (I highly doubt they are) but regardless it makes no sense whatsoever that 20-21 Spectra FOTL outsells 2020-21 Select FOTL. I'm the only common denominator.

I'll tell you what the common denominator is (and it's not you)

Retail has hurt select. Select had always been my favorite product up until this year (over Prizm Optic, etc) but now it's kinda meh to me. Feels watered down with retail and all of the parallels, etc. Courtsides used to be a tough pull and sell for a bit, but with the amount of retail printed they're a dime a dozen now. Also Select NFL felt printed to the moon as well. The product has been trending down for a bit

Spectra on the other hand has been trending up. In 18/19 most people didn't like the product, but for 19/20 Panini changed designs and added color blasts and the public opinion changed on Spectra. 2020 Spectra Football was also a fun rip, so the product line in general has been trending up. It's as simple as that imo, not a Moss curse.

[t6p]

Originally Posted by mossoholic

Honestly, it doesn't matter what I do lol. Here is a prime example. Every single year Select has outsold Spectra. 19-20 Spectra FOTL was the best Spectra has ever been. First year Color Blast, amazing looking cards, 2.5 RPA/RJA and a low numbered one that could be /3 per FOTL box compared to only 1 RJA per hobby. Yet somehow FOTL barely outsells hobby. 19-20 Select outsells Spectra by a landslide. I had a bunch of Spectra FOTL I held and the Select I had I sold way too low.

2020-21 I buy all Select FOTL and no 20-21 Spectra FOTL. Which do you think sells for more? I have no clue if the Spectra breaks are as good as 19-20 (I highly doubt they are) but regardless it makes no sense whatsoever that 20-21 Spectra FOTL outsells 2020-21 Select FOTL. I'm the only common denominator.

IIRC the Select FOTL floor was $750 and Spectra FOTL was $1187. Select is now selling in the $1500 range and Spectra in the $2000 range. Even if you got in one drop above the floor on Select (which I think most did) your ROI would still be better than Spectra.

[BlockShotStop]

Originally Posted by Grizzkid12

We were disagreeing about those sets on here, the day they were released on Target.com (at MSRP). You could have made plenty had you not held onto them until mid 2021 or later. Sealed sets were selling well until then and people were breaking them down and selling the singles for profit early on.

I agree with the rest you stated above, but most of the issues you're currently having with interest is honestly on you for buying cards/wax that people don't have interest in and loading up on that. Also not building some sort of following or business relationships with consistent buyers because you likely were trying to make every penny, even when times were good is probably biting you in the butt now.

Anyone with a pulse, half a brain and a little bit of free time in this hobby easily made 6 figures last year and is likely on the way to doing that again this year (albeit at more of a grind). If you're not doing that, I suggest you offload what you have, move onto other things and view sports cards solely as a hobby, not a source of income.

LOL at all you "moguls" on this message board just raking it in on sports cards. Pardon me if I find that hard to believe. Would love to see those tax returns where you are claiming that as reportable income!

Does anyone actually enjoy themselves on here? Must be cool obsessing over every dollar and arguing with strangers over something I thought was supposed to be fun.

[Grizzkid12]

Originally Posted by BlockShotStop

LOL at all you "moguls" on this message board just raking it in on sports cards. Pardon me if I find that hard to believe. Would love to see those tax returns where you are claiming that as reportable income!

Does anyone actually enjoy themselves on here? Must be cool obsessing over every dollar and arguing with strangers over something I thought was supposed to be fun.

My entire argument in this thread up until that post was about how I had just spent $700+ on a product solely due to my enjoyment of ripping, but didn't think that was a bad buy.

Oh, and I did pay taxes on all of that reportable income in 2020 after finding a new CPA solely for my business and will be paying even more this year. Thanks for your concern though!

[BlockShotStop]

Originally Posted by Grizzkid12

My entire argument in this thread up until that post was about how I had just spent $700+ on a product solely due to my enjoyment of ripping, but didn't think that was a bad buy.

Oh, and I did pay taxes on all of that reportable income in 2020 after finding a new CPA solely for my business and will be paying even more this year. Thanks for your concern though!

I’m on your side on everything (except the “six figures” thing, which I think is a pretty big overreach). You liked a product, so you bought it. You don’t have to justify your ROI to anyone. And since you’re ripping, there’s a really good chance the price you just paid is the cheapest that you could get that specific box. More power to you.

