The absurdity of ebay's authenticity guarantee

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by Sonnys88

Exactly.

It's kind of amazing that some are upset that eBay is adding in an extra layer of "protection" for the buyer and seller.

eBay wouldn't add this new layer of authentication / protection just because - they are doing it due to the high number of counterfeit slabs / cards being sold, and the high number of returns that the card category has had. It's a big step in the right direction to cut down on fraud.

For me, the issue will come when eBay shifts this cost to its users (which will come soon -eBay has already signaled this will occur) and this ain’t gonna be cheap when you do the cost analysis. And when this happens, this is 100% a cute little end around of eBay shifting the cost of it’s warranty obligation onto its users. This is classic eBay touting something as good for its users, and then fleecing them. Here’s an idea. Why not create something that actually improves demand for your product, not just shifts costs onto your users? eBay benefits from a quasi-monopoly to be able to do this stuff.

So I’m assuming eBay will reduce its FVF when this cost shift occurs because it no longer will have the same warranty costs? I’ll hang up and listen.

[jewcer2k5]

Originally Posted by ReggieBush22

I don't see how returns play into authenticating an item.

Ebay's immensely liberal policy on returns and giving the buyers too much power is the issue.

The fact that Ebay needs to authenticate graded cards is a joke and waste of time and resources.

You can’t imagine how many stories are made up complaining of a card being swapped or a fake slab or whatever nonsense just to return a card that’s dropped in value.

Originally Posted by mfw13

Then it should be optional, for the buyer or seller to choose whether or not they want this service.

I agree with this but it’s not.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Except that it's protection nobody has asked for, is being forced on people against their will, and involves increased risk of card damage due to the increased number of people handling the card.

As an OPTIONAL program that buyers/sellers can utilize when desired, it's a great idea.

As a MANDATORY program, it's a horrible idea.....

Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it.

Buy and sell on other platforms. Problem solved.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by mc1

Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it.

Buy and sell on other platforms. Problem solved.

This I can get behind and is the right answer. The transaction costs for cards as a % of the deal are way out of whack. Why more users haven’t migrated to another platform is a head scratcher to me. Too many people are just “comfortable” with eBay when there are better options.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by mc1

Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it.

Buy and sell on other platforms. Problem solved.

It's not going to affect me personally too much because I rarely sell anything from my collection, and the few "expensive" cards I buy are autos, which are not currently involved in the program.

But the way people are going to get around this is by turning single cards into multi-card lots....the high-value card that the seller is actually trying to sell will be listed as part of a lot with a couple of base cards of the same player.

[msucollector4]

What percentage of eBay's traffic is sports card related do yall think?

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by msucollector4

What percentage of eBay's traffic is sports card related do yall think?

You'd think it'd be a large percentage, but it's really not. A ton of ebay transactions are in electronics (cell phones and accessories, computers and parts, etc), clothing, automotive, and home goods. I dont even see sports cards at all on most lists when I look at lists of top selling categories on ebay.

I mostly just use ebay for collectibles, predominantly cards, so I suppose Im not a "typical" ebay customer in the general sense.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Sonnys88

Exactly.

It's kind of amazing that some are upset that eBay is adding in an extra layer of "protection" for the buyer and seller.

eBay wouldn't add this new layer of authentication / protection just because - they are doing it due to the high number of counterfeit slabs / cards being sold, and the high number of returns that the card category has had. It's a big step in the right direction to cut down on fraud.

I’ve been operating on eBay since the late 90s. Have never had a return as a seller. And outside of a few bad sellers over two decades ago, I’ve only had to return a small handful of cards. Most for damage, and one trimmed. No hassle with any of the returns. The trimmed card was in a BGS slab. Under the new AG, I would have been stuck with a $4k trimmed card. They would have authenticated the slab, and dumped the crap on me with no option for recourse.

So yes, I have a problem where I have to accept something as final sale when I don’t get to see it first.

