A Very Important Paypal Dispute Learning Experience

[Blake711]

Originally Posted by pgisback

The buyer did not receive what you claimed to be selling him.

Here you go again with your assumptions. The buyer got what he paid for. He bought a card in a PSA holder. He received said card in said PSA holder that he reviewed photos of. How do you know there was a guarantee that it was an authentic card? You are assuming that. How often do you buy cards and in the description is says GUARANTEED AUTHENTIC? If it does I can bet you it says GUARANTEED AUTHENTIC BY _____ <<< Insert PSA OR BGS in the blank. Its BUYER BEWARE in life. You just want the rules to side your way no matter what the situation. Its very child like. You know you can't have Fairy-tale without the word Fair.

[h00perstar34]

Originally Posted by pgisback

No, it's a real serial number, but someone found the original PSA case with the serial number and it's a different label and card inside the case.

Interesting.....so someone regraded an 8 and used that case with a fake?

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by helstad

I am not understanding one thing about your argument. How do you know the card the buyer is claiming to be fake is the same card that was in the slab?

Couldn't the buyer crack the slab, take the real card and return a fake he previously owned?

You don't. That's where I, as a seller, would have to have proper documentation of the card I owned, and figure out if there was a way I can prove the buyer was pulling a scam. If I believed the buyer, then what case can I make? That he broke the seal on the case that encapsulated the counterfeit card he didn't buy? Yikes, no matter how much money was at stake I couldn't stoop that low. It doesn't really surprise me though how many people on Blowout have absolutely no problems with passing off counterfeits to buyers and not taking responsibility.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by h00perstar34

Interesting.....so someone regraded an 8 and used that case with a fake?

Yea, most likely it's the same counterfeit ring as Vegas Dave. He sold a PSA 10 Jordan for $18k to a buyer. The buyer wanted to get it reslabbed at the Nationals and PSA told him the card, the case, and the label were all counterfeit. They even sent a letter confirming the entire thing was a fake and you're out of luck.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Blake711

Here you go again with your assumptions. The buyer got what he paid for. He bought a card in a PSA holder. He received said card in said PSA holder that he reviewed photos of. How do you know there was a guarantee that it was an authentic card? You are assuming that. How often do you buy cards and in the description is says GUARANTEED AUTHENTIC? If it does I can bet you it says GUARANTEED AUTHENTIC BY _____ <<< Insert PSA OR BGS in the blank. Its BUYER BEWARE in life. You just want the rules to side your way no matter what the situation. Its very child like. You know you can't have Fairy-tale without the word Fair.

I think it's scary you guys think the buyer got what he paid for. Lmfao. At least some people argue that it doesn't matter as long as the case is broken, but to say the buyer got what he paid because it was a counterfeit mj in a psa holder is as sketchy as it gets. And I hate to break it to you, but Paypal and Ebay have these counterfeit policies in place. Try to tell Ebay that someone cut the contents out of a PSA case and see how much they care, lol. Only on Blowout does that PSA protection exist and allows you to sell counterfeit goods to people.

[helstad]

Originally Posted by pgisback

You don't. That's where I, as a seller, would have to have proper documentation of the card I owned, and figure out if there was a way I can prove the buyer was pulling a scam. If I believed the buyer, then what case can I make? That he broke the seal on the case that encapsulated the counterfeit card he didn't buy? Yikes, no matter how much money was at stake I couldn't stoop that low. It doesn't really surprise me though how many people on Blowout have absolutely no problems with passing off counterfeits to buyers and not taking responsibility.

I get that, but what documentation could be valid proof? Lets assume the buyer is a scammer, he cracked the slab and has 2 raw cards, one real, one fake. How can the seller prove the cards were switched?

In some cases it would be impossible to do this with pics, and paypal isn't going to send an expert to the buyers house to check it.,

[Blake711]

Originally Posted by pgisback

I think it's scary you guys think the buyer got what he paid for. Lmfao. At least some people argue that it doesn't matter as long as the case is broken, but to say the buyer got what he paid because it was a counterfeit mj in a psa holder is as sketchy as it gets.

It has nothing to do with Sketchy. It has everything to do with Buyer Beware. I have no issue if the buyer returned it the same way he received it. When he damaged it, which is what he did. He ruined any recourse the seller might of had any also destroyed and way for the seller to prove if it was real or fake. Also by cracking it there is no way to prove the card he sent back is what he received.

