Should MiLB stats count towards potential HoF's

66_Fiat · 09-13-2021, 09:16 PM

Veteran Committees have been rightfully voting in Negro League players that had the skill, but lacked opportunity. This is an apples to oranges comparison due to obvious circumstances.

I'm only drawing the comparison that MiLB players are playing against the best talent among them at the time within a professional baseball league. It's not their fault the owners want to save $3-$20M and a year (or three) despite their talent.

If the MiLB players are also well above their peers, shouldn't that count towards their greatness? Just recently, we can look to Goldschmidt and Bryant. They were ready for Opening Day the spring after they graduated college.

Hell, Goldschmidt had 2 full MLB seasons of ABs (3 years in the minors) and averaged 42HR/132RBI, and a .317/.408/.620 slash line.

Bryant also dominated in his 2+ seasons. 648 ABs in the minors. 212H, 55HR, 152RBI, 18SB, and a better OPS than Goldy (.425/.667)

I'm not saying the stats should count overall (i.e., Ichiro vs Rose for lifetime professional hits), but if the CBA drastically shifts towards younger players getting the call due to a change in arbitration dates/salary constrictions, then maybe those players that got the late call ups should have their early MiLB seasons assessed as well.

I'm not even considering collegiate stats.

MoreToppsPlease · 09-13-2021, 09:17 PM

No, but post-season stats should count.

Crime Dog would be happy.

66_Fiat · 09-13-2021, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

No, but post-season stats should count.

Crime Dog would be happy.

Jack Morris says hi.

I do agree with Crime Dog getting in though.

Archangel1775 · 09-13-2021, 09:32 PM

If they do, you'll have people going asking about little league stats in the future

rwperu34 · 09-13-2021, 09:32 PM

I wanted to just say no but the site requires the reply to be at least five characters, so I'll say no way.

base set · 09-13-2021, 09:35 PM

Baseball Card Hall of Fame only

jduds · 09-13-2021, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 66_Fiat

Veteran Committees have been rightfully voting in Negro League players that had the skill, but lacked opportunity. This is an apples to oranges comparison due to obvious circumstances.

I'm only drawing the comparison that MiLB players are playing against the best talent among them at the time within a professional baseball league. It's not their fault the owners want to save $3-$20M and a year (or three) despite their talent.

If the MiLB players are also well above their peers, shouldn't that count towards their greatness? Just recently, we can look to Goldschmidt and Bryant. They were ready for Opening Day the spring after they graduated college.

Hell, Goldschmidt had 2 full MLB seasons of ABs (3 years in the minors) and averaged 42HR/132RBI, and a .317/.408/.620 slash line.

Bryant also dominated in his 2+ seasons. 648 ABs in the minors. 212H, 55HR, 152RBI, 18SB, and a better OPS than Goldy (.425/.667)

I'm not saying the stats should count overall (i.e., Ichiro vs Rose for lifetime professional hits), but if the CBA drastically shifts towards younger players getting the call due to a change in arbitration dates/salary constrictions, then maybe those players that got the late call ups should have their early MiLB seasons assessed as well.

I'm not even considering collegiate stats.

My initial thought was absolutely not, but you are on to something with players who were kept in the minors too long through no fault of their own. I wouldn't add the stats or anything, but think it is something to consider when evaluating a career as a whole. Maybe on a borderline case it could push one over the top.

Archangel1775 · 09-13-2021, 09:49 PM

Joey Gallo just needs 193 home runs to join the 500 Club and he's only 27. He should reach that mark by the time he's 33. Future Hall of Famer! Invest now!

Silent George · 09-13-2021, 09:52 PM

The stats shouldn’t count, but the circumstances of an individual player’s career should. If Bryant ends up short of a few milestones and is seen as a fringe player it should be reminded to all of the voters that he was screwed by the baseball rules at the time BECAUSE he was so good.

jduds · 09-13-2021, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Joey Gallo just needs 193 home runs to join the 500 Club and he's only 27. He should reach that mark by the time he's 33. Future Hall of Famer! Invest now!

You jest, but will they really keep out a 500 HR guy outside of PED reasons?

MoreToppsPlease · 09-13-2021, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

If they do, you'll have people going asking about little league stats in the future

Don’t prospectors already do this?

All prospectors say “yes” to the OP’s query. Interestingly they just don’t care about real MLB stats or unis

rwperu34 · 09-13-2021, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Joey Gallo just needs 193 home runs to join the 500 Club and he's only 27. He should reach that mark by the time he's 33. Future Hall of Famer! Invest now!

I, for one, will take it!

pspa123 · 09-13-2021, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwperu34

I wanted to just say no but the site requires the reply to be at least five characters, so I'll say no way.