[jewcer2k5]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

You'd think it'd be a large percentage, but it's really not. A ton of ebay transactions are in electronics (cell phones and accessories, computers and parts, etc), clothing, automotive, and home goods. I dont even see sports cards at all on most lists when I look at lists of top selling categories on ebay.

I mostly just use ebay for collectibles, predominantly cards, so I suppose Im not a "typical" ebay customer in the general sense.

It’s actually larger than you think. At least 8 of the top sellers by volume in the US sell trading cards. Trading cards were talked about as a main growth topic by eBay at their most recent earnings call.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by msucollector4

What percentage of eBay's traffic is sports card related do yall think?

A miniscule percentage.....probably around 1-2%.

And problematical sports cards transactions are probably an even smaller percentage....maybe 1 out of every thousand sports cards transactions.

Like KhalDrogo, I've been on EBay for 20+ years and completed thousands of transactions, and had exactly 1 problematical transaction in all that time.

The reality is, unless your flipping the latest "hot" player, the chances of you having a problem are minimal.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by mfw13

A miniscule percentage.....probably around 1-2%.

And problematical sports cards transactions are probably an even smaller percentage....maybe 1 out of every thousand sports cards transactions.

Like KhalDrogo, I've been on EBay for 20+ years and completed thousands of transactions, and had exactly 1 problematical transaction in all that time.

The reality is, unless your flipping the latest "hot" player, the chances of you having a problem are minimal.

Actually, as Jewcer said, it’s a high volume. In fact, if you look at their earnings release you’ll see that trading cards account for 10% of gross merchandise volume in the US. That’s a staggering number and why eBay is so focused on this program and the cost implications of shifting this cost to its users. Their margin improvements will be material.

[seanbros55]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

I don’t see why a seller would be against this, if item goes through you are in the clear and buyer can’t attempt shenanigans, INAD etc.
That’s a piece of mind for the seller.

The only way I could see this impacting a seller negatively is if they are trying to pass fake cards (like in that 1989 Griffey Tiffany RC thread with fake glossed cards), or if they are not great at accurately describing a card (overgrading or not mentioning obvious flaws).

I have less than zero % faith that these mouth-breathing “authenticators” would be able to identify any of these glossed fake Tiff Griffs as fake based on their inability to and/or corroboration with identifying trimmed cards…

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

Actually, as Jewcer said, it’s a high volume. In fact, if you look at their earnings release you’ll see that trading cards account for 10% of gross merchandise volume in the US. That’s a staggering number and why eBay is so focused on this program and the cost implications of shifting this cost to its users. Their margin improvements will be material.

Perhaps it's dependent how we are defining high percentage....compared to all the listings, even if this is true and 10%, I dont consider that a high percentage, what I was getting at above. It's hard to get data on # of active listings, but from a brief glance it looks like some of those other categories dwarf cards.....maybe a few million card listings..10 million or so? Hard to tell. Apparently there are some 8.5 million listings in mens shirts alone, if those data are accurate, just imagine mens clothes in general....and then imagine clothes in general, men's and women's. This would be just one metric though, number of listings.

Originally Posted by seanbros55

I have less than zero % faith that these mouth-breathing “authenticators” would be able to identify any of these glossed fake Tiff Griffs as fake based on their inability to and/or corroboration with identifying trimmed cards…

They did though. It was posted in that thread CSG caught the fake tiffany and it didnt get sent on to the buyer. It was an example of where the AG program came in handy. I havent seen evidence that seller (who allegedly has been trying to rip off many buyers with these fake griffeys) did get one through, at least based on feedback. Although they were also selling a couple SGC graded ones, so it's possible, although not known with any certainty, that some did get past SGC.

[wood minis]

I don't know if what ebay is doing here is right or wrong, or if it should be more targeted to problem buyers and sellers, but I've cut back on using their platform for both buying and selling.