From the looks of it the slab and card were both faked. I see that and it sucks that anyone got screwed. I just don't see how you can be okay with someone destroying something and returning it. Regardless of the value.

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by pgisback

I think it's scary you guys think the buyer got what he paid for. Lmfao. At least some people argue that it doesn't matter as long as the case is broken, but to say the buyer got what he paid because it was a counterfeit mj in a psa holder is as sketchy as it gets. And I hate to break it to you, but Paypal and Ebay have these counterfeit policies in place. Try to tell Ebay that someone cut the contents out of a PSA case and see how much they care, lol. Only on Blowout does that PSA protection exist and allows you to sell counterfeit goods to people.

You are wrong. I think the buyer should never have cracked the card out of the slab and returned it for a full refund in THE EXACT CONDITION he received it in. That is what some of us are saying.

Once you get the card and inspect the slab or the card and you are unhappy or think something is wrong, automatically return it for a refund. DO NOT bust it open and proceed to ask for a refund.

Take your BGS 9.5 Mcdavid you have up for sale. What if I buy that card from you. Bust open the slab and send you back a raw copy of the card and tell you its a reprint and I want my money back?? Would you accept the broken slab and the card out and give me my full refund?

[h00perstar34]

My question is How are the cases getting resealed so smoothly? If it’s true it’s a fake unfortunately seller is up the creek without a paddle, as much as it sucks but what’s to prove the buyer didn’t switch the card out? Crappy situation here

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by helstad

I get that, but what documentation could be valid proof? Lets assume the buyer is a scammer, he cracked the slab and has 2 raw cards, one real, one fake. How can the seller prove the cards were switched?

In some cases it would be impossible to do this with pics, and paypal isn't going to send an expert to the buyers house to check it.,

There's just no difference between selling a raw card and a buyer pulling a scam like that. The PSA holder does not protect you from the contents inside. All the rules that apply with raw cards apply with PSA copies. Buyers are allowed to buy cards slabbed by PSA for the sole purpose of keeping the contents and dumping the slab. If the contents are counterfeit, you have to play by the same rules as a raw card and figure out as a seller if you can prove the buyer sent you back something that you didn't send them.

As a seller, I'm pretty confident I can safely determine whether a buyer sent me back a card that I didn't send them. The level of precision to send back an undetectable replica to the authentic card you sent them would be impressive. And if a buyer was so legit at their scam, that they can do that, I'd be screwed. But if I truly sent a buyer a counterfeit and he provided me with no reason to believe he scammed me, what case would I have against him? He broke the case on the slab of the counterfeit? Good luck with that.

[Blake711]

One final scenario. What if someone buys a card and received the wrong card. Person paid for a $1000 1/1 slabbed card and received a $100 slabbed 1/10 variant due to shipping error. Guy cracks it open to regrade and realizes this isn't what he ordered. Does he have any fault? Are you okay with him destroying it because it wasn't as advertised?

[Blake711]

Originally Posted by h00perstar34

My question is How are the cases getting resealed so smoothly? If it’s true it’s a fake unfortunately seller is up the creek without a paddle, as much as it sucks but what’s to prove the buyer didn’t switch the card out? Crappy situation here

Its believed slabs are fakes also or possibly some new unused were stolen. No one knows exactly. Multiple pages back there is a post showing the same card selling 3 times in a week on worthpoint. The whole time the OP had his in his collection.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

You are wrong. I think the buyer should never have cracked the card out of the slab and returned it for a full refund in THE EXACT CONDITION he received it in. That is what some of us are saying.

Once you get the card and inspect the slab or the card and you are unhappy or think something is wrong, automatically return it for a refund. DO NOT bust it open and proceed to ask for a refund.

Take your BGS 9.5 Mcdavid you have up for sale. What if I buy that card from you. Bust open the slab and send you back a raw copy of the card and tell you its a reprint and I want my money back?? Would you accept the broken slab and the card out and give me my full refund?

The better question is, if you bought those two McDavids from me and wanted to send them to PSA, cracked them out, and PSA returned them saying I sent you two counterfeit McDavids, you would just say "Oh well, I cracked the slabs, these worthless counterfeits are all mine now". Lmao.

But in your scenario. If I thought you were pulling a scam on me, I would gather up all the evidence and pursue it. If I thought I truly had two counterfeit mcdavids, I would turn my attention to who I bought them from. Because what possible case can I have against you if I truly sent you two counterfeit McDavids? That you took the counterfeits out of the case? That's sketchy as all hell.

