Who has had the better overall NBA career - Kobe or Duncan?

[the27guy]

I have a great deal of respect for Kobe Bryant... he's one of the best ever....

but the answer IS Duncan. Kobe had a top 3 in the league bigman for EVERY ONE of his championships, and when his teammates were really bad, he even missed the playoffs.

The only thing that could keep Duncan from winning 50+ is a lockout.....

Tim Duncan is the third best center (no, he's not a power forward) of all time behind Russell and Wilt, and the fifth best player ever (MJ, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Duncan).

[volblorx8634]

Originally Posted by EMD34

Duncan has had the better career (his teams were always a lock for 50 wins), but Kobe is the better player.

I think this is exactly it. Duncan definitely had the superior career making the playoffs every season; his team being dominant and a contender from start to end of his career; much better teammate and franchise guy. But Kobe all in all has more "weapons" if you can call it that and dominated the league more individually throughout his peak years.

I'd take Duncan no brainer, though. I'd rather have the steadiness of Duncan over 17 seasons than the ups and downs Kobe's teams have had over his career. Granted, it is due to Duncan being on the Spurs, but I think Duncan himself has contributed to the Spurs ability to run their organization the way they do.

[pac213up]

Originally Posted by AdamG007

Duncan was never the singular force that Kobe was, but he has had the more consistent career.

If you factor in defensive impact....Duncan was more of a singular force than Kobe.

[bdoody42]

Originally Posted by volblorx8634

I think this is exactly it. Duncan definitely had the superior career making the playoffs every season; his team being dominant and a contender from start to end of his career; much better teammate and franchise guy. But Kobe all in all has more "weapons" if you can call it that and dominated the league more individually throughout his peak years.

I'd take Duncan no brainer, though. I'd rather have the steadiness of Duncan over 17 seasons than the ups and downs Kobe's teams have had over his career. Granted, it is due to Duncan being on the Spurs, but I think Duncan himself has contributed to the Spurs ability to run their organization the way they do.

I would say both players had some very good teammates. Kobe played the best player in Shaq. Both had great help along the way.

[pingbling23]

not to take anything away from duncan, but i would have to go with kobe. if someone asked me how i would want my career to be, i would want it more similar to kobes then duncan. duncan has been steady his whole career, but the peaks that kobes career has had are tough to touch.

[cadillac540]

Originally Posted by pac213up

If you factor in defensive impact....Duncan was more of a singular force than Kobe.

[pac213up]

Originally Posted by cadillac540

Not really surprising.

[volblorx8634]

Originally Posted by bdoody42

I would say both players had some very good teammates. Kobe played the best player in Shaq. Both had great help along the way.

I was referring to Duncan as a better teammate himself (not having better teammates). He never forced anyone out of town to be the top dog, never demanded a trade, and was always easy to play with and accommodate as a player.

[elee712]

I think Duncan's championships are more a result of the system. Kobe's was a result of the talent which I think is a better measure of the player. When you talk about the spurs championships...I think most of the credit will be given to Pop.

That's why the Spurs, even with all the success and championships -are not as popular as they should be. In general, casual basketball fans will not turn on a game to watch Duncan, or ginoboli or parker. They want to see Kobe, Lebron, KD because you associate the team with these guys.

[Hegotgame15]

Originally Posted by elee712

I think Duncan's championships are more a result of the system. Kobe's was a result of the talent which I think is a better measure of the player. When you talk about the spurs championships...I think most of the credit will be given to Pop.

That's why the Spurs, even with all the success and championships -are not as popular as they should be. In general, casual basketball fans will not turn on a game to watch Duncan, or ginoboli or parker. They want to see Kobe, Lebron, KD because you associate the team with these guys.

Nailed.

[LakeShow]

Baffles me that this is so one sided towards Duncan. Im scratching my head.

[cadillac540]

Originally Posted by LakeShow

Baffles me that this is so one sided towards Duncan. Im scratching my head.

Duncan is hot right now coming off a championship beating the Heat. Ask this question about 4-5 years after they retire, and its Kobe in a landslide. Everyone's a 'prisoner of the moment' so to speak.

[pac213up]

Originally Posted by LakeShow

Baffles me that this is so one sided towards Duncan. Im scratching my head.

It shouldn't baffle you though. Tim Duncan was a force on both ends of the court. Kobe had some good defensive years but rarely is a SG going to impact the total defense the way a PF/C can. Duncan destroys Kobe in every advanced defensive metric and has a higher career PER.

