PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[chezball]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

How would PSA have a civil action against anyone? It's THEIR job to catch altered cards no matter who is submitting them.

Feel the same on this.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by superdan49

PSA should pursue civil action against Moser and anyone knowingly submitting cards on his behalf.

However, I don't see them pursuing this if it is PWCC. They probably figure the good outweighs the bad with PWCC. Look at all the glowing press coverage PSA got through the PWCC sale of the PMG Green Jordan. I'm sure a lot more high-dollar guys have taken a look at sports cards, particularly PSA graded sports cards, as a result of that sale.

PSA doesn't need PWCC's auctions to get press coverage. I know you're not on the social media but they get plenty of press coverage all the time whenever a monster card sells for a new record -- Heritage, REA, any of the major AHs. And in this economy it's happening a lot.

PSA is ripshit pissed. Someone who they assumed was a large, consummate client turns out to be proactively trying to defraud them and do damage to their brand? I don't think they're going to say, "hey, no hard feelings, thanks for that great sale you had."

Their name is getting dragged through the mud. A lot of that has to do with them getting lackadaisical but some of it might also have to do with the fact that they probably didn't expect a client like PWCC to be submitting 100 high-dollar cards that have all been altered.

PSA probably doesn't look kindly on the fact that PWCC deceived them by submitting cards for known doctors that had been banned by PSA. Any way you look at it, PWCC has been giving PSA a giant FU over and over for years and now it's all coming out and PSA looks like a fool. I could be wrong but I don't see any way that PSA takes a bath on all of this. If it were me, I'd be going hard and loud after PWCC so that everyone knew exactly how and what transpired.

Arthur

[KhalDrogo]

We don't have proof, yet, that Moser is banned from submitting to PSA.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

PSA doesn't need PWCC's auctions to get press coverage. I know you're not on the social media but they get plenty of press coverage all the time whenever a monster card sells for a new record -- Heritage, REA, any of the major AHs. And in this economy it's happening a lot.

PSA is ripshit pissed. Someone who they assumed was a large, consummate client turns out to be proactively trying to defraud them and do damage to their brand? I don't think they're going to say, "hey, no hard feelings, thanks for that great sale you had."

Their name is getting dragged through the mud. A lot of that has to do with them getting lackadaisical but some of it might also have to do with the fact that they probably didn't expect a client like PWCC to be submitting 100 high-dollar cards that have all been altered.

PSA probably doesn't look kindly on the fact that PWCC deceived them by submitting cards for known doctors that had been banned by PSA. Any way you look at it, PWCC has been giving PSA a giant FU over and over for years and now it's all coming out and PSA looks like a fool. I could be wrong but I don't see any way that PSA takes a bath on all of this. If it were me, I'd be going hard and loud after PWCC so that everyone knew exactly how and what transpired.

Arthur

I hope you're right. Outside of potential criminal charges (which who knows if that ever comes about), PSA has the most to lose with guaranty claims. Let's hope they go after the perpetrators if nothing more than an act of self preservation (both reputation and monetary).

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

We don't have proof, yet, that Moser is banned from submitting to PSA.

I definitely made some leaps of logic but it was in reference to my post with the giant IF so I thought that gave me a little artistic freedom.

Arthur

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

PSA doesn't need PWCC's auctions to get press coverage. I know you're not on the social media but they get plenty of press coverage all the time whenever a monster card sells for a new record -- Heritage, REA, any of the major AHs. And in this economy it's happening a lot.

PSA is ripshit pissed. Someone who they assumed was a large, consummate client turns out to be proactively trying to defraud them and do damage to their brand? I don't think they're going to say, "hey, no hard feelings, thanks for that great sale you had."

Their name is getting dragged through the mud. A lot of that has to do with them getting lackadaisical but some of it might also have to do with the fact that they probably didn't expect a client like PWCC to be submitting 100 high-dollar cards that have all been altered.

PSA probably doesn't look kindly on the fact that PWCC deceived them by submitting cards for known doctors that had been banned by PSA. Any way you look at it, PWCC has been giving PSA a giant FU over and over for years and now it's all coming out and PSA looks like a fool. I could be wrong but I don't see any way that PSA takes a bath on all of this. If it were me, I'd be going hard and loud after PWCC so that everyone knew exactly how and what transpired.

Arthur

the "Tenets" are also a big FU to PSA's standards for doctored cards.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

I hope you're right. Outside of potential criminal charges (which who knows if that ever comes about), PSA has the most to lose with guaranty claims. Let's hope they go after the perpetrators if nothing more than an act of self preservation (both reputation and monetary).

The fact is that PSA knows who submitted each and every one of these cards we have outed. And I guarantee out of the thousands of people that submit cards to PSA, this bad guy list is just a few names long. My guess is they'd rather take care of business behind closed doors rather than pursing this openly. But we will see.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by superdan49

The fact is that PSA knows who submitted each and every one of these cards we have outed. And I guarantee out of the thousands of people that submit cards to PSA, this bad guy list is just a few names long. My guess is they'd rather take care of business behind closed doors rather than pursing this openly. But we will see.

