2019 Hall of Fame Discussion

[Soxfanguy]

Originally Posted by green4407

I'm not quite sure how McGriff isn't already in the HOF.

Similar Batters

Willie McCovey (887.2) *
Willie Stargell (875.5) *
Paul Konerko (870.1)
Jeff Bagwell (865.9) *
David Ortiz (865.6)
Frank Thomas (861.2) *
Carlos Delgado (857.5)
Jason Giambi (855.4)
Billy Williams (851.6) *
Gary Sheffield (850.7)

Paul Konerko should be in the hall once he is eligible

[discostu]

Originally Posted by chezball

It already lacks credibility, more so if they let those two ped users in.

Originally Posted by Topcat79

Agree completely.

Originally Posted by corndog

This^^^

All. Day. Long.

Do any of you actually believe the there aren't at least a dozen HOF members who used PEDs at least once?

Not taking about amphetamines, but actual steroids.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by discostu

Do any of you actually believe the there aren't at least a dozen HOF members who used PEDs at least once?

Not taking about amphetamines, but actual steroids.

No, not even close. Ivan Rodriguez, who was on a leaked list of those who failed 2003 tests, is the only one that there is even a hint of evidence against. Bonds is an admitted user. There is a lot of evidence against Clemens including testimony of former players. You can't let in known cheaters because you think you may have elected a guy who used, but have no evidence of him using.

[ThoseBackPages]

many cheaters already in

[AnthonyCorona]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Bonds
Clemens
Halladay

Those would be the only three on my ballot.

Mariano doesn't get my vote because I believe that pitchers should have a minimum of 2000 IP to be eligible (i.e. the equivalent of ten full seasons as a starter).

Edgar doesn't get my vote because I believe that defense is an important part of the game and that anybody who had more than 50% of his PA as a DH should not be in the HOF.

that’s a good one!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KCfan1985]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Edgar doesn't get my vote because I believe that defense is an important part of the game and that anybody who had more than 50% of his PA as a DH should not be in the HOF.

What if a guy played a fair share of defense, but really sucked at it? Does sucking at defense make a player more worthy than a guy who just didn't play much defense at all?

[speedyjg13]

Originally Posted by KCfan1985

What if a guy played a fair share of defense, but really sucked at it? Does sucking at defense make a player more worthy than a guy who just didn't play much defense at all?

No. It makes the sorry defender just as bad as the one who couldn't defend at all or just didnt and chose the DH... like Ortiz, Edgar, Ohtani

[free2131]

Scott Rolen is the Ron Santo of our generation. There is no way he shouldn't be a HOFer.

[free2131]

Players who should be in, and my10 players for this ballot:

Lance Berkman
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Roy Halladay
Todd Helton
Andruw Jones
Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Roy Oswalt
Andy Pettitte
Manny Ramirez
Mariano Rivera
Scott Rolen
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
Sammy Sosa
Omar Vizquel
Billy Wagner
Larry Walker
Michael Young

[Stech36]

Originally Posted by discostu

Do any of you actually believe the there aren't at least a dozen HOF members who used PEDs at least once?

Not taking about amphetamines, but actual steroids.

I don’t want to say that any of these guys used steroids, because we just don’t know, but I wouldn’t be shocked if any player that played from the late 80’s to present used them at some point

Certainly guys like Jeff Bagwell, Roberto Alomar, and Mike Piazza aren’t above suspicion.

[Wolves4Life]

I don't get the Walker love.
If he stayed in Montreal he wouldn't even be close to a HOF'er. People joke about Coors but it helped Walker A LOT.

Also Sosa will get to stay on the ballot and i'm happy about that. It's sad that Manny has more votes than Sosa and Manny failed multiple MLB issued tests.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by Shadowsonic2004

Andruw Jones

I'll settle for this one.

He’ll get in one day. But it will likely be decades from now.

Originally Posted by discostu

As embarrassing as the Baines inclusion, Mariano at 100% would be appalling.

It won’t happen, but it would be.

Originally Posted by VeedonFleece

I tend to share your disdain for relievers in general, especially the 7th-setup-closer format that bullpens have been mostly used this century. Hopefully the Andrew Miller/Josh Hader-type RP usage will become more commonplace.