I just chuckle at all these wannabe Boiler Room types talking about moving such and such product. It’s, quite frankly, a joke.

[Bob Ross]

This is a fun thread. I like it.

[Grizzkid12]

Originally Posted by BlockShotStop

I’m on your side on everything (except the “six figures” thing, which I think is a pretty big overreach). You liked a product, so you bought it. You don’t have to justify your ROI to anyone. And since you’re ripping, there’s a really good chance the price you just paid is the cheapest that you could get that specific box. More power to you.

I just chuckle at all these wannabe Boiler Room types talking about moving such and such product. It’s, quite frankly, a joke.

Ok, I get you bud

I do think it is possible to have both; Make a good living from this hobby, but also be able to turn it off once in awhile and buy something for pure enjoyment and not potential financial gain. I do understand everyone is in this hobby for different reasons though.

[beavers]

My only two cents here:

1. this did actually sell out

2. Base cards have become worthless, especially with no reasonable grading prices.

3. Due to falling base prices retail is no longer superior in value to hobby/fotl.

The market has changed drastically, multiple times, in the past 3 years. If you are ripping for value retail isn’t the best place for your dollars anymore. Of course this is all IMO but there is a reason the shelves are full of retail and that these products are still selling out. The smart money has already moved.

[BlockShotStop]

Originally Posted by Bob Ross

This is a fun thread. I like it.

These First Buzz threads are all the same. A bunch of people run to post that the product is “trash,” Panini is the “worst,” and that they’d never buy it in a million years. Then, those same people show back up when the boxes go on sale to say how they’d only buy at a “certain” price. If they buy at any price, whether higher or lower than what they originally said, they proclaim a great victory and their investing genius. If they don’t buy, anyone who did is a moron and sure to be roaming the streets homeless and begging for charity.

Inevitably, a disagreement will arise regarding the economics of the release for buyers. At that point, people start making wild proclamations about how much money they will or won’t make. Some people will be snarky and pretend that they are some scion of cardboard, the Warren Buffett of buying and selling pieces of sparkly paper with (mostly) men printed on the front. These folks will tell you how they’ve gotten rich in three easy steps in the “HOBBY” (that term used unironically).

Rinse, repeat ad infinitum.

Most don’t actually play, watch, or care about the game or the cards. They are invertorzzzzzzz riding a rocket ship to the moooon.

[mfw13]

There's really no point in releasing a product like this almost a year late, and after the following season has started.

Half the players in the base checklist aren't even with the same team any more....

[mossoholic]

Originally Posted by Grizzkid12

I'll tell you what the common denominator is (and it's not you)

Retail has hurt select. Select had always been my favorite product up until this year (over Prizm Optic, etc) but now it's kinda meh to me. Feels watered down with retail and all of the parallels, etc. Courtsides used to be a tough pull and sell for a bit, but with the amount of retail printed they're a dime a dozen now. Also Select NFL felt printed to the moon as well. The product has been trending down for a bit

Spectra on the other hand has been trending up. In 18/19 most people didn't like the product, but for 19/20 Panini changed designs and added color blasts and the public opinion changed on Spectra. 2020 Spectra Football was also a fun rip, so the product line in general has been trending up. It's as simple as that imo, not a Moss curse.

Lol then explain why 2020 Select Football FOTL is higher than 2020 Spectra Football FOTL?!?! Hell, I'd argue 2020 Select football retail was printed as much as any retail product ever. More than 20-21 Select basketball retail. The Spectra football wax is actually hard to come by whereas there have been way more sealed boxes of the Select available for sale this year. I think there is 1 Spectra box on ebay right now. At one point a month or so ago there wasn't a single 2020 Spectra Football FOTL box on ebay for weeks. But Select FOTL sells higher. It's the reverse midas touch! Simple as that.

Back on the Mosaic, if you wanted it at that price good for you! I just didn't like you saying it was this amazing deal because it's not. Good luck ripping it.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by BlockShotStop

These First Buzz threads are all the same. A bunch of people run to post that the product is “trash,” Panini is the “worst,” and that they’d never buy it in a million years. Then, those same people show back up when the boxes go on sale to say how they’d only buy at a “certain” price. If they buy at any price, whether higher or lower than what they originally said, they proclaim a great victory and their investing genius. If they don’t buy, anyone who did is a moron and sure to be roaming the streets homeless and begging for charity.

