How Many Haters Don't Put Lebron In Their Top 5 Already?

[dbird3312]

I have talked to a couple people since the 2016 finals, that still don't quite put lebron up there on their all time list. Not in their top 5, I believe one of the guys said not even in their top 10. Yes of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But lebron not in the top 10? Really?

Most everyone knows about lebrons accolades. 4 mvps, 3 finals mvps (only the second player to ever do that, Jordan.) 6 straight finals appearances. a scoring title, a runner up finish in the defensive player of the year voting. A rookie of the year. 27, 7, and 7 on just a hair under 50% shooting for his career. Some of you may even have read a couple articles that try to predict where lebron will be on the all time scoring, assists, and rebounding list. All of those articles have lebron well in top 5 all time scoring, challenging Kareem for the top spot, AND have lebron in the top 5 or 10 in assists of all time. Of course being the only player ever to be in the top 5 or 10 of both.

Oh and let's not forget the last two NBA finals. Simply historic performances. The 2015 finals, playing without Kyrie or Kevin love. Even without those two lebron made it a series by averaging an ungodly 36, 13, and 9. Becoming the first player in finals history to lead his team in points, boards, assists, blocks, and steals. Then in the 2016 finals, takes down arguably the greatest team of all time after being down 3-1 in the series, by averaging 30, 11, and 9. Becoming the first player in finals history to lead BOTH teams in points, boards, assists, blocks, and steals. Bringing Cleveland it's fist major pro sports championship in 50 or 60 years.

But there is so much more to lebrons story/legacy, then just what he has sitting on his mantle. Let's take a second and realize what he has over come in his NBA career. Things no other player in history has had to deal with, let alone overcome.

Let's start with 16 yr old lebron. When he first graced the cover of sports illustrated. Already being dubbed "the King." Can you even imagine that? What were you doing when you were 16? Wacking off everyday? Playing madden? That's just speaking for myself I can tell you what you weren't doing. You weren't being called the next Michael Jordan. Since long before lebrons NBA career even officially started, he had the very unfair expectations to be the greatest basketball player on the planet. Never before nor never since, has an athlete been given such hype and pressure. Ya know what the craziest thing of all that is? Those unfair, other worldly expectations and hype, lebron has exceeded them all.

Now let's just fast forward a few years. Past the years in Cleveland when putting up Russell Westbrook numbers, dragging guys like sasha Pavlovic and Larry Hughes into the NBA finals. Past the years when people ignored him as the best player in the world for really no reason. I like to think it was just a case of Miguel Cabrera syndrome. When people don't like an athlete because they came into the league as a teenager and were clearly already better then your favorite player. It's sad but it happens.

The Miami Heat years. The "villain" years. Not only has no player dealt with the expectations and hype lebron dealt with as a teenager. No player has had a four year stretch with as much hate and criticism as lebron had. Lebron is probably the most criticized and critiqued athlete of all time, and it's really not even close. This was only magnified while playing in for Miami. Even this season, with durant signing with the Warriors. kd hasn't dealt with a quarter of the hate lebron dealt with. Yes I understand "the decision" upset a lot of people. I'm not sure how joining the 73 win team that beat you in the west finals that you pretty much had won up 3-1, is better then lebron teaming up with one of his best friends. But that's a little off topic the point being that no one has ever, or probably will ever play under so much hate and scrutiny.

the Miami Heat years, not only bringing even more criticism towards Lebron, they also brought lebrons biggest blemish on his otherwise squeaky clean resume. The 2011 finals.
This is what most of the Lebron haters first point to. What seems to escape the mind of said haters, is the fact that every NBA great not named Jordan has gone down in the finals. Magic lost 4 times. Kobe twice. Hell even Duncan and Russell lost once in the finals.
Yes that particular loss for Lebron sticks out because of how poorly he played. I would never try and deny the poor performance by Lebron in the 2011 finals. Just like I can't deny his poor performance, I can't deny the circumstances. Can you imagine being on the biggest stage in the entire sport, the NBA finals of course, and having virtually the entire sports world outside of south beach, want you to fail? Well that's what lebron did. Once he failed miserably to the delight of the sports world. He took it like a man and didn't go all cam newton cry baby on us. Which of course I'm not saying he is great for answering post game questions after the 2011 loss. I'm saying it's unbelievable he went to four straight finals, won two mvps, continued to be the best player in the world, all while receiving and enduring more hate and critiquing then any athlete ever.