I'm always an optimist and definitely subscribe to the "a small group of dedicated people on the side of right can make a difference in this world." And consequently, as long as we don't give up, eventually word of this will spread enough that a large population in the card industry will know what's going on and act accordingly.

As such, I really hope PSA doesn't think this will just fade away over time, but regards this as a serious jeopardy to their core business model and acts accordingly to correct. I don't care if it's private or public at this point, but changes have to be made and people made accountable to reinstall confidence.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

I'm always an optimist and definitely subscribe to the "a small group of dedicated people on the side of right can make a difference in this world." And consequently, as long as we don't give up, eventually word of this will spread enough that a large population in the card industry will know what's going on and act accordingly.

As such, I really hope PSA doesn't think this will just fade away over time, but regards this as a serious jeopardy to their core business model and acts accordingly to correct. I don't care if it's private or public at this point, but changes have to be made and people made accountable to reinstall confidence.

Let's not forget Beckett. The impression I get is that the situation there is closer to outright incest.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

I'm always an optimist and definitely subscribe to the "a small group of dedicated people on the side of right can make a difference in this world." And consequently, as long as we don't give up, eventually word of this will spread enough that a large population in the card industry will know what's going on and act accordingly.

As such, I really hope PSA doesn't think this will just fade away over time, but regards this as a serious jeopardy to their core business model and acts accordingly to correct. I don't care if it's private or public at this point, but changes have to be made and people made accountable to reinstall confidence.

rest assured they are working on it

[Johnny Drama]

I was cleaning out pictures on my phone this morning and stumbled across this photo from last years national. Anyone notice the first name on the list? Maybe PSA needs to step up and start banning these clowns who are notorious trimmers.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Let's not forget Beckett. The impression I get is that the situation there is closer to outright incest.

Beckett is in a strange spot, as they are not accountable to anyone and i do not believe they back up their slabs

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Johnny Drama

I was cleaning out pictures on my phone this morning and stumbled across this photo from last years national. Anyone notice the first name on the list? Maybe PSA needs to step up and start banning these clowns who are notorious trimmers.

and MOSER on the bottom?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Johnny Drama

I was cleaning out pictures on my phone this morning and stumbled across this photo from last years national. Anyone notice the first name on the list? Maybe PSA needs to step up and start banning these clowns who are notorious trimmers.

[mjohnatgt]

Different Moser; this one says Matthew. Could be related though.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

Different Moser; this one says Matthew. Could be related though.

Yes, not "Gary", but still

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

Yes, not "Gary", but still

Life is full of coincidences, but that surely is a fascinating one.

[ThoseBackPages]

"Mark Presser" would be a great card Dr name

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by Johnny Drama

I was cleaning out pictures on my phone this morning and stumbled across this photo from last years national. Anyone notice the first name on the list? Maybe PSA needs to step up and start banning these clowns who are notorious trimmers.

So we can confirm that Burge, as of last year, was still on good terms with PSA.

The "Matthew Moser" name might be a coincidence. Let's see what we can find on that name.

[mjohnatgt]

Search Gary and Matthew Moser and you get an obituary for a Gary Moser of Quakertown PA and his surviving son Matthew.

[pspa123]

Over 100 Matthew Mosers on LinkedIn. I wouldn't presume anything here.

[GatorPie]

To me, PSA suing anyone involved in this could only serve to highlight their own incompetence or even worse, possibly fuel the perception of corruption, which is even worse. Even if they win, it would be made glaringly public that hundreds of altered cards slipped by their graders, something that is not supposed to happen regardless of who is submitting the cards. Personally, I think they'd be smarter to do nothing than to push this too hard.

[superdan49]

Here's what I found:

There is a Matthew Moser who collected autographs and started a now-defunct cut autograph company called "A Sign of History." Apparently their specialty was encapsulating previously-certified autos and then trimming them down to fit into custom slabs.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...uto-1727575325 — Matthew Moser's signature on the letter of authenticity
https://web.archive.org/web/20140212...ofhistory.com/ — Archive of the company's website
https://timwallach.blogspot.com/2014...f-history.html — A Tim Wallach collector quotes an e-mail from Matt Moser in a 2014 blog post

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

To me, PSA suing anyone involved in this could only serve to highlight their own incompetence or even worse, possibly fuel the perception of corruption, which is even worse. Even if they win, it would be made glaringly public that hundreds of altered cards slipped by their graders, something that is not supposed to happen regardless of who is submitting the cards. Personally, I think they'd be smarter to do nothing than to push this too hard.

In the long run, nothing is worse than the negative short term publicity. Cat is out of the bag now. They have to do something. Don’t forget they’re a public company. With this info out in the open, shareholders would have a huge claim against management including criminal proceedings if they do nothing and then an event exposes this down the road to large shareholders.

[corndog]

PSA Cert #27015451

1909-11 T206 Ty Cobb GREEN PORTRAIT

Value gain of $2,766.00

This card was sold by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser) as a PSA-2 on December 04, 2016 for $2,061.00. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1390194
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-3.5 for $4,827.00 on March 9, 2017. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1457190

Yellow circles are fiber or print mark identifiers.
Red square is the entire back and what you can see on the front. Stains removed, corner repairs and ?.