That said, I've always been a Wagner fan. I don't think it's fair to compare him to Oswalt. Of course Oswalt was more valuable but, whether we like them or not, relievers should be compared only against each other. Now, I was against Hoffman getting in, so I'm certainly not arguing that Wagner belongs, but the disparity in voting between those two baffles me. Jay Jaffe's JAWS metric has them rated as merely the 20th & 21st best RP of all time, with Wagner edging it slightly, which essentially says they were equally as Hall-worthy (or not,) especially since their careers coincided. He's the all-time leader in K-rate, whichever way you measure it, and has the 2nd best WHIP (Mariano 3rd) of all time too - only ill-fated deadball era Addie Joss is lower. He's certainly not one of the best ten candidates but, if I had a vote, I might consider using a spot simply to help keep him on the ballot.

Sure, Wagner was great. And yes, Hoffman and Wagner are very similar. But let’s think about this for a moment. Wagner didn’t even pitch 1,000 innings. While I get that it might not be fair to compare him to Oswalt, I think it perfectly illustrates how weird it is that a guy like Wagner gets a serious debate likely for a decade but Oswalt will be dropped from the ballot in two seconds. Again, I don’t profess Oswalt should be a HOFer or that he should remain on the ballot. But Oswalt finished in the top 6 of Cy Young voting 6 times! Wagner never even led the league in saves once (his supposed reason for being a serious candidate). Again, this is a down ballot issue and will get zero mention by anyone because no one is advocating Oswalt and Wagner’s vote totals aren’t yet interesting.

Originally Posted by rats60

No, not even close. Ivan Rodriguez, who was on a leaked list of those who failed 2003 tests, is the only one that there is even a hint of evidence against. Bonds is an admitted user. There is a lot of evidence against Clemens including testimony of former players. You can't let in known cheaters because you think you may have elected a guy who used, but have no evidence of him using.

I agree. Though the leaked list was not taken seriously. ARod, Sosa, and Ortiz are the only confirmed names. Pudge wasn’t even mentioned in the Mitchell Report.

Better individuals to point to in the Hall are LaRussa and Selig. Two of the biggest enablers who turned a blind eye to the issue for too long. Somehow the two of these guys get celebrated while Buck Weaver is still banned.

Originally Posted by free2131

Scott Rolen is the Ron Santo of our generation. There is no way he shouldn't be a HOFer.

He’ll get in one day. Sadly, it may be like Santo - posthumously.

[mrmopar]

HA, If that were true, the HOF would be much much more inclusive. They are buried now, but my boxes of "soft sleeved star cards" are probably going to be pretty entertaining to sort through one day when I finally dig them up. Probably have not seen or added to them since the early 2000s. Lots of flops in there that once had potential and yet, I know I have a small stack of Jeter UD rookies that are not sleeved, also buried somewhere. I didn't sleeve them because there were too many. At the time, I was more selective so as not to run out.

Originally Posted by REGGIE206

I don’t even remember putting their cards in penny sleeves.

[KCfan1985]

Originally Posted by speedyjg13

No. It makes the sorry defender just as bad as the one who couldn't defend at all or just didnt and chose the DH... like Ortiz, Edgar, Ohtani

So,great hitters who are bad defensively shouldn't be HOFers?

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by Wolves4Life

I don't get the Walker love.
If he stayed in Montreal he wouldn't even be close to a HOF'er. People joke about Coors but it helped Walker A LOT.

Also Sosa will get to stay on the ballot and i'm happy about that. It's sad that Manny has more votes than Sosa and Manny failed multiple MLB issued tests.

Walker had an .890 OPS in Montreal. His career road OPS was .865. I’m not saying there isn’t a lot more to being a HOFer, but the average HOFer has an OPS of .861. His career was definitely helped by Coors but his career OPS+ ended up 141 which accounts for park effects and eras. That’s 11th all time among RFs. Among RFs he’s in the top 25 all-time in Runs, Hits, RBIs, Avg, 2Bs, etc. Then there’s the defense...a killer arm and 8th all-time among RF in Total Zone Runs.

I still consider him borderline, but there’s why Walker gets love.

[Chris Lyle]

Bonds, Manny, The Rocket, Edgar and Halladay should get in.