[rhynodino]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

You are wrong. I think the buyer should never have cracked the card out of the slab and returned it for a full refund in THE EXACT CONDITION he received it in.

100% agree.

I understand what pgisback is saying; however, it sounds like the argument being presented is based on the authenticity of the card. Based off of that, if the buyer broke it out of the case, rounded the edges, scuffed it, cut it or whatever, and returned it, the buyer should get a refund because it was a fake. I know that's extreme, but this is basically what i'm getting from it.

[hairyangryfella]

Originally Posted by pgisback

I'm just stating a fact that you have figured out a way to sell counterfeit goods to people and not be responsible. Doesn't mean you do it, just that you've figured out a way. I personally cannot imagine how anyone can think they can sell someone a counterfeit good and not be responsible.

How have I figured out a way to sell counterfeit goods??

My post that you put that reply to said:

Originally Posted by hairyangryfella

You still don't get it.
By cracking it out before asking for a refund it is no longer in the same condition as received. It also means that the seller cannot try to return it to the person he bought it from due to it being fraudulent.

The reason I'm so upset about this situation is because it opens up all sorts of potential scams, if paypal are just going to refund a cracked out case. As if we need more in the hobby...
I do believe the buyer should receive a refund but I also believe they should have given the seller the opportunity to get their own, and shouldn't be just handed a refund by PayPal when they cracked the case.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by hairyangryfella

How have I figured out a way to sell counterfeit goods??

My post that you put that reply to said:



The reason I'm so upset about this situation is because it opens up all sorts of potential scams, if paypal are just going to refund a cracked out case. As if we need more in the hobby...
I do believe the buyer should receive a refund but I also believe they should have given the seller the opportunity to get their own, and shouldn't be just handed a refund by PayPal when they cracked the case.

Scammers sell counterfeit goods to people also, lol. That's like one of the more common scams out there. What possible justification can you come up with that you can sell someone a counterfeit card and not be responsible simply because they took the counterfeit you sold them out of a case? Good lord, if I had that belief, I would understand how sketchy it is and keep it to myself. Saying it out loud just demonstrates a complete lack of accountability. You sell fake goods, you are responsible. End of the story.

[pgisback]

The funny thing is you guys are completely protecting counterfeiters and scammers out there. Get tons of fake jordans and slabs, sell them off to buyers and I'm completely protected. If they send the slab back to me saying it's a fake, I just sell it to the next person and hope they don't figure it out, they break it out of the case, I'm all profit because they can't send the counterfeit back to me, lol. How anyone can justify that position is beyond me. But what I've learned in my years at blowout, is they will try!!

[Southpas2013]

Originally Posted by pgisback

You do not need to verify the authenticity of your item in the case it came in. If a buyer wants to take the contents out they are 100% allowed to do so and under no circumstances does that mean they are now responsible for the counterfeit they find inside. The fact you think buyers have to figure out you sold them a fake in the case and not out of the case in its raw form is ridiculous. If you sell someone a counterfeit you are responsible. There is literally no justification for selling counterfeit goods to people and not being responsible. The buyer did not receive what you claimed to be selling him.

"You do not need to verify the authenticity of your item in the case it came in" , quoting you here. Then why would you even think of breaking the PSA slab? If we are assuming the card purchased is authentic since it came in a legitimate slab? Who would put a fake slab on a real Jordan RC? So no reason to take it out of the case. Very simple.

If the card stays in the case and is sent for authentication, then it's easy to prove that in fact the seller sold a fake card.

If the card is cracked out of the case, we do not know what version of the card was sent to PSA, the one that was actually inside the case, or a swapped out version.

So you are actually siding with the scammers on this for allowing returned cards that are broken out of cases. This can be done for any card. I can buy a card from you, break it out, print out a color copy and send it to PSA. Then keep the real card and ask you for a refund of a color print out lol

Good luck to you, try not to keep banging your head against the wall with this.

[Southpas2013]

Originally Posted by pgisback

The funny thing is you guys are completely protecting counterfeiters and scammers out there. Get tons of fake jordans and slabs, sell them off to buyers and I'm completely protected. If they send the slab back to me saying it's a fake, I just sell it to the next person and hope they don't figure it out, they break it out of the case, I'm all profit because they can't send the counterfeit back to me, lol. How anyone can justify that position is beyond me. But what I've learned in my years at blowout, is they will try!!

