How concerned should I be about the integrity of high end vintage in OLD PSA holders?

sickmantz · 01-14-2016, 12:56 AM

I just bought this card from what appears to be a reputable seller on ebay. However, he could be a consignor.

I noticed some frosting in the lower left corner of the PSA holder (see arrows in picture). It's isolated to that one spot and I don't see any other indications of damage or tampering, but these are the holders you could easily pry open with a flat head screw driver.

I'm still learning how to judge vintage cards for grading, but there's a couple of condition flaws that surprised me. The main ones being two 1/4" long indentations on top of the card (see arrows in pictures) - like the card was clamped by something. The other being very very minor peeling on one of the back corners.

My questions:

Are the condition flaws normal for a PSA 7? The other 7s I have from this set seem a little nicer.
How concerned should I be that a PSA 7 was swapped out for a lower grade card and now the lower grade card is what's in this holder?

NickM · 01-14-2016, 02:11 AM

The background makes it really hard to judge whether the corner looks tampered. Black background gives much better contrast.
A 7 should not have those sorts of indentations. Are you close enough to PSA to go to one of their Public Fridays?
I have taken back cards I was confident were overgraded and received grading voucher compensation for the value difference (they agreed the cards were overgraded and regraded them accurately).

sickmantz · 01-14-2016, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickM

The background makes it really hard to judge whether the corner looks tampered. Black background gives much better contrast.
A 7 should not have those sorts of indentations. Are you close enough to PSA to go to one of their Public Fridays?
I have taken back cards I was confident were overgraded and received grading voucher compensation for the value difference (they agreed the cards were overgraded and regraded them accurately).

Do they hold public Friday at the same place every time? I live in SoCal, but otherwise, I don't know how close I'd be.

I'll post scans with black background tonight.

smackvay · 01-14-2016, 02:01 PM

nice example if I could see it in person I could give advice
in my opinion it doesn't appear to be a 7

lindeman79 · 01-14-2016, 07:29 PM

highly... I stay far away from the ones with the rounded white part of the label. It has to be square.

xplainer · 01-14-2016, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindeman79

highly... I stay far away from the ones with the rounded white part of the label. It has to be square.

I was going to call BS on L Man, so I pulled some cards I submitted myself. Well, it appears he is right. All my PSA cards have square corners, where the white is, not rounded. That's both old and new holders.

lindeman79 · 01-14-2016, 09:08 PM

So you're sayin I'm right?
L Man, I like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xplainer

I was going to call BS on L Man, so I pulled some cards I submitted myself. Well, it appears he is right. All my PSA cards have square corners, where the white is, not rounded. That's both old and new holders.

camden_yardage · 01-14-2016, 09:57 PM

This thread will walk you through a history of the old flips.

Changes in PSA and SGC Labels Over the Years - Net54baseball.com Forums

sickmantz · 01-14-2016, 10:52 PM

Here's the card with a black background

NickM · 01-15-2016, 03:19 AM

Public Fridays are always at the same place (PSA's offices in Santa Ana).

Looking at it on a black background, it looks like the case got banged up at that corner (may have been dropped), but it does not appear to have been tampered with.

Daddymc · 01-15-2016, 08:28 AM

Thoughts:

1) Case not tampered with. As stated above, dropped on corner or perhaps pressure got applied to that corner.
2) Card is overgraded as a 7 with the edge damage.
3) Round corner flips are fine. Just understand that they are from a different period and standards may have been different. This can in fact sometimes be an opportunity as PSA did not use half grades then.

sickmantz · 01-15-2016, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickM

Public Fridays are always at the same place (PSA's offices in Santa Ana).

Looking at it on a black background, it looks like the case got banged up at that corner (may have been dropped), but it does not appear to have been tampered with.

Are public Fridays a weekly thing? I'm having trouble finding info.

xplainer · 01-15-2016, 09:44 AM

Thanks for that post Camden. Explains it perfectly.
Oh, and L Man, you were wrong.

Doctor Claw · 01-15-2016, 04:51 PM

As some have said, but worth reiterating...

Flips/labels have undergone periodic redesigns over the years. No need to fret over a past era's label. There is information online, not that I have links to offhand, however, that discusses and shows the various generations of flips.

It is a very smooth process to send any card in for review and/or reholdering, for peace of mind, should that be desired. I have done it in the past.

If a card is deemed overgraded, or they see they missed a flaw that would lower the grade, they do make good on the situation-- they will regrade the card in its proper new grade and holder, free of charge, and also reimburse you for the difference between what you paid and the SMR value of the card in its new holder/grade. This has happened to me with a Rose RC and a Jordan RC. In both instances it was a great result, to have the same card I was happy with a second ago, albeit in a lowered holder, but with cash back to spend.

With respect to frosting-- staccato patches of frosting along edges are not a sign of tampering. In fact you can receive cards from PSA, literally warm off the press, handed to you in their waiting area by a PSA rep, and the edges of the holders will exhibit some frosting here and there. It is when one entire edge is frosted and when the circular "pins" are popped that one should be concerned. Additionally, minor stress cracks in the pin area are also common to good holders. The new holders are better in this regard.