[WillyBeamen]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I’ve been operating on eBay since the late 90s. Have never had a return as a seller. And outside of a few bad sellers over two decades ago, I’ve only had to return a small handful of cards. Most for damage, and one trimmed. No hassle with any of the returns. The trimmed card was in a BGS slab. Under the new AG, I would have been stuck with a $4k trimmed card. They would have authenticated the slab, and dumped the crap on me with no option for recourse.

So yes, I have a problem where I have to accept something as final sale when I don’t get to see it first.

I recently went through a situation ever so slightly like that.

Mind you I have been on eBay for 15 years, returned maybe 5 or 6 items over those years. I’m not the biggest fan of grading, I never expect a mint card when buying raw (unless stated as mint). I’ve purchased thousands of raw cards with some of them being no better than a 5 or 6 when I received them.

Long story short. I bought a card that stated it was mint in the title and the
Description also stated it was mint. It gets authenticated, I get it in and the card is damaged.

I didn’t know you couldn’t return a card that went through authentication and filed a claim. A day goes by and my claim is denied. I file an appeal, a week goes by and my claim is denied because I broke the seal (sticker) and because of that they don’t know who did the damage to the card (which sucked for me, but I understood).

A little frustrated I file a BBB claim, only to be told the same thing a week later. About to give up, I decided to see if I can find other pictures of the card. Luckily I find the card on instagram weeks before I purchased it showing the same damage I provided in my pictures. I add this to the BBB case, a week goes by and eBay sides with me. Also, I want to add the seller did a good job hiding the damage in his pictures.

Since eBay is the one refunding, eBay decides that an $83.13 refund from a $600 purchase was appropriate. I have no idea how they came up with that number but that’s what they gave me.

Moral of the story is they aren’t authenticating condition (because they would be doing their job for free if they did). Like I said above I never expect a raw card to be in Mint condition unless stated as such, but this now allows damaged cards to be sold as Mint condition cards without any recourse for the seller. Something to consider when purchasing raw cards now.

[BigMac]

what bothers me is that ebay will start making us pay for it.. like we should have a choice (altho more/most people would opt out of it)

[joey_peapod]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

This I can get behind and is the right answer. The transaction costs for cards as a % of the deal are way out of whack. Why more users haven’t migrated to another platform is a head scratcher to me. Too many people are just “comfortable” with eBay when there are better options.

There is no better options for straight up auctions especially with raw cards

[jewcer2k5]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

Perhaps it's dependent how we are defining high percentage....compared to all the listings, even if this is true and 10%, I dont consider that a high percentage, what I was getting at above. It's hard to get data on # of active listings, but from a brief glance it looks like some of those other categories dwarf cards.....maybe a few million card listings..10 million or so? Hard to tell. Apparently there are some 8.5 million listings in mens shirts alone, if those data are accurate, just imagine mens clothes in general....and then imagine clothes in general, men's and women's. This would be just one metric though, number of listings.



They did though. It was posted in that thread CSG caught the fake tiffany and it didnt get sent on to the buyer. It was an example of where the AG program came in handy. I havent seen evidence that seller (who allegedly has been trying to rip off many buyers with these fake griffeys) did get one through, at least based on feedback. Although they were also selling a couple SGC graded ones, so it's possible, although not known with any certainty, that some did get past SGC.

Its not dependent on how you look at it. We have a way to measure it. While it would be nice to measure by $$$'s we can't right now but we can measure by monthly positive feedback aka monthly sales. Here is a link to the top sellers in the US by positive feedback in the past month. (It is updated daily).

https://www.topratedseller.com/united-states/ebay

To go through the top 50 for you.