What's the craziest thing about this all? Lebron is 31. I'm not sure how many realize what Jordan did in his 30s, but let's just say lebron still has a lot he is going to accomplish.

Is lebron the goat? That's not really what I was trying to say in this crazy long post that took me a full hour this morning. Idk if anyone will ever be able to pass Jordan as the greatest of all time. Not because lebron hasn't/won't accomplish enough to be considered, but because Jordan has an almost mythical legend/aura around him that can't be touched. just because he is Jordan and fans have already made up their minds. Kids who are ten years past Jordan's playing days call him the goat just because that's what the general consensus is.

Unfortunately I have to shorten this post because I have already missed out on work time this morning. All I am saying is if you don't have lebron in your top 5 or 10, then your not watching.

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[exoticprince]

This thread will turn into a battle between Lebron fans and haters, but you've mentioned a lot of key facts that make him already imho top 5 all time. Key ones being leading 2 completely different teams to NBA titles (how many players have lead 2 different teams to a title, people don't realise how difficult that is) 3 rings, 3 finals mvps, 4 reg season mvps, top 10 all time scoring, top 20 all time assists, only player in history to lead an NBA finals in points, rebounds,assists,blocks,steals while leading his team back from a 1-3 deficit to beat the team with the most reg season wins in history. It's just undeniable. And he's turning 32 next month. When he's all done it's incredible to imagine what his final accomplishments will look like

[dbird3312]

Originally Posted by exoticprince

This thread will turn into a battle between Lebron fans and haters, but you've mentioned a lot of key facts that make him already imho top 5 all time. Key ones being leading 2 completely different teams to NBA titles (how many players have lead 2 different teams to a title, people don't realise how difficult that is) 3 rings, 3 finals mvps, 4 reg season mvps, top 10 all time scoring, top 20 all time assists, only player in history to lead an NBA finals in points, rebounds,assists,blocks,steals while leading his team back from a 1-3 deficit to beat the team with the most reg season wins in history. It's just undeniable. And he's turning 32 next month. When he's all done it's incredible to imagine what his final accomplishments will look like

You didn't let me finish! I accidentally started thread before I was done! HAha thanks for the post though


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[realreodeal]

Jordan was better, Hahaha \/\/\/\/\/\/ End Thread

[bruce76]

I started a thread earlier this year making a case that lebron will be the goat. So obviously you know where my opinion falls on this subject. Right now I have him as 2nd, but I believe he will overtake MJ. I know I'm in the minority on this, and that's fine. But the numbers don't lie. The problem is, in the minds of most MJ has this mythological attachment to him and he will always be the goat no matter what. I do believe in the minds of most he is top 5. If you don't already have him in your top 10 you need to have your head examined.

[exoticprince]

Originally Posted by dbird3312

You didn't let me finish! I accidentally started thread before I was done! HAha thanks for the post though


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Lol no prob.

[6celtics33]

I'll play devil's advocate here since I'm sure I am looked at as a hater. I'll try to explain.

First I have him 6th all time currently

Second let me add that all the stuff listed by the op is true except I don't value 6 straight finals appearances coming out of the East when he has basically hand picked his team and faces inferior competition year in and year out.

Now, last year was big for him. He loses 4-1 and goes to 2-5 in the finals and that crushes him. But 3-4 with the way he played in that comeback made me clap and move him over Duncan, Hakeem, and Wilt from 9 to 6th. I agree I don't see any conceivable way he's not in everyone's top 10. I do still have him behind Jordan, Russell, Magic, Kareem, and Bird.