How about Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

PejaD · 09-13-2021, 11:56 PM

No unless you consider Mike Hessman a HoF

mattsey9 · 09-14-2021, 01:10 AM

It would do wonders for Lefty O'Doul, who should already be in for the depth and breadth of his contributions to the game.

cardsin47 · 09-14-2021, 01:17 AM

No - just like your High School Grades help get you in to College, but don’t count towards your Degree once you get there…..

66_Fiat · 09-14-2021, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardsin47

No - just like your High School Grades help get you in to College, but don’t count towards your Degree once you get there…..

I like a good counterpoint, and agree with this face value

eye4talent · 09-14-2021, 01:48 AM

Minor league performance? No.

But you touch on a potentially interesting point, in that economics of the game could theoretically affect a player’s career totals, if he were held down so that ownership could control him for longer and/or save money.

However, that really isn’t likely to impact a player’s HOF resume, because a player will likely only be held down for a couple weeks or a couple months.

Goldschmidt was an 8th round pick out of Texas State, so he wasn’t exactly expected to be on the fast track to the show. Still, he debuted just a little over two years after being drafted, skipping Triple-A in the process.

There’s an argument that Kris Bryant not only started 2015 in Triple-A because of service-time manipulation, but he probably could’ve handled MLB pitching in 2014. That said, he likely could be on the HOF path, regardless, if his production hadn’t dipped in the past few seasons.

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66_Fiat · 09-14-2021, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

If they do, you'll have people going asking about little league stats in the future

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Don’t prospectors already do this?

All prospectors say “yes” to the OP’s query. Interestingly they just don’t care about real MLB stats or unis

I only asked about their professional stat lines, and even stated at the end that collegiate stats don't matter.

Are you two so diluted that you only think about kids and the monetary value they can bring you?

Jesus...

Archangel1775 · 09-14-2021, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jduds

You jest, but will they really keep out a 500 HR guy outside of PED reasons?

I included his Milb stats as the OP suggested. He's actually sitting on 152 MLB home runs. I recalled an active player that mashed in the minors. Gallo was him...he hit 155 Pre-MLB.

But yes, 500 MLB home runs is one hell of an accomplishment and deserves enshrinement(outliers aside).

cloakroom · 09-14-2021, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eye4talent

Minor league performance? No.

But you touch on a potentially interesting point, in that economics of the game could theoretically affect a player’s career totals, if he were held down so that ownership could control him for longer and/or save money.

However, that really isn’t likely to impact a player’s HOF resume, because a player will likely only be held down for a couple weeks or a couple months.

Goldschmidt was an 8th round pick out of Texas State, so he wasn’t exactly expected to be on the fast track to the show. Still, he debuted just a little over two years after being drafted, skipping Triple-A in the process.

There’s an argument that Kris Bryant not only started 2015 in Triple-A because of service-time manipulation, but he probably could’ve handled MLB pitching in 2014. That said, he likely could be on the HOF path, regardless, if his production hadn’t dipped in the past few seasons.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

there isn't an argument about KB, only a severely outlandish reach. don't mean to be a dick, but this is quite egregious.

tlschwerz · 09-14-2021, 02:02 AM

No, stop

eye4talent · 09-14-2021, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cloakroom

there isn't an argument about KB, only a severely outlandish reach. don't mean to be a dick, but this is quite egregious.

What’s egregious?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

cloakroom · 09-14-2021, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eye4talent

What’s egregious?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

you shoehorning KB into a HoF track because he was held down for a few months. there's no real argument for service time maniplution in '14 despite him hitting well. regardless, he's a great player who had their peak killed by injuires.

eye4talent · 09-14-2021, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cloakroom

you shoehorning KB into a HoF track because he was held down for a few months. there's no real argument for service time maniplution in '14 despite him hitting well. regardless, he's a great player who had their peak killed by injuires.

Hmm... Feel free to re-read what I wrote. I suggested he could’ve come up in ‘14, but my point is that when he debuted has little or no impact on his HOF hopes—his production downturn these past few seasons is what has likely dampened any such hopes.

