BGS return and confused - Need help

[FGLBinger]

Recently sent off 4 cards to BGS and 2 were graded what I had them (9 & 9.5)
The other 2 got HAMMERED on the Centering. One is off centered a little bit but got an 8 and this one I just cannot get behind their reasoning. I have examined the same card with 9.5 Centering grade and the centering is identical to mine which got an 8. Am I Just out of luck if I don't agree? The messed up part is that centering is the one aspect that is not subjective lol. How does this get an 8? Might crack it and send to PSA but with grading prices so high, this sucks

[APOHBatAutos]

Originally Posted by FGLBinger

Recently sent off 4 cards to BGS and 2 were graded what I had them (9 & 9.5)
The other 2 got HAMMERED on the Centering. One is off centered a little bit but got an 8 and this one I just cannot get behind their reasoning. I have examined the same card with 9.5 Centering grade and the centering is identical to mine which got an 8. Am I Just out of luck if I don't agree? The messed up part is that centering is the one aspect that is not subjective lol. How does this get an 8? Might crack it and send to PSA but with grading prices so high, this sucks

It's a hard lesson to learn, but the quicker you learn that BGS grading is worthless the better.

As evidenced by Eagle-Eye Joe, and the complete inconsistency of their grades, there is no difference between a card that is a 9 and a black label. In your case, there is no difference between an 8 and a 9.5.

Your card has the exact same centering as the copy currently listed on eBay that is graded a 9.5 with 9.5 centering.

Human error and opinion is one thing, but when there is no standard for a particular sub grade, and that sub grade will result in the difference between a card getting an 8 versus a 9.5, and furthermore there being no difference between a 9.5 and a 10, it's hard to value their grade at all. Plus, their opinion is not worth paying for.

Not sure you have recourse, but there is a chance if you showed them the 9.5 on eBay and had one of the guys on here who are good at lining up the markings on the card prove that its the same centering (or close to it), you may be able to get your card bumped. But then that begs another question, if that can be done, do you really want to keep supporting a company that is this deficient all to make a few bucks?

[FGLBinger]

Originally Posted by APOHBatAutos

It's a hard lesson to learn, but the quicker you learn that BGS grading is worthless the better.

As evidenced by Eagle-Eye Joe, and the complete inconsistency of their grades, there is no difference between a card that is a 9 and a black label. In your case, there is no difference between an 8 and a 9.5.

Your card has the exact same centering as the copy currently listed on eBay that is graded a 9.5 with 9.5 centering.

Human error and opinion is one thing, but when there is no standard for a particular sub grade, and that sub grade will result in the difference between a card getting an 8 versus a 9.5, and furthermore there being no difference between a 9.5 and a 10, it's hard to value their grade at all. Plus, their opinion is not worth paying for.

Not sure you have recourse, but there is a chance if you showed them the 9.5 on eBay and had one of the guys on here who are good at lining up the markings on the card prove that its the same centering (or close to it), you may be able to get your card bumped. But then that begs another question, if that can be done, do you really want to keep supporting a company that is this deficient all to make a few bucks?

I get what you’re saying and I do agree. I think it’s the same for all the companies though. I have PSA 9s of the same card in a 10 that look better than the 10. It’s just rolling dice sometimes with all of them it seems. But yeah, this definitely made me lose respect for BGS to take such a low grade on Centering when they have multiples graded 9.5 that are the same as mine. I would take the bump though if they offered it lol. If I can’t I’ll crack and send to PSA and hopefully get a 10. The card seems flawless to me. But what do I know?

[mc1]

Originally Posted by APOHBatAutos

It's a hard lesson to learn, but the quicker you learn that BGS grading is worthless the better.

All human graders make mistakes, so all grading is worthless. People are only paying for labels and slabs.

To OP, crack and sub to PSA.

[saintsfan9]

if you dont want to pay for PSA, and the card is flawless, it would look nice in a SGC slab with a 10. SGC is $30 (40 for faster service) and takes under 3 weeks round trip.

I just got my package today that I sent out mid feb.

[FGLBinger]

Originally Posted by saintsfan9

if you dont want to pay for PSA, and the card is flawless, it would look nice in a SGC slab with a 10. SGC is $30 (40 for faster service) and takes under 3 weeks round trip.