My rankings are a mixture of peak accolades, longevity #s, and playoff dominance. Where I think current players have an advantage is longevity #s. Look no further than Dirk about to go 30,000 and 10,000 and join Wilt, Malone, and Kareem on that list. Is he as good a scorer as any of those or rebounder for that matter? No but consistency and health and advanced training will re write these all time #s in the future as players play longer and their peaks are stretched.

For example, 4 out of my 5 top 5 players only played like 11-13 years with Kareem playing 20.

Having said that I do believe Lebron can get into the rare air of 30,000-10,000-10,000 and we will never see that again in our lifetime. He has been healthy and ready to roll from day 1 right out of high school. I do think he will challenge Kareem for best basketball resume of all time.

What I like the other players ahead of him at this point is because of what I value. You don't have to but for my list it's what I value. I value team success, individual accolades, and playoff theatre where the said player comes up big in big moments. Lebron certainly has added some of those and has big games against Detroit and Boston dating back to 2007 but he has had many many other moments that have turned me off. I think Lebron lovers want us haters to forget that stuff but as a competitor myself and someone that loves competition it's hard for me to pretend he didn't quit on his team against Boston and start looking for greener grass before the horn sounded. I don't doubt it was frustrating but Jordan got spanked by the same Boston and Detroit and he didn't give up that way.

I'd also like to add that as stated above, claiming Jordans stature in the game is mythical and not that he didn't rightfully earn it with all that he did is beyond insulting and crazy to me.

Ultimately I think Lebron lands number 2 with him being number 1 in a great many people's heart who either have a hometown affinity for him OR never saw Jordan play in his prime/hated him because he torched your team every playoffs.

So I guess if that makes me a hater, haters goin hate

#hater

[Branesergen]

Jordan has 2 3peats. He didn't have to go to other teams to win them. He took his crappy team to back to back to back championships...Twice. He didn't have Wade, Bosh, Kyrie or Love supporting him. To me Jordan is like Peyton Manning - He made receivers famous and great but when they moved on from Peyton they absolutely sucked. Jordan made his team better, LeBron just has better teams.

[6celtics33]

I think said blinders Jordan fans have, Lebron fans also have. I don't think competition is valued as much anymore. I think Lebron gets a pass on his team's result many times they fail whether it be outside causes or it was his teammates fault or the coach. Yet when he wins its all him, he took two different teams and led this and that. Kyrie scored 40 in one of those comeback games and nailed a big step back 3 to seal game 7 as well. Taking two different teams would mean more if they weren't the two most loaded teams in the conference each time.

[Braswell10]

I have never watched Jordan play, and I am a big Lebron fan. When other people speak of Jordan, it seems like they are talking about someone out of a fairytale. Believe me, I think that Jordan is the GOAT right now, but when so many people hype him up as being some mystical creature, others start to follow.

[Starman101]

I like Lebron, but he is not in my top 5 All-Time yet, but could be by the time his career is said and done

As far as MJ goes....

Nobody's even close to him as the GOAT

Its not mythical, its reality

[Bruin7]

I'm not a fan of Lebron but he definitely belongs in the top 5 of all time. He was on a lot of poor Cavs teams which he took to the Finals year after year.

[exoticprince]

Originally Posted by Branesergen

Jordan has 2 3peats. He didn't have to go to other teams to win them. He took his crappy team to back to back to back championships...Twice. He didn't have Wade, Bosh, Kyrie or Love supporting him. To me Jordan is like Peyton Manning - He made receivers famous and great but when they moved on from Peyton they absolutely sucked. Jordan made his team better, LeBron just has better teams.