Inevitably, a disagreement will arise regarding the economics of the release for buyers. At that point, people start making wild proclamations about how much money they will or won’t make. Some people will be snarky and pretend that they are some scion of cardboard, the Warren Buffett of buying and selling pieces of sparkly paper with (mostly) men printed on the front. These folks will tell you how they’ve gotten rich in three easy steps in the “HOBBY” (that term used unironically).

Rinse, repeat ad infinitum.

Most don’t actually play, watch, or care about the game or the cards. They are invertorzzzzzzz riding a rocket ship to the moooon.

I mean, most of us were around when the market was crap. Back when Prizm boxes were $40-50.

Plus many of us were around in the 90s too.

But go on…

Originally Posted by mfw13

There's really no point in releasing a product like this almost a year late, and after the following season has started.

Half the players in the base checklist aren't even with the same team any more....

Its not a year late. When did 19-20 Mosaic come out last year? Summer or so? Its a few months late pal.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by mc1

Its not a year late. When did 19-20 Mosaic come out last year? Summer or so? Its a few months late pal.

End of April. So it’s seven months later than last year.

[TimBuckTwo]

Yes Mosaic Money train last year started around Apr/May.

And it was lovely.

[Allamericancard]

alright so reading through.....

people saying it's panini stop. This is the big 3 of blowout, steel city and Dave and adams doing this. sadly panini is a business and then someone comes to you and says hey if x product gets to x price pull it and we will buy it all at that price, why would they say no? A business is out to make money, point blank period.

sure panini makes more $ by pulling this for the big 3 but make NO MISTAKE the big 3 stand to lose more money EVERYTIME a Dutch auction for fotl drops a level lower then their presell prices.

the big 3 are artificially keeping Boxes prices high because of this and it's just a trickle down effect. LCS price off of the big 3 prices so there's no way around it for us.

[beavers]

Originally Posted by Allamericancard

alright so reading through.....

people saying it's panini stop. This is the big 3 of blowout, steel city and Dave and adams doing this. sadly panini is a business and then someone comes to you and says hey if x product gets to x price pull it and we will buy it all at that price, why would they say no? A business is out to make money, point blank period.

sure panini makes more $ by pulling this for the big 3 but make NO MISTAKE the big 3 stand to lose more money EVERYTIME a Dutch auction for fotl drops a level lower then their presell prices.

the big 3 are artificially keeping Boxes prices high because of this and it's just a trickle down effect. LCS price off of the big 3 prices so there's no way around it for us.

Imagine how much the big 3 would stand to lose if they bought all of these products from panini above true market. There is no margin in that, what a terrible way to use cash flow from a business standpoint.

[Hoopscardz83]

Originally Posted by BlockShotStop

These First Buzz threads are all the same. A bunch of people run to post that the product is “trash,” Panini is the “worst,” and that they’d never buy it in a million years. Then, those same people show back up when the boxes go on sale to say how they’d only buy at a “certain” price. If they buy at any price, whether higher or lower than what they originally said, they proclaim a great victory and their investing genius. If they don’t buy, anyone who did is a moron and sure to be roaming the streets homeless and begging for charity.

Inevitably, a disagreement will arise regarding the economics of the release for buyers. At that point, people start making wild proclamations about how much money they will or won’t make. Some people will be snarky and pretend that they are some scion of cardboard, the Warren Buffett of buying and selling pieces of sparkly paper with (mostly) men printed on the front. These folks will tell you how they’ve gotten rich in three easy steps in the “HOBBY” (that term used unironically).

Rinse, repeat ad infinitum.

Most don’t actually play, watch, or care about the game or the cards. They are invertorzzzzzzz riding a rocket ship to the moooon.

You're pretty much on point on your entire argument and comments. Nice to see someone get it on here. I agree with the last part. I love basketball and played competitive ball for a long time and covered the Celtics for years.

Most people(not all) on this forum know jack or care. I see baseball dudes on the walmart and target threads crying about missing basketball releases. They're just mad about the money they missed not scoring.