I just got my package today that I sent out mid feb.

I think it’s flawless lol. I’ve used SGC and like them a lot. I tend to hit almost all 9.5s though which aren’t great for resell/trading values. I just want to know if it is legit 8 centering! Baffled by this one.

[Stackfan]

Just a guess here; but maybe they are considering the top/bottom centering a bit off? There's quite a bit of space above the "C" in top left; and a lot less below Mitchell on the bottom. Personally i don't think cards like this have "centering" per say; so i'd kind of default it.

[patientgambler]

It's clear the grader just screwed up. As said above, the grader must've judged the t/b centering from the C logo at the top to the nameplate at the bottom. Then judged the l/r by the centering of the nameplate its self (which is skewed to the left, but all copies look like this). This isn't the way the centering is supposed to be judged on this card, or at least that's not how BGS had judged it from other copies they've graded. It doesn't look like PSA judges it that way either.

[FGLBinger]

Originally Posted by Stackfan

Just a guess here; but maybe they are considering the top/bottom centering a bit off? There's quite a bit of space above the "C" in top left; and a lot less below Mitchell on the bottom. Personally i don't think cards like this have "centering" per say; so i'd kind of default it.

That’s probably what happened. I have the lowest graded copy that there is and it’s from the “centering” but all copies look just like this from what I’ve seen.

[FGLBinger]

Originally Posted by patientgambler

It's clear the grader just screwed up. As said above, the grader must've judged the t/b centering from the C logo at the top to the nameplate at the bottom. Then judged the l/r by the centering of the nameplate its self (which is skewed to the left, but all copies look like this). This isn't the way the centering is supposed to be judged on this card, or at least that's not how BGS had judged it from other copies they've graded. It doesn't look like PSA judges it that way either.

Sucks I just have to eat the grading fee..not to mention get it regraded if I choose because their grader doesn’t understand the card. I sent an email with my copy and other copies “BGS 9.5 centering” that all look identical and haven’t gotten a response. Probably won’t lol.

[FGLBinger]

8 months later...just as I expected lol

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by FGLBinger

I get what you’re saying and I do agree. I think it’s the same for all the companies though. I have PSA 9s of the same card in a 10 that look better than the 10. It’s just rolling dice sometimes with all of them it seems. But yeah, this definitely made me lose respect for BGS to take such a low grade on Centering when they have multiples graded 9.5 that are the same as mine. I would take the bump though if they offered it lol. If I can’t I’ll crack and send to PSA and hopefully get a 10. The card seems flawless to me. But what do I know?

TAG grading provides you with a report that gives the exact centering values for the front and back.

Check out a grading report for a Wander Franco 9
https://my.taggrading.com/card/H4446717

[edogg]

Looks like the top-bottom centering is off on the back and left-right is a little off too. An 8 seems a bit excessive, but I would give that a 8 on the back and 10 front so an overall centering grade of 9.

As to PSA giving it a 10, thats a bit ridiculous since you can plainly see that the centering on the back is flawed. The 10 may make you feel good, and everyone wants 10s for all their cards, but to me it simply says that PSA grading is mediocre at best. In my non-existent grading company, the only cards that would garner an overall grade of 10 would be drop-dead pristine. This card would get a 9 or maybe 9.5 but not 10. No way. It's one of the reasons I really don't like PSA.

[Chy]

Originally Posted by edogg

Looks like the top-bottom centering is off on the back and left-right is a little off too. An 8 seems a bit excessive, but I would give that a 8 on the back and 10 front so an overall centering grade of 9.

As to PSA giving it a 10, thats a bit ridiculous since you can plainly see that the centering on the back is flawed. The 10 may make you feel good, and everyone wants 10s for all their cards, but to me it simply says that PSA grading is mediocre at best. In my non-existent grading company, the only cards that would garner an overall grade of 10 would be drop-dead pristine. This card would get a 9 or maybe 9.5 but not 10. No way. It's one of the reasons I really don't like PSA.