It's become impossible to start a thread like this and avoid it turning into an MJ vs Lebron debate lol. As of this exact moment MJ is untouchable at number 1, that's not to say Lebron won't make a case by time time he's done. Op is asking about top 5 or 10 all time. Not whether Lebron is better than MJ. And if you watched 90s ball you'd know MJ didn't play with a bunch of scrubs. What you say is essentially a huge diss to Pippen, Rodman, Grant, Cartwright, and Kerr/Paxton who hit some huge shots to get those rings.

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

I'll play devil's advocate here since I'm sure I am looked at as a hater. I'll try to explain.

First I have him 6th all time currently

Second let me add that all the stuff listed by the op is true except I don't value 6 straight finals appearances coming out of the East when he has basically hand picked his team and faces inferior competition year in and year out.

Now, last year was big for him. He loses 4-1 and goes to 2-5 in the finals and that crushes him. But 3-4 with the way he played in that comeback made me clap and move him over Duncan, Hakeem, and Wilt from 9 to 6th. I agree I don't see any conceivable way he's not in everyone's top 10. I do still have him behind Jordan, Russell, Magic, Kareem, and Bird.

My rankings are a mixture of peak accolades, longevity #s, and playoff dominance. Where I think current players have an advantage is longevity #s. Look no further than Dirk about to go 30,000 and 10,000 and join Wilt, Malone, and Kareem on that list. Is he as good a scorer as any of those or rebounder for that matter? No but consistency and health and advanced training will re write these all time #s in the future as players play longer and their peaks are stretched.

For example, 4 out of my 5 top 5 players only played like 11-13 years with Kareem playing 20.

Having said that I do believe Lebron can get into the rare air of 30,000-10,000-10,000 and we will never see that again in our lifetime. He has been healthy and ready to roll from day 1 right out of high school. I do think he will challenge Kareem for best basketball resume of all time.

What I like the other players ahead of him at this point is because of what I value. You don't have to but for my list it's what I value. I value team success, individual accolades, and playoff theatre where the said player comes up big in big moments. Lebron certainly has added some of those and has big games against Detroit and Boston dating back to 2007 but he has had many many other moments that have turned me off. I think Lebron lovers want us haters to forget that stuff but as a competitor myself and someone that loves competition it's hard for me to pretend he didn't quit on his team against Boston and start looking for greener grass before the horn sounded. I don't doubt it was frustrating but Jordan got spanked by the same Boston and Detroit and he didn't give up that way.

I'd also like to add that as stated above, claiming Jordans stature in the game is mythical and not that he didn't rightfully earn it with all that he did is beyond insulting and crazy to me.

Ultimately I think Lebron lands number 2 with him being number 1 in a great many people's heart who either have a hometown affinity for him OR never saw Jordan play in his prime/hated him because he torched your team every playoffs.

So I guess if that makes me a hater, haters goin hate

#hater

I love your list because you have Magic in it

[SPauthentic84]

Its funny to me...some days I think this forum is going down hill in members/card talk

Then all it takes is a MJ/Lebron thread to awaken everyone

...show off cards instead please BO

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by Braswell10

I have never watched Jordan play, and I am a big Lebron fan. When other people speak of Jordan, it seems like they are talking about someone out of a fairytale. Believe me, I think that Jordan is the GOAT right now, but when so many people hype him up as being some mystical creature, others start to follow.

In short, he scored a lot which people love, he was the coolest person alive and everybody wanted to be him and like him, he was also in the top 3 on the defensive end year in and out, he was extremely creative and entertaining with his moves, and when it mattered most he always seemed to rise to the occasion. He made you feel like he couldn't lose and that he would always find a way. I think his mythical nature sort of resembles like a bad A gunslinger cowboy from the old west. He just found himself in the middle of playoff drama all the time and and always seemed to come out of it on top.

He was the singularly most driven person I've ever seen. He would take the slightest jab and turn it into a reason to kill another team. He always had a chip on his shoulder even at his retirement speech, can't turn it off.