#'s 4,5,6,7,11,16,32,36,40,41,50 all sell trading cards or related products (#50 is columbiasportscard who sells top loaders and stuff like that). I didnt go through the 2nd half of the list but 20% of the top 50 by volume are in our hobby. Thats a lot.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Like it or not, reality or not, there is a perceived problem of unauthentic and improperly listed items on ebay. There is a real fear in the consumers. Ebay is attempting to alleviate those fears for their customers and offer a product that guarantees the authenticity of the items sold on their platform. You may not have those fears, and that's fine. But they have chosen to conduct their business this way to deal with the problem they see. Consumers ALWAYS have a choice. Nothing is forced on you. If you don't like the service ebay offers, go somewhere else. That's how business works. A business chooses to conduct their business the way they like. If consumers like it, they use that service. If they don't, they go somewhere else. Very simple.

[Sonnys88]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

Perhaps it's dependent how we are defining high percentage....compared to all the listings, even if this is true and 10%, I dont consider that a high percentage, what I was getting at above. It's hard to get data on # of active listings, but from a brief glance it looks like some of those other categories dwarf cards.....maybe a few million card listings..10 million or so? Hard to tell. Apparently there are some 8.5 million listings in mens shirts alone, if those data are accurate, just imagine mens clothes in general....and then imagine clothes in general, men's and women's. This would be just one metric though, number of listings.



They did though. It was posted in that thread CSG caught the fake tiffany and it didnt get sent on to the buyer. It was an example of where the AG program came in handy. I havent seen evidence that seller (who allegedly has been trying to rip off many buyers with these fake griffeys) did get one through, at least based on feedback. Although they were also selling a couple SGC graded ones, so it's possible, although not known with any certainty, that some did get past SGC.

There are on average over 50,000,000 sportscard & card accessories listings on eBay at any given time. Just between COMC and Burbank's listings, there are over 10,000,000 card listings.

We don't know the exact number of returns and scam listings happening, but its safe to assume that the number was high enough for eBay to make these moves.

I agree that the program should be optional, but if you opt out, then you assume any and all risks involved. This program is not geared toward experienced buyers and sellers - its for those who lack the capability to determine a fake slab or fake or altered card - which in reality is the majority of people. How many "does this case / card look okay" posts do we see on the forums, and that's just a minute pool of the card community.

[hammertime]

I love that some people are apparently naive enough to sincerely believe this is an attempt by eBay to fix a problem that is plaguing their customers, and not merely an attempt to create a new revenue stream for themselves. Corporations ALWAYS try to spin these things and make it seem like they're doing you a favor...I guess I didn't realize people actually fall for it.

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by hammertime

I love that some people are apparently naive enough to sincerely believe this is an attempt by eBay to fix a problem that is plaguing their customers, and not merely an attempt to create a new revenue stream for themselves. Corporations ALWAYS try to spin these things and make it seem like they're doing you a favor...I guess I didn't realize people actually fall for it.

Many BO morons fell for eBay kicking PWCC off of their platform due to “shill bidding”. Many members promised to go to their graves kicking and screaming that shilling was the only reason.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeremyNick]

Originally Posted by mfw13

A miniscule percentage.....probably around 1-2%.

And problematical sports cards transactions are probably an even smaller percentage....maybe 1 out of every thousand sports cards transactions.

Like KhalDrogo, I've been on EBay for 20+ years and completed thousands of transactions, and had exactly 1 problematical transaction in all that time.

The reality is, unless your flipping the latest "hot" player, the chances of you having a problem are minimal.

If it were a minuscule amount and not problematic, this program would exist. As stated it’s a moderate amount with a high expected growth potential. It is likely also very problematic.

Two birds with one stone. Act like they are doing something positive while shifting the accountability off them and lessening their liability.

[notoriousrmb]

If eBay wants this program to work, they need to show the cards that were found to be fake.

Quit showing off your stupid holders no one cares about and show what your program is actually weeding out, along with the sellers trying to move these fake cards.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Many BO morons fell for eBay kicking PWCC off of their platform due to “shill bidding”. Many members promised to go to their graves kicking and screaming that shilling was the only reason.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who cares why they got kicked off. They were and are scum of the earth.