The reason why people like PSA, and the reason why they have dominated, is precisely because it is possible to get PSA 10s. Very few people want a collection BGS 9.5s. A 10 looks cleaner, and your collections feels more complete. It's much more fun to try for the "perfect" grade of a 10 and have a legit shot at it rather than BGS's stupid grading scale of grading every gem mint card a 9.5.

[f2tornado]

Originally Posted by FGLBinger

This card appears to be roughly 60/40 at best top to bottom if the logo on top left is any guide. The BGS flip fits their grading standard: Near Mint/Mint 8 - Centering: 60/40 both ways or better on front. 80/20 or better on back. Kuddos finding a more liberal grader at PSA.

[edogg]

Originally Posted by Chy

The reason why people like PSA, and the reason why they have dominated, is precisely because it is possible to get PSA 10s. Very few people want a collection BGS 9.5s. A 10 looks cleaner, and your collections feels more complete. It's much more fun to try for the "perfect" grade of a 10 and have a legit shot at it rather than BGS's stupid grading scale of grading every gem mint card a 9.5.

And that is exactly why I DON'T like PSA. Very simply, you shouldn't be able to get a perfect score on a card with flaws. That, to me, defeats the purpose of grading a card based on its condition. I would much prefer a near-perfect card with a minor flaw in a slab with a 9.5 grade than to have a card with a visible flaw in a slab with a 10 grade. And if I want to buy a card for my PC that has ZERO flaws, I want to be able to buy a 10 knowing that it is flawless. You can't do that with PSA because, to your point, people just want the 10 even if it has flaws, and PSA is more than willing to go along. Totally ridiculous.

[Stackfan]

Originally Posted by edogg

And that is exactly why I DON'T like PSA. Very simply, you shouldn't be able to get a perfect score on a card with flaws. That, to me, defeats the purpose of grading a card based on its condition. I would much prefer a near-perfect card with a minor flaw in a slab with a 9.5 grade than to have a card with a visible flaw in a slab with a 10 grade. And if I want to buy a card for my PC that has ZERO flaws, I want to be able to buy a 10 knowing that it is flawless. You can't do that with PSA because, to your point, people just want the 10 even if it has flaws, and PSA is more than willing to go along. Totally ridiculous.

I'll second this. the PSA 10 is fool's gold.

As for the downtown, the "C" in the front top left is clearly off center top side, compared to the left side. I didn't measure it, but the name at the bottom looks OC as well. I probably would have went with a 8.5 on centering with an overall grade of 9. Luckily PSA is very lenient on centering.

I will say if there are other BGS copies seem to be graded 9's and 9.5's for centering. Don't think those are either either.

I wonder at what point, does the hobby care less about the grade, and more about the card. 8.5 / 9.5 / 10... it's all the same card!

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by Stackfan

I'll second this. the PSA 10 is fool's gold.

As for the downtown, the "C" in the front top left is clearly off center top side, compared to the left side. I didn't measure it, but the name at the bottom looks OC as well. I probably would have went with a 8.5 on centering with an overall grade of 9. Luckily PSA is very lenient on centering.

I will say if there are other BGS copies seem to be graded 9's and 9.5's for centering. Don't think those are either either.

I wonder at what point, does the hobby care less about the grade, and more about the card. 8.5 / 9.5 / 10... it's all the same card!

If people actually collected rare things in the modern era like optic and prizm base golds…. The grade wouldn’t matter much because the cards are so rare they basically won’t exist in the wild a year or two after release.

Instead people think grading cards that can be found easily and differentiating them by grade is some fantastic idea. News flash…. It’s not. Fortunately for people with general sense there are a lot of really rare and desirable inserts/parallels in this era that will stand the test of time without having to be graded at all

[jplarson]

Interesting topic regarding the centering. Visually I'd think the Cornerstones logo would equally tucked in the corner from the top and side. The name/team plate also would be center justified with the space below the plate to edge being equal to the space between logo and top of the card.

Looking at Panini's samples released directly from their graphic arts program, one would think the centering would be perfect.



The logo on the Shaq is equal at 18 pixels away from the top and left edges, evenly spaced away from the corner.

The centering on the name/team plate is fairly off, 58 pixels on the left and 50 pixels on the right. From plate to bottom it's 16 pixels, not too bad from the 18 pixels from the top logo. Two nudges and it's equally aligned. My guess is that on the Shaq they didn't align the name/team plate before exporting a jpeg for the press release.