A good example of the difference between him and today's players, he was injured his second year and missed most of the year. He came back toward the end on a minutes restriction and front office was trying to tank for a draft pick. He wouldn't have it. He was so pissed. Finally he won out and they squeaked in as the 8th seed against the 86 Celtics who are widely considered the best single season team ever. He wasn't going to win, he couldn't win but went to old Boston Garden and scored 112 points in the first 2 games. They lost both of course but he wasn't thinking about vacation or finding his next team, he was bent on finding a way to get it done.

I'll always have that mythical attachment to him. He had no quit in him. That's for sure.

[6celtics33]

I agree Lebron is 100% top 10, and probably should be in a high % of top 5s

Sorry for derailing the thread, was in response to Bruce, my bad everybody

[IamRalpho]

I have Lebron either 3 or 4 right now, he wont get above 3 though.

One could argue Bird over Lebron due to his limitations, era he played etc but as a Celtics fan I think hes past Bird right now. I am not sure I put him ahead of Ervin just yet though. More I think of it he probably is.

MJ
Russell
Lebron
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Kareem
Oscar

Then you can mix and match of Cousy, Hondo, West, Baylor, Shaq, Dr J, Malone, Barkley, Duncan, KG etc

[robert0629]

LeBron is definitely top six right now. A couple of things that hurt him in my opinion:

1. He basically quit against Boston and Dallas. Compare that to Kobe when the Lakers loss to Boston. In Game 6 they're getting killed and Kobe refuses to give up. He's still firing away and his body language suggests that he still believed he could win. LeBron's body language on the other hand is the complete opposite. He knows it's over and he's not even trying.

2. He has the best team record wise in the NBA in 2008-09, and they lose to the Orlando Magic in six games. Really? This is not easily forgotten. If they'd gotten to the finals and lost to LA it wouldn't have been a big deal. But not even getting there and losing to the Magic. That's pretty weak in my opinion.

3. His two big free agent decisions. Joining Wade and Bosh in Miami just to win some championships. Of course you're going to win when you do that. I know he wasn't as lucky as some of the other top players when it comes to teammates. But you just don't see that on the resumes of Jordan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Kobe, and many other great players. As far as rejoining Cleveland, does anybody really believe he would have done that if they didn't have Kyrie and the number one pick? I just don't see that happening. Everyone, including me, loves that he went back to Cleveland. But lets face it he wouldn't have done that if he didn't believe they had a really good chance of competing.

These are minor points. But three things that in my opinion are overrated:

1. Not to take anything away from LeBron and Miami when they beat San Antonio for their second championship, but that was the luckiest ending to an NBA Finals we will ever see. They certainly earned it by being that close and putting themselves in a position where they could win. But LeBron has three rings instead of two by the slimmest of margins.

2. As someone else mentioned, his six straight Finals appearances are not as impressive when you consider two things. He joined great players in Miami and Cleveland, and the lack of competition in the East. There's no way this happens if his team is in the Western Conference.

3. His performance in the first Finals against Golden State. In my opinion this is one of the most overrated performances in the Finals. I give him an "A" for effort, but I don't understand how he almost won the MVP. I know Kyrie and Love were out. But you're going to score points and get assists when you're the only player allowed to carry the ball. His shooting percentage for the series was under 40 percent and his free-throw percentage was under 70 percent. I get that he was double teamed at times and Iguodala defended him well. But you're not going to win when you shoot like that, so you might as well let someone else handle the ball at times.

Having said all that I do believe that LeBron has a shot at the number two spot. He has many postives and plenty of success on his resume. Unfortunately he has more negatives than some of the guys I would put ahead of him right now - Jordan, Bird, Magic, Russell, and Kareem.

[6celtics33]

Well said, completely agree

[dasiegel]

So many great points in this thread on both sides but I think the most important one is that people always think what is going on right in front of their eyes is the best thing.

