PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

So are the victims of this going to contact PSA about their guarantee? Seems PSA should refund the entire amount they paid in exchange for the card. If they refuse, seems like you could sue the pants off them and add some punitive damages.

great point.

i hope they are able to find out about what is being talked about here

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

great point.

i hope they are able to find out about what is being talked about here

Yes, this highlights why this information needs to be broadened beyond BO.

I still think Darren Rovell would be a good target with this information. I think the dollar amount is high enough and we're talking about a publicly traded company that it may get his attention.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by superdan49

The question is whether trimming and recoloring constitutes criminal fraud or is a civil matter. I'll defer to the lawyers on here on that question. The second question is whether federal investigators and prosecutors are actually motivated enough to learn about this hobby in order to fully understand what is going on here.

Agent John Ferreira who spearheaded Operation Bullpen was a collector himself. I think it will take someone who understands the hobby to seriously move this forward.

From the Department of Justice.

18 U.S.C. Section 1341—Elements of Mail Fraud

"There are two elements in mail fraud: (1) having devised or intending to devise a scheme to defraud (or to perform specified fraudulent acts), and (2) use of the mail for the purpose of executing, or attempting to execute, the scheme (or specified fraudulent acts)." Schmuck v. United States, 489 U.S. 705, 721 n. 10 (1989); see also Pereira v. United States, 347 U.S. 1, 8 (1954) ("The elements of the offense of mail fraud under . . . § 1341 are (1) a scheme to defraud, and (2) the mailing of a letter, etc., for the purpose of executing the scheme.")

Wire fraud is pretty much the same, for fraud involving use of the "wires" which now includes the Internet.

So yeah.

[GatorPie]

I can't possibly see what PSA's argument could be. These are clearly trimmed cards with photographic evidence. So, to the letter of their guarantee, they would have to pay out the difference between the market value of the number grade and the value of a "Authentic - Altered" designation.

Frankly, since I have doubts any criminal charges are going to filed against anyone, perhaps THIS is the way to get PSA to step up their game - make them pay out hundreds of thousands of dollars to people that were sold altered cards.

[KhalDrogo]

Before the next earnings call, I will be reaching out to an analyst who has covered CLCT previously to see what his interest is. Unfortunately, not just anybody can hop on an earnings call and start asking questions.

I do believe that we have proven this issue is of enough financial risk to CLCT that it should be publicly disclosed by the company.

[GatorPie]

I find myself thinking of technology when it comes to this stuff. You take a 70 year old card and slice a side off of it. Does the newly-exposed cardboard present with any kind of a lighter color? Are there no lighting techniques that could quickly expose cardboard that is "more fresh"? I just find it hard to believe that it's totally undetectable.

Here's something else I thought about. PSA/DNA uses an invisible ink on autographs that have been authenticated. Is there any reason (other the the fact that it's ink on a card) that PSA couldn't do this with cards? It could provide a way to quickly show them that the card has been in their possession before. They are already using the damn technology.

[Bigbluesooner]

Originally Posted by superdan49

David Seideman is more cheerleader than journalist and should not be taken seriously as an industry reporter.

Well I sent him this

"Have you heard about the massive trimming and fraud being uncovered concerning PWCC and PSA on the Blowout Cards forums? Might be something worth checking out. As a collector I'm sure you might find it to be quite a story potentially involving millions of dollars in fraud."

Let's see if he responds

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Bigbluesooner

Well I sent him this

"Have you heard about the massive trimming and fraud being uncovered concerning PWCC and PSA on the Blowout Cards forums? Might be something worth checking out. As a collector I'm sure you might find it to be quite a story potentially involving millions of dollars in fraud."

Let's see if he responds

He posted on one of the 54 threads. He's aware of it.

"This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer."

and

"Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent. "

Good luck with your note to him LOL.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Bigbluesooner

Well I sent him this

"Have you heard about the massive trimming and fraud being uncovered concerning PWCC and PSA on the Blowout Cards forums? Might be something worth checking out. As a collector I'm sure you might find it to be quite a story potentially involving millions of dollars in fraud."

Let's see if he responds

"what's Blowout Cards forums?"

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

"what's Blowout Cards forums?"

What's Facebook?

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

What's Facebook?

sure, most of society has never heard of Facebook. got it.

[Bigbluesooner]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

"what's Blowout Cards forums?"

[HarryLime]

If I'm PSA and IF it's PWCC that is submitting Moser's cards, I'm lawyering up and pursuing civil action against PWCC. And if that's the case, I'm not releasing any statements about anything.

Arthur

[Bigbluesooner]

Originally Posted by pspa123

He posted on one of the 54 threads. He's aware of it.