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09-13-2021, 09:16 PM	#1
66_Fiat Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Marysville, OH Posts: 3,168	Should MiLB stats count towards potential HoF's Veteran Committees have been rightfully voting in Negro League players that had the skill, but lacked opportunity. This is an apples to oranges comparison due to obvious circumstances. I'm only drawing the comparison that MiLB players are playing against the best talent among them at the time within a professional baseball league. It's not their fault the owners want to save $3-$20M and a year (or three) despite their talent. If the MiLB players are also well above their peers, shouldn't that count towards their greatness? Just recently, we can look to Goldschmidt and Bryant. They were ready for Opening Day the spring after they graduated college. Hell, Goldschmidt had 2 full MLB seasons of ABs (3 years in the minors) and averaged 42HR/132RBI, and a .317/.408/.620 slash line. Bryant also dominated in his 2+ seasons. 648 ABs in the minors. 212H, 55HR, 152RBI, 18SB, and a better OPS than Goldy (.425/.667) I'm not saying the stats should count overall (i.e., Ichiro vs Rose for lifetime professional hits), but if the CBA drastically shifts towards younger players getting the call due to a change in arbitration dates/salary constrictions, then maybe those players that got the late call ups should have their early MiLB seasons assessed as well. I'm not even considering collegiate stats. __________________ There is a difference between best hitter and best player. Paying nicely for 2013 and 2015 TTT Pujols "The Machine" patches!

09-13-2021, 09:17 PM	#2
MoreToppsPlease Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 8,676	No, but post-season stats should count. Crime Dog would be happy. __________________ IRS Tax Tip 2022-57 A hobby is any activity that a person pursues because they enjoy it and with no intention of making a profit. People operate a business with the intention of making a profit.

09-13-2021, 09:32 PM	#4
Archangel1775 Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Cali baby! Posts: 21,891	If they do, you'll have people going asking about little league stats in the future __________________ *There are the intangibles that set someone apart from the pack.So the blur isn't your inability to see his greatness, it's merely the inability to measure it.*

09-13-2021, 09:32 PM	#5
rwperu34 Member Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Tempe, AZ Posts: 8,383	I wanted to just say no but the site requires the reply to be at least five characters, so I'll say no way. __________________ Me: Did I win? Gixen: Yes. You won. Now you're broke.

09-13-2021, 09:49 PM	#8
Archangel1775 Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Cali baby! Posts: 21,891	Joey Gallo just needs 193 home runs to join the 500 Club and he's only 27. He should reach that mark by the time he's 33. Future Hall of Famer! Invest now! __________________ *There are the intangibles that set someone apart from the pack.So the blur isn't your inability to see his greatness, it's merely the inability to measure it.*

09-13-2021, 09:35 PM	#6
base set Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: NW Michigan Posts: 9,504	Baseball Card Hall of Fame only

09-13-2021, 09:52 PM	#9
Silent George Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 3,147	The stats shouldn’t count, but the circumstances of an individual player’s career should. If Bryant ends up short of a few milestones and is seen as a fringe player it should be reminded to all of the voters that he was screwed by the baseball rules at the time BECAUSE he was so good.

09-13-2021, 11:56 PM	#14
PejaD Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 4,071	No unless you consider Mike Hessman a HoF

09-14-2021, 01:10 AM	#15
mattsey9 Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Sacramento Posts: 446 mikemaiaandotis	It would do wonders for Lefty O'Doul, who should already be in for the depth and breadth of his contributions to the game. __________________ T201 Collection 50/50. 1934 Goudey 95/96 - Gehrig 1/2. 1908 Cubs Collection - Complete w/ Andy Coakley T206 Collection: 52 cards

09-14-2021, 01:17 AM	#16
cardsin47 Member Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Westminster, MD Posts: 8,761 cardsin47	No - just like your High School Grades help get you in to College, but don’t count towards your Degree once you get there….. __________________ @cardsin47 is Steve Meyer ~ #WaxReturns! PC Gem Mint Factory Sealed 5-Sport Active Player RC & Prospect SCARCE Hobby/ HTA Jumbo/ Retail/ Blaster/ Mega Boxes! ~Trout! Soto! JROD! Wemby! Luka! Mahomes! McDavid! Bedard! Erling!~

09-14-2021, 01:48 AM	#18
eye4talent Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Monterey, CA Posts: 7,925 eye4talent eye4talent	Minor league performance? No. But you touch on a potentially interesting point, in that economics of the game could theoretically affect a player’s career totals, if he were held down so that ownership could control him for longer and/or save money. However, that really isn’t likely to impact a player’s HOF resume, because a player will likely only be held down for a couple weeks or a couple months. Goldschmidt was an 8th round pick out of Texas State, so he wasn’t exactly expected to be on the fast track to the show. Still, he debuted just a little over two years after being drafted, skipping Triple-A in the process. There’s an argument that Kris Bryant not only started 2015 in Triple-A because of service-time manipulation, but he probably could’ve handled MLB pitching in 2014. That said, he likely could be on the HOF path, regardless, if his production hadn’t dipped in the past few seasons. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

09-14-2021, 02:02 AM	#22
tlschwerz Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,319 offthebaggy	No, stop __________________ http://offthebaggy.blogspot.com/