Westbrook in straight beast mode again... - Page 61

Orangejello727 · 03-17-2017, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filthy

They didn't just lose KD........almost the entire roster turned over for the Thunder this season. You can make the argument, that minus Westbrook, the OKC Thunder have the least talented starting 4 in the league.

In 2012/13 the Thunder had the best record in basketball, and the #1 seed in the West. Westbrook blew out his knee against Houston in 2nd game of 1st series, and KD alone couldn't get them out of the 2nd round.

The Thunder are a few games out from the 4th seed this season. We will see where the cards fall, to see ultimately where they end up. I believe that it takes them getting a 4th seed, for Westbrook to win MVP. If not, it probably goes to Harden...and I don't have a problem with that.

If you take KD off of the Warriors, they are still a playoff team.
If you take Leonard off of the Spurs, they are still a playoff team.
If you take Harden off of the Rockets, they are still a playoff team.
If you take Westbrook off the Thunder, they would probably compete for the worst record in basketball.

So, NO...I don't think you should reward the MVP, based solely on stats. And NO, I don't think you should celebrate a team, that is a 7 seed in their conference. But, the MVP is truly an individual award. And from an individual standpoint, the season that Russell Westbrook is having, hasn't been seen in the NBA in 50+ years. There would be no shame in awarding him.

The highlighted is pure speculation. You cant give credit to a player by proping him up based on what other teams WOULD NOT do if they DIDNT have X. Thats not how you prove something. Those all are What ifs. What ifs are not facts. Prove to me without Kawhi that the Spurs are a playoff team? or even Rockets without Harden. Ill give you the Warriors.

RW has great stats no doubt. But if they dont lead to anything, are they valuable? Hardens stats are just off by a tad compared to RW but he has his team in 3rd. Thats my point. If you say they are valuable because it leads to 5th place, then I have to ask is 5th place really a great achievement?

Chris P · 03-17-2017, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

The highlighted is pure speculation. You cant give credit to a player by proping him up based on what other teams WOULD NOT do if they DIDNT have X. Thats not how you prove something. Those all are What ifs. What ifs are not facts. Prove to me without Kawhi that the Spurs are a playoff team? or even Rockets without Harden. Ill give you the Warriors.

RW has great stats no doubt. But if they dont lead to anything, are they valuable? Hardens stats are just off by a tad compared to RW but he has his team in 3rd. Thats my point. If you say they are valuable because it leads to 5th place, then I have to ask is 5th place really a great achievement?

But you act like they don't LEAD to ANYTHING..there is zero middle ground with you..you act like Russ averages a triple double on a 12 win team..in other words if the Thunder don't finish in the top 3....his stats mean nothing and that's absurd...5th in the West with this roster is an achievement in my eyes

bdoody42 · 03-17-2017, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filthy

Rockets management has done a badass job of building a team around Harden. There are shooters everywhere. I would guess that they would be right there fighting for a 7 or 8 spot.

Badass job? Exactly as you said this team is built around Harden. Without him they have no one to create for others. tell me how they score without Harden? Please......

bdoody42 · 03-17-2017, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris P

As do I...I honestly believe okc MUST get that 5th sees at the very least for Russ to win it. I'm not gonna be mad at who wins it ..russ harden kawhi...all deserve it in their own ways

That would be his only chance..... and that still might not be enough.

Filthy · 03-17-2017, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

The highlighted is pure speculation. You cant give credit to a player by proping him up based on what other teams WOULD NOT do if they DIDNT have X. Thats not how you prove something. Those all are What ifs. What ifs are not facts. Prove to me without Kawhi that the Spurs are a playoff team? or even Rockets without Harden. Ill give you the Warriors.

RW has great stats no doubt. But if they dont lead to anything, are they valuable? Hardens stats are just off by a tad compared to RW but he has his team in 3rd. Thats my point. If you say they are valuable because it leads to 5th place, then I have to ask is 5th place really a great achievement?

That's where it's difficult in any comparisons anyone makes. There aren't ANY controlled variables to use. There isn't any legitimate way to know for sure, how good a team would be with or without a specific player. 5th place isn't a great achievement, but what about the alternative? At the end of the day, Russell Westbrook is doing more with less talent/support around him. So, by admitting/establishing the fact, that not all things are equal, He shouldn't be punished, nor should his accomplishments be overlooked based solely on where his team finishes in the standings.

History shows that it is a long shot for Westbrook.

Orangejello727 · 03-17-2017, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris P

But you act like they don't LEAD to ANYTHING..there is zero middle ground with you..you act like Russ averages a triple double on a 12 win team..in other words if the Thunder don't finish in the top 3....his stats mean nothing and that's absurd...5th in the West with this roster is an achievement in my eyes

There should be no middle ground in determining the best. 1st place detemines the best of the best. Thats it. Every team that comes below that is simply not the best. You can refute that all you want, that is up to you. Hence why coming in 1st is what gives you a championship ring in the post season and coming in first in either conference gives you that banner. If you feel that coming in 5th is an accomplishment with or without players on your team, you are entitled to that opinion just as I am entitled to thinking 1st place is the best place.