[ChicoCheese]

It is REALLY close, but as a Lakers fan I have to go with Kobe.

[dasiegel]

Originally Posted by LakeShow

Baffles me that this is so one sided towards Duncan. Im scratching my head.

+1. Listen. Duncan is so much more likable. Our society was this close to deeming Kobe a rapist! The guy has had some redemption and some more respect after 3 straight finals and 2 in a row without Shaq, but he is just not well liked.

I am not a Kobe fan.

But... I will tell you, and I also think Duncan is top 15 all time, Kobe is the 2nd best player I've ever seen. I've said it dozens of times in this forum. You may hate the guy but he literally wills wins out of his team at times. He's got the closest killer instinct to Jordan that we have seen, excellent moves, great shot, great D (altho its dropped off) and for this to be a landslide of Duncan votes just means a) people don't like Kobe b) when you are injured and not seen, you are quickly forgotten.

Kobe has all the accolades, has avg. 35 in a season, 81 in a game, titles, individual and team awards. Like Lebron haters (and I realllllly don't like Lebron), we should all respect and enjoy how special these guys are. Don't get jaded just because Timmy is also amazing and a much more humble soft spoken guy, Kobe is the better all time player.

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by the27guy

I have a great deal of respect for Kobe Bryant... he's one of the best ever....

but the answer IS Duncan. Kobe had a top 3 in the league bigman for EVERY ONE of his championships, and when his teammates were really bad, he even missed the playoffs.

The only thing that could keep Duncan from winning 50+ is a lockout.....

Tim Duncan is the third best center (no, he's not a power forward) of all time behind Russell and Wilt, and the fifth best player ever (MJ, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Duncan).

I 100% agree that Duncan is ahead of Kobe (ever so slightly) but the 3rd best center of all time? He played PF as much throughout his career and is regarded as the greatest PF of all time (debatable which he really is, C or PF).

If we classify him as a center though he is not #3. Its subjective sure but I vote Kareem, Shaq and Olajuwon above him without a doubt. I also put all three ahead in the all time player list along with Larry Bird and possibly Oscar Robertson.

I can see an argument based on rings against Hakeem but I'd counter that he won 2 with one of the weakest teams to ever win a ring and was far more skilled across the board. Shaq there is almost no arguing. He had maybe the sickest finals performances ever statistically. He was also the most dominant force i've ever seen. Kareem there is no arguing. I see him as the number 2 or 3 player ever.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by GC1980

I 100% agree that Duncan is ahead of Kobe (ever so slightly) but the 3rd best center of all time? He played PF as much throughout his career and is regarded as the greatest PF of all time (debatable which he really is, C or PF).

If we classify him as a center though he is not #3. Its subjective sure but I vote Kareem, Shaq and Olajuwon above him without a doubt. I also put all three ahead in the all time player list along with Larry Bird and possibly Oscar Robertson.

I can see an argument based on rings against Hakeem but I'd counter that he won 2 with one of the weakest teams to ever win a ring and was far more skilled across the board. Shaq there is almost no arguing. He had maybe the sickest finals performances ever statistically. He was also the most dominant force i've ever seen. Kareem there is no arguing. I see him as the number 2 or 3 player ever.

I always like your posts and I agree with you usually, but we definitely disagree here. I think you've got the right names as competition, and I'm sure you also agree that Wilt and Russell are ahead of him... so let's look at the three guys you mentioned.

Shaq -- Yes, he was amazing. He won 4 rings I believe (less than Duncan) and every one of them was with a top 5 shooting guard of all time while they were in their primes (3 w Kobe, and one with Wade where Wade was clearly the best player in the series). Shaq scored a ton more points than Duncan in his career but had serious issues staying on the court at game ends (historically bad FT shooter) and had some really abysmal years at the end that helped him pad those career pt and rb numbers. Duncan is a better defender and team-offense oriented player.... there is no way I'm taking Shaq here. I don't think it's close, and most really good basketball minds would agree w me here.