I watched the 84 Western Conference playoff game between Dallas and the Lakers and at 37 years old, Kareem had 33 points 11 rebounds and was completely dominant and by far the best player on the floor.

I actually saw him play once but I was like 5. Just thinking about that one player and that one example just reminded me how much we like to dismiss the past. Because as big as a Ewing fan as I am, and as much as I value Olajuwon as an all time great, there is literally nothing they could have done to stop Kareem's hook shot.

So the fact that I never saw that guy in his prime, or Wilt in his prime or Oscar in his prime or Jerry West in his prime makes it really hard for me to think younger LeBron fan can appreciate the guys who I did see.

And what I did see was potentially the best era of basketball that there was with MJ Bird Magic Barkley Olajuwon Ewing Malone Stockton Isaiah Drexler Robinson and so on.

And in that era I saw Jordan at some point destroy all of them.

But even putting MJ to the side. I don't think people appreciate just how good Bird and Magic were and I imagine my parent's generation thinks the same thing about guys like Kareem Russell Oscar and Jerry West.

So I definitely don't think it's crazy if people don't feel LeBron is a top-five lock. But in my life he's a top 5 lock for the players I've seen. And hes somewhere in the same sphere as Kobe Bird and Magic for me, depending on how much you value or take away from the points made bf this post in this thread.

[IamRalpho]

I will say this about Lebron and this is coming from someone who bought his jersey the second he was drafted and wound up despising him for all the theatrics and whining he did over the years....

He is special. I was too young to appreciate Bird or Magic and I guess part of MJ but realizing we are witnessing one of the 3-5 best players of all time....its impressive.

He still gets a little theatrical and whines a bit too much but I appreciate his game so much more now. Even tho I think the Warriors blew the title more so than the Cavs winning it....what Lebron did is astonishing. We need a 30 for 30 over that series.

And hes a good dude too! Married his high school sweet heart right?, donates to charity, involved in politics, speaks up on issues.

I will never be a Lebron "fan" but I appreciate him now more so than I did when he ran to the Heat and was just a clown.

[Branesergen]

Originally Posted by dasiegel

So many great points in this thread on both sides but I think the most important one is that people always think what is going on right in front of their eyes is the best thing.

I watched the 84 Western Conference playoff game between Dallas and the Lakers and at 37 years old, Kareem had 33 points 11 rebounds and was completely dominant and by far the best player on the floor.

I actually saw him play once but I was like 5. Just thinking about that one player and that one example just reminded me how much we like to dismiss the past. Because as big as a Ewing fan as I am, and as much as I value Olajuwon as an all time great, there is literally nothing they could have done to stop Kareem's hook shot.

So the fact that I never saw that guy in his prime, or Wilt in his prime or Oscar in his prime or Jerry West in his prime makes it really hard for me to think younger LeBron fan can appreciate the guys who I did see.

And what I did see was potentially the best era of basketball that there was with MJ Bird Magic Barkley Olajuwon Ewing Malone Stockton Isaiah Drexler Robinson and so on.

And in that era I saw Jordan at some point destroy all of them.

But even putting MJ to the side. I don't think people appreciate just how good Bird and Magic were and I imagine my parent's generation thinks the same thing about guys like Kareem Russell Oscar and Jerry West.

So I definitely don't think it's crazy if people don't feel LeBron is a top-five lock. But in my life he's a top 5 lock for the players I've seen. And hes somewhere in the same sphere as Kobe Bird and Magic for me, depending on how much you value or take away from the points made bf this post in this thread.

I think you hit the nail on the head! I got to watch Jordan play and it was amazing! I get to see LeBron play and its just not the same for the very same reasons others have commented on. Which is probably a reason he's not in my top 5. While great, I have had the privilege to see better.

[bruce76]

I think this dude sums up about 95% how I feel about Lebron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAgxY_W5Xok

[mc1]

How official are any of these rankings anyway?

I have him top 20, maybe top 10. Big deal.