I want to restate my stance on RW and your notion that somehow you think I said stats mean nothing. What I am saying is stats mean something if they help you get somewhere. I dont consider getting 5th as getting somewhere. Thats what Im saying. I consider 1st the only place at the best.

cnewby · 03-17-2017, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

There should be no middle ground in determining the best. 1st place detemines the best of the best. Thats it. Every team that comes below that is simply not the best. You can refute that all you want, that is up to you. Hence why coming in 1st is what gives you a championship ring in the post season and coming in first in either conference gives you that banner. If you feel that coming in 5th is an accomplishment with or without players on your team, you are entitled to that opinion just as I am entitled to thinking 1st place is the best place.

I want to restate my stance on RW and your notion that somehow you think I said stats mean nothing. What I am saying is stats mean something if they help you get somewhere. I dont consider getting 5th as getting somewhere. Thats what Im saying. I consider 1st the only place at the best.

No you don't. You consider "top 3" the best as evidenced by your vote for James Harden as MVP.

Chris P · 03-17-2017, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

There should be no middle ground in determining the best. 1st place detemines the best of the best. Thats it. Every team that comes below that is simply not the best. You can refute that all you want, that is up to you. Hence why coming in 1st is what gives you a championship ring in the post season and coming in first in either conference gives you that banner. If you feel that coming in 5th is an accomplishment with or without players on your team, you are entitled to that opinion just as I am entitled to thinking 1st place is the best place.

I want to restate my stance on RW and your notion that somehow you think I said stats mean nothing. What I am saying is stats mean something if they help you get somewhere. I dont consider getting 5th as getting somewhere. Thats what Im saying. I consider 1st the only place at the best.

Ok then...agree to disagree

Orangejello727 · 03-17-2017, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

My cut off has always been 1. But then in various threads people seem to think 1 is too tight so we'll push it to 2/3. I know some of you want like 12/13 that way it really does become a participation award. Just goes to show how the award is nothing more than a popularity contest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnewby

No you don't. You consider "top 3" the best as evidenced by your vote for James Harden as MVP.

Dont cherry pick and leave out pertinent information. Im giving it to Harden now because the alot of people want to open greatness to more than the 1st spot. What you want me to do is open it up all the way down to last spot and include 5th as the best.

cnewby · 03-17-2017, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

Dont cherry pick and leave out pertinent information. Im giving it to Harden now because the alot of people want to open greatness to more than the 1st spot. What you want me to do is open it up all the way down to last spot and include 5th as the best.

Got it.

Seeds 1-3 = "greatness"
Seeds 4-15 = "trash"

Did I get it right?

Orangejello727 · 03-17-2017, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnewby

Got it.

Seeds 1-3 = "greatness"
Seeds 4-15 = "trash"

Did I get it right?

No No...

1st seed = The best
then the rest. You dont get a trophy for 2nd place and below

cnewby · 03-17-2017, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

No No...

1st seed = The best
then the rest. You dont get a trophy for 2nd place and below

Sooooooo, why are you saying Harden will get a trophy for finishing 3rd at best?

Orangejello727 · 03-17-2017, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnewby

Sooooooo, why are you saying Harden will get a trophy for finishing 3rd at best?

Its right above you

http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/1...-post1509.html

Ive said it 3 times. I picked harden because people are pushing for the choice to come from 1/2/3. It will keep changing as teams move up and down the ladder in rankings just like player stats will keep moving. If the rockets falls down the ladder, so does Hardens chances.

My option is only #1
A lot of peoples option is 1/2/3
A few of you in this thread are at 1 through 5 or 6 or 7 ...or where ever the thunder/RW finish.

cnewby · 03-17-2017, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

Its right above you

http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/1...-post1509.html

Ive said it 3 times. I picked harden because people are pushing for the choice to come from 1/2/3. It will keep changing as teams move up and down the ladder in rankings just like player stats will keep moving. If the rockets falls down the ladder, so does Hardens chances.

My option is only #1
A lot of peoples option is 1/2/3
A few of you in this thread are at 1 through 5 or 6 or 7 ...or where ever the thunder/RW finish.

Who are these 'people' you keep referring to?

Orangejello727 · 03-17-2017, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnewby

Who are these 'people' you keep referring to?

Either you have a bad memory or just playing the part. You dont remember this monster thread?
http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/b...our-mvp-5.html

cnewby · 03-17-2017, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

Either you have a bad memory or just playing the part. You dont remember this monster thread?
http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/b...our-mvp-5.html

Oooooh, you mean random people on blowoutcards. So "a few people" is 58 and "a lot of peoples" is 64. Got it. Now I understand.