This card is 54/46 Left/Right and 53/46 Top/Bottom.



The logo on the Lonzo card is 15 pixels from the top but only 10 pixels from the right. From plate to bottom it's 11 pixels which is noticeably off. The name/team plate is 42 pixels from the left and 41 pixels from the right so fairly dead on. Again hopefully the design wasn't final and sent to press like that.

This card is 51/49 Left/Right and 58/42 Top/Bottom.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

If people actually collected rare things in the modern era like optic and prizm base golds…. The grade wouldn’t matter much because the cards are so rare they basically won’t exist in the wild a year or two after release.

Instead people think grading cards that can be found easily and differentiating them by grade is some fantastic idea. News flash…. It’s not. Fortunately for people with general sense there are a lot of really rare and desirable inserts/parallels in this era that will stand the test of time without having to be graded at all

People don't collect rare things in the modern era?

[Svabinsky78]

PSA is so all over the place these days....just look at some of the threads....cards coming back so grossly undergraded...or worse....are not graded at all because the PSA grader seems to think that the card was altered. Personally, I do think that Beckett is more consistent and fair overall than PSA. I personally like SGC the best, the most consistent and fair. I also like CSG....they are newer but, from my experience (and those of my friends who have submitted through CSG), the grades have been in the ballpark from what I guessed. If you want to resubmit, I'd go with SGC or CSG. PSA has become pretty unpredictable. My friend submitted about 50 cards not that long ago (had them also looked over by a shop that does a lot of submissions) and about 1/3 came back on average 2 grades lower (7s) than what he expected. Couldn't for the life of him figure out how the heck they came up with those grades....when he reached out to PSA.... crickets.

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

People don't collect rare things in the modern era?

Not your collective group of people on this forum who constantly complain about grading/margins/how 15 is too much per card/inconsistencies/market stability for base rcs/blah blah

The same clowns who wonder why their psa 10 base Rodgers Brees Manning topps rcs have slashed 75 percent…… are the same people who will be buying base rcs of Allen burrow hurts etc and trying for psa 10s of cards with pops in the thousands.

Most people never learn; it’s just the way it is. Graded common cards as “commodities” are not a real sustainable thing like stocks… no matter how much the pumpers want us to believe it.

Real market stability in the card space is where rarity meets popularity. As the market dies now look at the common and semi star market on rubies, metal gems, credentials, 24k brilliants, finest gold refractors, jambalaya and 2000 men, the list goes on and on. “Collectors” with expendable income usually want and like nice things that aren’t readily available or easy to pry from others. The modern era has a lot of this type of stuff, yet it’s often overlooked. Years down the road people will wonder why they missed it. The writing is on the wall now, it was there 3 years ago, and will be 3 years from now.

The overarching theme is; people do NOT learn from history or their own mistakes

[mwheeler27]

Originally Posted by Stackfan

I'll second this. the PSA 10 is fool's gold.

Perfect analogy.

I remember when I was a kid and being excited to own a piece of pyrite. I mean, I was really excited. Now that I’m older, I couldn’t care less.

(AU > FeS2) = (BGS10 > PSA10)

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by mwheeler27

Perfect analogy.

I remember when I was a kid and being excited to own a piece of pyrite. I mean, I was really excited. Now that I’m older, I couldn’t care less.

(AU > FeS2) = (BGS10 > PSA10)

automated grading >>>>>>> BGS 10, PSA 10

The BGS 10 black label is the mother of fool's gold

[FGLBinger]

I think the main point of this was that I looked at all the other 9.5s I could find on this card at the time, and they all had the same centering as mine with a 9.5 subgrade on centering, whereas mine received an 8. PSA or BGS, there is no consistency. In this case, PSA got it right (according to their grading scale) and BGS did not. I actually preferred BGS for most of my cards until this experience. They did not respond to my email with multiple examples of their inaccurate grade on my card. Centering is the only subgrade that isn't subjective so how could they dispute it? I honestly would rather have a, "We don't care" response rather than be ignored. I don't grade that many cards, but call me crazy, when I do I expect them to be accurately graded. End of rant.