No, if the slab is deemed fake by PSA, they are supposed to confiscate the item.

There is also a law that states counterfeit items need to be confiscated by local authorities, not returned to the seller.

Brush up on your law.

[Southpas2013]

Originally Posted by Blake711

Its believed slabs are fakes also or possibly some new unused were stolen. No one knows exactly. Multiple pages back there is a post showing the same card selling 3 times in a week on worthpoint. The whole time the OP had his in his collection.

what is worth point? good tool to look up sales?

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Southpas2013

"You do not need to verify the authenticity of your item in the case it came in" , quoting you here. Then why would you even think of breaking the PSA slab? If we are assuming the card purchased is authentic since it came in a legitimate slab? Who would put a fake slab on a real Jordan RC? So no reason to take it out of the case. Very simple.

If the card stays in the case and is sent for authentication, then it's easy to prove that in fact the seller sold a fake card.

If the card is cracked out of the case, we do not know what version of the card was sent to PSA, the one that was actually inside the case, or a swapped out version.

So you are actually siding with the scammers on this for allowing returned cards that are broken out of cases. This can be done for any card. I can buy a card from you, break it out, print out a color copy and send it to PSA. Then keep the real card and ask you for a refund of a color print out lol

Good luck to you, try not to keep banging your head against the wall with this.

Lol, buyers do not have to live by your rules. If they want to buy the card for whatever reason and take it out of the case they are allowed to do that. There is literally no policy in place that protects you from selling counterfeit goods because they are in PSA cases. If the card is a counterfeit the buyer can send it back to you for a full refund. Who's to say you aren't the counterfeiter? So scammers selling counterfeit PSA cards are completely protected now.

Keep defending selling counterfeit goods to people. Great look for you! Lmao.

[hairyangryfella]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Scammers sell counterfeit goods to people also, lol. That's like one of the more common scams out there. What possible justification can you come up with that you can sell someone a counterfeit card and not be responsible simply because they took the counterfeit you sold them out of a case? Good lord, if I had that belief, I would understand how sketchy it is and keep it to myself. Saying it out loud just demonstrates a complete lack of accountability. You sell fake goods, you are responsible. End of the story.

You didn't answer my question. Where did I come up with a way to sell counterfeit goods? You run your mouth and then avoid the question, just like the other trolls I used to have to deal with.

And if you were the victim of a scam yourself, why should you have to suffer the huge loss, if there's a chance you could have gotten your money back too? The guy didn't knowingly sell a fake card (by all accounts) but he cannot go back to the guy he bought it from because the guy he sold it to altered it, and was somehow still allowed to return it.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Southpas2013

No, if the slab is deemed fake by PSA, they are supposed to confiscate the item.

There is also a law that states counterfeit items need to be confiscated by local authorities, not returned to the seller.

Brush up on your law.

There is no law that states that counterfeit MJs need to be returned to local authorities, lol. There is ebay and paypal policy that states you do not have to send counterfeit goods back to sellers, but if the seller states the good isn't counterfeit, they have no way of determining who is right or wrong so they allow the buyer to send the item back to the seller.

Your very intense defense on selling counterfeit goods to people is noted. Lol.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by hairyangryfella

You didn't answer my question. Where did I come up with a way to sell counterfeit goods? You run your mouth and then avoid the question, just like the other trolls I used to have to deal with.

And if you were the victim of a scam yourself, why should you have to suffer the huge loss, if there's a chance you could have gotten your money back too? The guy didn't knowingly sell a fake card (by all accounts) but he cannot go back to the guy he bought it from because the guy he sold it to altered it, and was somehow still allowed to return it.

The guy he sold it to bought a 1986 Fleer MJ sold as authentic and received a counterfeit 1986 fleer mj. You as a seller are more responsible for determining whether or not the card in the PSA holder is authentic than the buyer. If the buyer does not care for PSA and just wants the contents, they are allowed to purchase your item and take the contents out. If he learns you sold him a counterfeit MJ, he can return it.

All I'm saying, is it doesn't surprise me the usual suspects who argue with me on everything, believe they can sell counterfeit goods to people and not be responsible for them. That doesn't surprise me at all.

[KhalDrogo]

You guys are wasting your time. He will never concede even an inch to you.