Orangejello727 · 03-17-2017, 12:05 PM

I dont think you are contributing anything to the debate any longer but rather just looking to play in the mud. I choose not to play your game. Ill see you at the end of the season!

cnewby · 03-17-2017, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

I dont think you are contributing anything to the debate any longer but rather just looking to play in the mud. I choose not to play your game. Ill see you at the end of the season!

The Westbrook thread will be much better off, thanks.

seabass97166 · 03-17-2017, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

Do you are the very least agree that an MVP award must give merit to the player helping their team winning and placing at least top 2/3. I think 3 is a stretch but top 2 Ill take as I soften a bit on being the best.

I know these days in the cupcake generation, we award people for participation and tell them its just as imporant and great achievement as coming in 1st. But we have to recgonize the difference between 1st and ...anything below 3rd.

No. Trout won last year Angels didn't make playoffs. Harper same thing the year before.

Records come into play if players are close, but if the dude averages a triple double over the entire season...that is insane.
His team is a playoff team and he carries them. Whether OKC comes in 8th, 6th, 4th who cares.
OKC sucks without him any way you slice it.

21Pittsburgh58 · 03-17-2017, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

I dont think you are contributing anything to the debate any longer but rather just looking to play in the mud. I choose not to play your game. Ill see you at the end of the season!

Yes, this thread will be better without you.

Bye Felicia

There is an argument to be made for RW, Harden and Kawhi. Any of those 3 would be worthy. Curry and Durant? Nope. The team with TWO former MVP's has 54 wins, the team (RW's) with no MVP (yet) has 39 wins. The team with FOUR All-Stars has a better record than the team with ONE All-Star. Anyone saying that the rosters for GS, SA and HOU isn't better than OKC's, needs to re-evaluate them. Even Tim Legler (who's opinions I trust more than anyone's on here - including mine), said that the Thunder are a 20 win team without RW. Think that's true for the other teams?

bigcwd2000 · 03-17-2017, 01:13 PM

I come in peace just to say that I really don't care who wins the MVP award. However, saying that, I do believe that if Westbrook wins the MVP he deserves it. What he is doing this year is awesome and something that has only ever been done one other time in NBA history.

Chris P · 03-17-2017, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21Pittsburgh58

Yes, this thread will be better without you.

Bye Felicia

There is an argument to be made for RW, Harden and Kawhi. Any of those 3 would be worthy. Curry and Durant? Nope. The team with TWO former MVP's has 54 wins, the team (RW's) with no MVP (yet) has 39 wins. The team with FOUR All-Stars has a better record than the team with ONE All-Star. Anyone saying that the rosters for GS, SA and HOU isn't better than OKC's, needs to re-evaluate them. Even Tim Legler (who's opinions I trust more than anyone's on here - including mine), said that the Thunder are a 20 win team without RW. Think that's true for the other teams?

I just can't wrap my head around the argument that what Russ is doing isn't really value because "it's just 5th place"...it's basically saying if you don't win a championship, what you do for your team is worthless..even a team like the sixers winning more games than last season is an accomplishment

bdoody42 · 03-17-2017, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris P

I just can't wrap my head around the argument that what Russ is doing isn't really value because "it's just 5th place"...it's basically saying if you don't win a championship, what you do for your team is worthless..even a team like the sixers winning more games than last season is an accomplishment

Because its not a valid argument for people with common sense.

ninjacookies · 03-17-2017, 05:23 PM

Lol Westbrook not the MVP because not the 1 seed. There's no consolation prize for 2nd through 8th place.

But Harden the MVP, IMO despite 3rd seed.

Wait. But I'm ok in my reasoning because everyone currently has 3 mvp candidates.

huehuehuehue.

Chris P · 03-17-2017, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Lol Westbrook not the MVP because not the 1 seed. There's no consolation prize for 2nd through 8th place.

But Harden the MVP, IMO despite 3rd seed.

Wait. But I'm ok in my reasoning because everyone currently has 3 mvp candidates.

huehuehuehue.

My head hurts lol

03-17-2017, 12:05 PM	#1517
Orangejello727 Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 19,085	I dont think you are contributing anything to the debate any longer but rather just looking to play in the mud. I choose not to play your game. Ill see you at the end of the season!

03-17-2017, 01:13 PM	#1521
bigcwd2000 Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 6,474 bigcwd2000	I come in peace just to say that I really don't care who wins the MVP award. However, saying that, I do believe that if Westbrook wins the MVP he deserves it. What he is doing this year is awesome and something that has only ever been done one other time in NBA history.

03-17-2017, 05:23 PM	#1524
ninjacookies Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: All the girls see the (boi)/ Look at his flips / Look at his kards / All they say is (oh boi). Posts: 56,589	Lol Westbrook not the MVP because not the 1 seed. There's no consolation prize for 2nd through 8th place. But Harden the MVP, IMO despite 3rd seed. Wait. But I'm ok in my reasoning because everyone currently has 3 mvp candidates. huehuehuehue.