"This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer."

and

"Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent. "

Good luck with your note to him LOL.

HA! Well I wont hold my breath.

[cking]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

I can't possibly see what PSA's argument could be. These are clearly trimmed cards with photographic evidence.

Before and after pictures are not evidence

#PWCC

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

If I'm PSA and IF it's PWCC that is submitting Moser's cards, I'm lawyering up and pursuing civil action against PWCC. And if that's the case, I'm not releasing any statements about anything.

Arthur

I agree with this, and I believe (hope) something along these lines is happening behind the scenes.

[GatorPie]

Originally Posted by cking

Before and after pictures are not evidence

#PWCC

Well, that was PWCC's stance. I doubt PSA could weasel out of their guarantee with the same sentiment.

[HarryLime]

Yeah, just about all of his Forbes articles are about or only reference PWCC. He's acting as a promotional vehicle for PWCC, not a journalist.

He wrote an article about the $99k Jeter HALFWAY THROUGH THE AUCTION. Huh? I mean, if your goal is to talk about it as a result don't you wait until the end to see what it sells for? But if your goal is to move traffic to PWCC's auction, you write the article with 4 days to go.

Journalist? Ha. Snake oil salesman.

Arthur

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

If I'm PSA and IF it's PWCC that is submitting Moser's cards, I'm lawyering up and pursuing civil action against PWCC. And if that's the case, I'm not releasing any statements about anything.

Arthur

PSA should pursue civil action against Moser and anyone knowingly submitting cards on his behalf.

However, I don't see them pursuing this if it is PWCC. They probably figure the good outweighs the bad with PWCC. Look at all the glowing press coverage PSA got through the PWCC sale of the PMG Green Jordan. I'm sure a lot more high-dollar guys have taken a look at sports cards, particularly PSA graded sports cards, as a result of that sale.

[GatorPie]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

If I'm PSA and IF it's PWCC that is submitting Moser's cards, I'm lawyering up and pursuing civil action against PWCC. And if that's the case, I'm not releasing any statements about anything.

Arthur

How would PSA have a civil action against anyone? It's THEIR job to catch altered cards no matter who is submitting them.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

How would PSA have a civil action against anyone? It's THEIR job to catch altered cards no matter who is submitting them.

Breach of the submission agreement, and fraud. But I would be surprised if they sue PWCC.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

What's Facebook?

My Mom still pronounces it as two distinctly enunciated words, "Why aren't you on Face Book?"

[LSUNatChamps]

Originally Posted by pspa123

He posted on one of the 54 threads. He's aware of it.

"This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer."

and

"Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent. "

Good luck with your note to him LOL.

His comment "Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets" coupled with the amount of cross-promotion PWCC has received from the likes of Forbes, PSA themselves, and others doesn't sit well with me.

Brent has been aggressively pushing cards as an investment, creating a "card index", talking about cards as an alternative asset class, etc., not to mention the creation of The Vault which supports these ideas. All of these new "cards as an investment" themes pushed by PWCC rely on a very healthy market supported by a few things: 1). Plenty of liquidity 2). High dollar prices commanded for said assets 3). Positive, glowing press to continue the cycle

This is why I don't believe the connection between Moser (and possibly others as has been pointed out earlier) and PWCC is merely coincidental. The inflated prices being paid (and who knows if they are even real or not) help justify the very existence of PWCC's push to make cards a true alternative asset class.

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by pspa123

He posted on one of the 54 threads. He's aware of it.

"This thread seems to be full of hearsay and innuendo. I was screwed royally before the advent of grading. Based on my 50 years in the hobby, I believe PWCC has been completely above board. I am a happy customer."

and

"Brent deserves credit for elevating cards to the status of assets, continuing a trend begun by Jefferson Burdick. If anyone on this site is giving away their cards, please let me know. More power to Brent. "

Good luck with your note to him LOL.

I hope he was challenged on net54 to explain how he was "screwed royally before the advent of grading". Not much problems out there other than a counterfeit Rose rookie and 1984 Donruss Mattingly. Hard to image he was screwed. A good journalist should be objective, it does not sound like he is because he likes to be close with those he considers important - dealers, grading companies, etc.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Before the next earnings call, I will be reaching out to an analyst who has covered CLCT previously to see what his interest is. Unfortunately, not just anybody can hop on an earnings call and start asking questions.

I do believe that we have proven this issue is of enough financial risk to CLCT that it should be publicly disclosed by the company.

This is a great approach. Thanks for pursuing. I had a similar thought and was trying to track down current Wall Street analysts who cover the stock but there does not appear to be any analysts currently covering CLCT.