Olajuwon-- this is a closer one. I absolutely agree with you on his supporting cast in his first championship. Who was his best teammate that year? He was amazing. You look at some of the best lines in basketball history (5x5's) and he really was AMAZING on both sides of the ball. Blocks, steals, assists, rebounding.... incredible. But, he did win just 2 rings... and he never lost to the greatest of all time in the finals (like Stockton and Malone did)... so I can't put him higher than Duncan. 5 to 2. Duncan wins, because like the Dream, he was one of the best on both sides of the ball in the league for more than a decade. Again, I think most really knowledgeable basketball writers agree w me here.

Jabbar-- Here is where I do not agree w most of the experts. A lot of people have Jabbar as the 3rd best center ever. He won, I think 6 MVP's, and 5 championships? Is that right? All time scorer... played forever... lots of stuff that's difficult to compete with.

The reasons why I put Duncan higher is that (correct me if I'm wrong), he won EVERY one of his rings with either Oscar or Magic... two of the greatest 10 players ever. AND his MVP's, I believe, were largely in the 70s during the time where the ABA and NBA were in existence, and the talent was split amongst the two. He prob wins a few less MVP's competing with Erving and Moses and others who spent a chunk of their primes in the ABA.

Duncan has obviously played with two other hall-of-famers, a guy who was picked late first round and another picked late second round... but clearly not two of the top ten players of all time. By the slightest of margins... I'm taking Duncan. Duncan, third best CENTER ever.

[skycat]

Duncan is the only great to ever win a chip in 3 different decades. That is one hell of a career!

[Srt42004n]

You look at the past 15 Years Duncan has won with a dif cast or role players, Kobe hasn't won anything with the changing roster.

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by the27guy

I always like your posts and I agree with you usually, but we definitely disagree here. I think you've got the right names as competition, and I'm sure you also agree that Wilt and Russell are ahead of him... so let's look at the three guys you mentioned.

Shaq -- Yes, he was amazing. He won 4 rings I believe (less than Duncan) and every one of them was with a top 5 shooting guard of all time while they were in their primes (3 w Kobe, and one with Wade where Wade was clearly the best player in the series). Shaq scored a ton more points than Duncan in his career but had serious issues staying on the court at game ends (historically bad FT shooter) and had some really abysmal years at the end that helped him pad those career pt and rb numbers. Duncan is a better defender and team-offense oriented player.... there is no way I'm taking Shaq here. I don't think it's close, and most really good basketball minds would agree w me here.

Olajuwon-- this is a closer one. I absolutely agree with you on his supporting cast in his first championship. Who was his best teammate that year? He was amazing. You look at some of the best lines in basketball history (5x5's) and he really was AMAZING on both sides of the ball. Blocks, steals, assists, rebounding.... incredible. But, he did win just 2 rings... and he never lost to the greatest of all time in the finals (like Stockton and Malone did)... so I can't put him higher than Duncan. 5 to 2. Duncan wins, because like the Dream, he was one of the best on both sides of the ball in the league for more than a decade. Again, I think most really knowledgeable basketball writers agree w me here.

Jabbar-- Here is where I do not agree w most of the experts. A lot of people have Jabbar as the 3rd best center ever. He won, I think 6 MVP's, and 5 championships? Is that right? All time scorer... played forever... lots of stuff that's difficult to compete with.

The reasons why I put Duncan higher is that (correct me if I'm wrong), he won EVERY one of his rings with either Oscar or Magic... two of the greatest 10 players ever. AND his MVP's, I believe, were largely in the 70s during the time where the ABA and NBA were in existence, and the talent was split amongst the two. He prob wins a few less MVP's competing with Erving and Moses and others who spent a chunk of their primes in the ABA.

Duncan has obviously played with two other hall-of-famers, a guy who was picked late first round and another picked late second round... but clearly not two of the top ten players of all time. By the slightest of margins... I'm taking Duncan. Duncan, third best CENTER ever.

So nice to have a debate with someone that has such well thought out and very defensible points on these boards! I can agree with a lot of what you wrote and understand every point.

While I respect your stance on Shaq and Kareem having at least one top flight teammate, I would argue Duncan's success is very much tied with the success of the Spurs and vice versa. He has been the key cog and a major reason for their rings and sustained elite status BUT he also has always had excellent teams and coaching as well. David Robinson, Parker, Ginobili and just amazingly put together role players all helps. I won't take a huge knock on Shaq's place in history because of Kobe's presence. He was a force and a much better defender than people remember, especially in his non fat years.