Hope all this helps.

sickmantz · 01-15-2016, 05:35 PM

Thanks for all the input. It was very informative.

I decided since I just bought the card that it would be less of a hassle if I just returned it (since the seller offers returns - I paid shipping). I'm building a set, so it's extremely disappointing to have to return the card.

It's good to know, though, that I can submit overgraded cards to PSA for remedy.

Does this question from PSA's FAQ fit the process to follow if you think a card is overgraded?

Q: How can I get a second opinion on a PSA graded card?
A: PSA can review any card(s) that you feel warrants a different grade. To utilize our review service, please fill out a submission form and mark the submission type as “Review” and then select the appropriate service level.

MFaulkCollector · 01-15-2016, 09:00 PM

I have a lot of cards graded by PSA..... and I think I may be in the minority here. I think a 7 grade could be perfectly accurate for this item. If the surface is clean, corners are pretty sharp..... the card is probably a 7. If you look closely at the PSA grading guidelines, it speaks a lot to "overall eye appeal".... If those two indentations on the back are the only less than mint area on the card; and they feel the eye appeal is there for an overall 7.... then that's what it is. It's hard to see those spots on the front and that also probably had an effect on the positive nature of the grade. If that is on the front clearly I know they would have went lower, but being on the back mostly and the really solid overall eye appeal to the front and rest of the back.... it could be legit.

Also keep in mind the size of those two spots... they look big on a jumbo scan but they are very small in relation to the size of the card

sickmantz · 01-15-2016, 10:20 PM

The indentations are on both sides. It looks like the card was clamped and someone pulled the clamps.

Oh well, no matter. It's already in the mail.

lindeman79 · 01-16-2016, 07:21 AM

Well I like to stay away from those labels because I think they are ugly anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xplainer

Thanks for that post Camden. Explains it perfectly.
Oh, and L Man, you were wrong.

aliceinpains · 01-17-2016, 01:43 PM

Most PSA cases have frosting. I have tons of the new PSA cases and many of those have frosting as well. SGC slabs are the same way.

As for the card, I think it looks fine. A 7 looks about right.

kyle1707 · 01-17-2016, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliceinpains

Most PSA cases have frosting. I have tons of the new PSA cases and many of those have frosting as well. SGC slabs are the same way.

As for the card, I think it looks fine. A 7 looks about right.

Yes there is a massive over reaction to frosting...

Take a cheap SGC or PSA graded card and try to break it open with out ruining it...

It has happened before.. but IMO the damage is so visible the odds of someone opening one and reselling it are very very slim with out noticing it...

Frosting in certain areas is common... if a slab is opened the whole side would be frosted... so if you see frosting in just spots.. that is actually a good sign... because a opened case would be frosted all the way up and down...

As far as your card... I made the 1956 topps set with 150 psa 7...

I did have cards with the same kind of small dents on the borders...

Most did not... but some did.. When they are on the card of the set.. Mantle...

It is easy to magnify that it is messed with

01-14-2016, 12:56 AM	#1
sickmantz Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: CA Posts: 2,477 vashthe84	How concerned should I be about the integrity of high end vintage in OLD PSA holders? I just bought this card from what appears to be a reputable seller on ebay. However, he could be a consignor. I noticed some frosting in the lower left corner of the PSA holder (see arrows in picture). It's isolated to that one spot and I don't see any other indications of damage or tampering, but these are the holders you could easily pry open with a flat head screw driver. I'm still learning how to judge vintage cards for grading, but there's a couple of condition flaws that surprised me. The main ones being two 1/4" long indentations on top of the card (see arrows in pictures) - like the card was clamped by something. The other being very very minor peeling on one of the back corners. My questions: Are the condition flaws normal for a PSA 7? The other 7s I have from this set seem a little nicer. How concerned should I be that a PSA 7 was swapped out for a lower grade card and now the lower grade card is what's in this holder?

01-14-2016, 02:11 AM	#2
NickM Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 12,353	The background makes it really hard to judge whether the corner looks tampered. Black background gives much better contrast. A 7 should not have those sorts of indentations. Are you close enough to PSA to go to one of their Public Fridays? I have taken back cards I was confident were overgraded and received grading voucher compensation for the value difference (they agreed the cards were overgraded and regraded them accurately). __________________ 1st superfractor hit by RK Collectibles. 2014 Bowman Chrome Mini BB Chris Kohler. "What do we want?" "Time travel." "And when do we want it?" "It's irrelevant."

01-14-2016, 02:01 PM	#4
smackvay Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: west virginia Posts: 11,947	nice example if I could see it in person I could give advice in my opinion it doesn't appear to be a 7 __________________ SUPERCOLLECTOR LOOKING FOR PAT WHITE CARDS NEED SILVER? HAVE SILVER? PM ME EITHER WAY

01-14-2016, 07:29 PM	#5
lindeman79 Banned Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: I wish I was back in Michigan Posts: 4,885 wretch24	highly... I stay far away from the ones with the rounded white part of the label. It has to be square. Last edited by lindeman79; 01-14-2016 at 07:33 PM.