[Wolves4Life]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Walker had an .890 OPS in Montreal. His career road OPS was .865. I’m not saying there isn’t a lot more to being a HOFer, but the average HOFer has an OPS of .861. His career was definitely helped by Coors but his career OPS+ ended up 141 which accounts for park effects and eras. That’s 11th all time among RFs. Among RFs he’s in the top 25 all-time in Runs, Hits, RBIs, Avg, 2Bs, etc. Then there’s the defense...a killer arm and 8th all-time among RF in Total Zone Runs.

I still consider him borderline, but there’s why Walker gets love.

Appreciate the response.

[Wolves4Life]

Originally Posted by Chris Lyle

Bonds, Manny, The Rocket, Edgar and Halladay should get in.

And Sosa.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by Wolves4Life

Appreciate the response.

You’re welcome.

[Chris Lyle]

Originally Posted by Wolves4Life

And Sosa.

Not in my opinion.

[discostu]

Originally Posted by discostu

Do any of you actually believe the there aren't at least a dozen HOF members who used PEDs at least once?

Not taking about amphetamines, but actual steroids.

Originally Posted by Stech36

I don’t want to say that any of these guys used steroids, because we just don’t know, but I wouldn’t be shocked if any player that played from the late 80’s to present used them at some point

Certainly guys like Jeff Bagwell, Roberto Alomar, and Mike Piazza aren’t above suspicion.

This is the disconnect.

It did not begin in the late 80s, although it's nice and tidy to believe that. Baseball wants you to believe that.

Selig and others want you to believe that the Mitchell Report was some sort of complete list. Or that it did anything other than quell interference from Congress.

Certain Hall of Famers like to say how tempted they might have been if steroids were prevalent in their era...like the 70s. Meanwhile, they know full well that steroids were already in MLB clubhouses in the 70s and late 60s.

It's incredibly naive to think that the steroid era had a timeline from the late 80s until testing in 2000s. Equally naive perhaps to assume that current players aren't ahead of modern testing just as many of their predecessors were over the last couple decades.

Baseball greatness should be judged by eras, nothing more. How did you measure to your peers, nothing more.

Every player from every year has the same advantages and disadvantages as their peers.

Every player in the Hall of Fame who played during the 60s until today has stats that were skewed by steroids...personal usage or usage by teammates/opponents.

Enough of the charade and piety. The sooner we get over the arrogance of policing the past with newfound caring about steroids, the better.

[Peties Army]

Originally Posted by rats60

No, not even close. Ivan Rodriguez, who was on a leaked list of those who failed 2003 tests, is the only one that there is even a hint of evidence against. Bonds is an admitted user. There is a lot of evidence against Clemens including testimony of former players. You can't let in known cheaters because you think you may have elected a guy who used, but have no evidence of him using.

This is a pretty naive thought process.

Pretty much accepted that a large portion of players did steroids, and we think all the ones who played in that era and are HOF worthy didn’t do PEDs when everyone else did? Come on.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by KCfan1985

What if a guy played a fair share of defense, but really sucked at it? Does sucking at defense make a player more worthy than a guy who just didn't play much defense at all?

Of course not. My point is that if you suck so bad on defense that your team isn't even willing to let you play in the field, that should count as a major negative when evaluating a player's overall candidacy.

The best players used to be called five tool players (hitting for average, hitting for power, throwing, fielding, and base-running). When you are/were significantly below average at three of those tools (as Edgar Martinez was), you do not belong in the HOF.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by KCfan1985

So,great hitters who are bad defensively shouldn't be HOFers?

Nobody's saying that....just that if you were so bad defensively that your team forced you to be a DH, the bar for your hitting should be that much higher.

Edgar Martinez was a great hitter for average, and an above average (but not great) hitter for power. That's not enough, IMHO, to overcome his defensive deficiencies.

And for players who were primarily DH's, the fact that they therefore had fewer injuries, and were better rested when hitting, also has to be factored in. Playing the field for nine innings every days does take it's physical and mental toll, something which DH's don't have to deal with.

[Topcat79]

So it’s fair to keep a guy like Dale Murphy our of the Hall but let’s let in every athlete that took a shortcut.
And about steroids being around since the 60s...sure I’ll buy that, but you can’t tell me that what Bonds, Mcguire, Canseco, Sosa, and Clemens were taking was the same stuff available back then. They took it way way too far and their careers are tainted.