Shaq was simply the more dominant player and what he did in the playoffs throughout the three peat is simply mind boggling. His size and conditioning issues were always an problem for his sustainability and he likely stuck around too long, adding a bit to his totals but greatly diminishing his per game numbers. He was the clear alpha on those laker teams and his prime was a bit stronger.

Kareem gets the nod for his longevity and his insane numbers but a knock for the competition compared to Duncan. He also had a great Lakers team but the guy was a horse. I think Duncan is the modern day Kareem.

Hakeem was easily the most skilled big to ever play the game. I think if he was playing today you would see him average a triple double. He brought his team to 2 finals losing only to arguable a top 3 all time team in 86. His prime stats are silly and he repeated with a weak team. He never had the solid teams Duncan had and played in a brutal era. I think his 2 are very impressive and as an individual player he was a better talent than TD.

Again, I see every argument and LOVE TD. No beef with anyone putting him in the top 5-10 all time. He is in my top 10 for sure but those three along with Russell and Chamberlain go ahead. Just my opinion.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by GC1980

So nice to have a debate with someone that has such well thought out and very defensible points on these boards! I can agree with a lot of what you wrote and understand every point.

While I respect your stance on Shaq and Kareem having at least one top flight teammate, I would argue Duncan's success is very much tied with the success of the Spurs and vice versa. He has been the key cog and a major reason for their rings and sustained elite status BUT he also has always had excellent teams and coaching as well. David Robinson, Parker, Ginobili and just amazingly put together role players all helps. I won't take a huge knock on Shaq's place in history because of Kobe's presence. He was a force and a much better defender than people remember, especially in his non fat years.

Shaq was simply the more dominant player and what he did in the playoffs throughout the three peat is simply mind boggling. His size and conditioning issues were always an problem for his sustainability and he likely stuck around too long, adding a bit to his totals but greatly diminishing his per game numbers. He was the clear alpha on those laker teams and his prime was a bit stronger.

Kareem gets the nod for his longevity and his insane numbers but a knock for the competition compared to Duncan. He also had a great Lakers team but the guy was a horse. I think Duncan is the modern day Kareem.

Hakeem was easily the most skilled big to ever play the game. I think if he was playing today you would see him average a triple double. He brought his team to 2 finals losing only to arguable a top 3 all time team in 86. His prime stats are silly and he repeated with a weak team. He never had the solid teams Duncan had and played in a brutal era. I think his 2 are very impressive and as an individual player he was a better talent than TD.

Again, I see every argument and LOVE TD. No beef with anyone putting him in the top 5-10 all time. He is in my top 10 for sure but those three along with Russell and Chamberlain go ahead. Just my opinion.

Boom. Good points. Agree to disagree. For what it's worth I have Hakeem and Jabbar both top ten as well, w shaq just on the outside looking in. I just can't give him a pass on the FT shooting, but he is probably the most dominant player I've ever seen.

[jj2]

Originally Posted by elee712

I think Duncan's championships are more a result of the system. Kobe's was a result of the talent which I think is a better measure of the player. When you talk about the spurs championships...I think most of the credit will be given to Pop.

That's why the Spurs, even with all the success and championships -are not as popular as they should be. In general, casual basketball fans will not turn on a game to watch Duncan, or ginoboli or parker. They want to see Kobe, Lebron, KD because you associate the team with these guys.

The Spurs aren't as popular as they should be simply because they don't play flashy basketball. It's as simple as that. Also, to give the majority of the credit for five championships to Pop is pretty unfair.

It's about time Duncan reclaimed some of his rightfully claimed limelight from Kobe.

Edit: People also need to remember that TD, in the last contract he'll ever sign, accepted over a $10 million paycut so that his team could stay together. The end result, another Championship. Meanwhile Kobe has gone the reverse route.

[mcgahee21nfl]

DUNCAN. . .

[CandyMan23]

Originally Posted by Srt42004n

You look at the past 15 Years Duncan has won with a dif cast or role players, Kobe hasn't won anything with the changing roster.

lol wth are you talking about? he won 3 championships with one team and 2 more with a completely different team other than D-Fish.

[DUCKanay]

This is dead even for me. Duncan has the benefit of having Pop with him his whole career, the Twin Towers to me is still the best frontcourt I've seen in my lifetime. Kobe on the other hand has been through a lot more turmoil (a lot self inflicted), but the fire and passion can't be beat. Kobe is the better individual player, while I'd pick Duncan if I wanted to start a franchise.