01-14-2016, 09:57 PM	#8
camden_yardage Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 307 Smithvintagecards smithdfs	It's an old label This thread will walk you through a history of the old flips. Changes in PSA and SGC Labels Over the Years - Net54baseball.com Forums

01-14-2016, 10:52 PM	#9
sickmantz Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: CA Posts: 2,477 vashthe84	Here's the card with a black background

01-15-2016, 03:19 AM	#10
NickM Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 12,353	Public Fridays are always at the same place (PSA's offices in Santa Ana). Looking at it on a black background, it looks like the case got banged up at that corner (may have been dropped), but it does not appear to have been tampered with. __________________ 1st superfractor hit by RK Collectibles. 2014 Bowman Chrome Mini BB Chris Kohler. "What do we want?" "Time travel." "And when do we want it?" "It's irrelevant."

01-15-2016, 08:28 AM	#11
Daddymc Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Delaware Posts: 2,795 Daddymc Daddymc	Thoughts: 1) Case not tampered with. As stated above, dropped on corner or perhaps pressure got applied to that corner. 2) Card is overgraded as a 7 with the edge damage. 3) Round corner flips are fine. Just understand that they are from a different period and standards may have been different. This can in fact sometimes be an opportunity as PSA did not use half grades then.

01-15-2016, 09:44 AM	#13
xplainer Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: South Georgia Posts: 2,436	Thanks for that post Camden. Explains it perfectly. Oh, and L Man, you were wrong.

01-15-2016, 04:51 PM	#14
Doctor Claw Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 1,017	As some have said, but worth reiterating... Flips/labels have undergone periodic redesigns over the years. No need to fret over a past era's label. There is information online, not that I have links to offhand, however, that discusses and shows the various generations of flips. It is a very smooth process to send any card in for review and/or reholdering, for peace of mind, should that be desired. I have done it in the past. If a card is deemed overgraded, or they see they missed a flaw that would lower the grade, they do make good on the situation-- they will regrade the card in its proper new grade and holder, free of charge, and also reimburse you for the difference between what you paid and the SMR value of the card in its new holder/grade. This has happened to me with a Rose RC and a Jordan RC. In both instances it was a great result, to have the same card I was happy with a second ago, albeit in a lowered holder, but with cash back to spend. With respect to frosting-- staccato patches of frosting along edges are not a sign of tampering. In fact you can receive cards from PSA, literally warm off the press, handed to you in their waiting area by a PSA rep, and the edges of the holders will exhibit some frosting here and there. It is when one entire edge is frosted and when the circular "pins" are popped that one should be concerned. Additionally, minor stress cracks in the pin area are also common to good holders. The new holders are better in this regard. Hope all this helps.

01-15-2016, 05:35 PM	#15
sickmantz Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: CA Posts: 2,477 vashthe84	Thanks for all the input. It was very informative. I decided since I just bought the card that it would be less of a hassle if I just returned it (since the seller offers returns - I paid shipping). I'm building a set, so it's extremely disappointing to have to return the card. It's good to know, though, that I can submit overgraded cards to PSA for remedy. Does this question from PSA's FAQ fit the process to follow if you think a card is overgraded? Q: How can I get a second opinion on a PSA graded card? A: PSA can review any card(s) that you feel warrants a different grade. To utilize our review service, please fill out a submission form and mark the submission type as “Review” and then select the appropriate service level.

01-15-2016, 09:00 PM	#16
MFaulkCollector Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 6,003	I have a lot of cards graded by PSA..... and I think I may be in the minority here. I think a 7 grade could be perfectly accurate for this item. If the surface is clean, corners are pretty sharp..... the card is probably a 7. If you look closely at the PSA grading guidelines, it speaks a lot to "overall eye appeal".... If those two indentations on the back are the only less than mint area on the card; and they feel the eye appeal is there for an overall 7.... then that's what it is. It's hard to see those spots on the front and that also probably had an effect on the positive nature of the grade. If that is on the front clearly I know they would have went lower, but being on the back mostly and the really solid overall eye appeal to the front and rest of the back.... it could be legit. Also keep in mind the size of those two spots... they look big on a jumbo scan but they are very small in relation to the size of the card

01-15-2016, 10:20 PM	#17
sickmantz Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: CA Posts: 2,477 vashthe84	The indentations are on both sides. It looks like the card was clamped and someone pulled the clamps. Oh well, no matter. It's already in the mail.

01-17-2016, 01:43 PM	#19
aliceinpains Banned Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 1,490	Most PSA cases have frosting. I have tons of the new PSA cases and many of those have frosting as well. SGC slabs are the same way. As for the card, I think it looks fine. A 7 looks about right. Last edited by aliceinpains; 01-17-2016 at 01:46 PM.