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Old 03-06-2024, 11:56 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta View Post
Why am I assigned the impossible task of trying to convince everyone Lebron is GOAT?

I concede because it is not feasible.

I know the pro Bron arguments, and it is simply an exercise in futility.
^ this illustrates the very problem; you have failed to state *my* point in the strongest possible terms.

What I requested is for Bron-busters like you to state the case as strongly as you can, then respond to it.

True, it is not possible to steelman certain things. But given that there are so many people out there who *are* convinced Bron is the GOAT, it's not some beyond-the-pale position.

Go ahead. State the strongest case for Bron that you can, as the most credible defender of Bron would state it. Try it out, make yourself credible for once.
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Old 03-06-2024, 11:58 AM   #327
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It's possibly due to the fact that he's the greatest all-around basketball player to ever set foot on the court.
Best natural talent set, arguably so.

That doesn't equate to greatness.
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Old 03-06-2024, 11:58 AM   #328
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The Cavs picked three draft picks higher than the spurs in 1999 before the spurs picked ginobili.

The Cavs picked two draft picks higher than the spurs in 2001 before the spurs picked Tony Parker.

So are Lebron fans blaming the Cavs on this one for not drafting well even before anyone knew Lebron would arrive on the team?

Spurs picked those players to complement Duncan and were rewarded as Duncan turned these lower draft picks into hall of famers.

Who did LeGM pick in the draft to help his chances to win a ring?
The Cavs had the number one pick in the 2011 draft before the warriors picked Klay Thompson at number 11.

The Cavs had two first round picks in 2012 before the warriors picked Draymond Green in the second round at 35.

So are Lebron fans blaming the Cavs on this one for not drafting well even before anyone knew Lebron would arrive on the team the second time?

Warriors picked those players to complement Curry and were rewarded as Curry turned these lower draft picks into hall of famers.

Who did LeGM pick in the draft to help his chances to win a ring?
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:02 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by drobfan8 View Post
Ah yes, the good old excuses for LeBron are back.

LeBron played with more top level talent than any of the greats. And still managed to not win as much as them. Ba ha.

You guys are hilarious. It must be exhausting having to come up with this crap all the time. Surely you don't actually believe it?

I mean, does LeBron win more titles with Tony Parker and Manu?

I seriously doubt it.

Switch squads in '07. Does Duncan win with the squad Bron was working with?
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:03 PM   #330
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I've never understood why lebron guys resort to taking personal shots at people simply because they don't like lebron. Like they're basically useless to society because they don't worship him. I've never seen anyone else's fans resort to that but it happens all the time with lebron fans.
You’re joking right? This was a thread to just celebrate a milestone we won’t ever see again. You all keep bringing it up. And making comments across all forums of “nuthuggers” etc. they certainly do not instigate anything
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:04 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta View Post
The Cavs had the number one pick in the 2011 draft before the warriors picked Klay Thompson at number 11.

The Cavs had two first round picks in 2012 before the warriors picked Draymond Green in the second round at 35.

So are Lebron fans blaming the Cavs on this one for not drafting well even before anyone knew Lebron would arrive on the team the second time?

Warriors picked those players to complement Curry and were rewarded as Curry turned these lower draft picks into hall of famers.

Who did LeGM pick in the draft to help his chances to win a ring?

Good thing no one claimed he’s a great GM. They claimed he’s a great player. But at least we can agree they never put a worthy team around him
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:07 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta View Post
The Cavs had the number one pick in the 2011 draft before the warriors picked Klay Thompson at number 11.

The Cavs had two first round picks in 2012 before the warriors picked Draymond Green in the second round at 35.

So are Lebron fans blaming the Cavs on this one for not drafting well even before anyone knew Lebron would arrive on the team the second time?

Warriors picked those players to complement Curry and were rewarded as Curry turned these lower draft picks into hall of famers.

Who did LeGM pick in the draft to help his chances to win a ring?
The Cavs picked Kyrie, I don't know what role Bron had in any of that. One can fault LeGM for bad front-office decision making, yes. At the same time, I haven't heard anyone (except the likes of you) faulting him for Cavs FO in his first stint there. Maybe after that he was less willing to let a team FO do its thing without his control. Just a guess.

Curry hasn't been so successful at turning the Warriors more recent draft picks into stars.

What side of the case do you take on the Warriors KD-superteam chips, while being consistent with your LeBall-busting?
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:08 PM   #333
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^ this illustrates the very problem; you have failed to state *my* point in the strongest possible terms.

What I requested is for Bron-busters like you to state the case as strongly as you can, then respond to it.

True, it is not possible to steelman certain things. But given that there are so many people out there who *are* convinced Bron is the GOAT, it's not some beyond-the-pale position.

Go ahead. State the strongest case for Bron that you can, as the most credible defender of Bron would state it. Try it out, make yourself credible for once.
I'm gonna keep tapping this sign
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:12 PM   #334
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ligma
learned a new word today
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:13 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by BlueXtreme View Post
Good thing no one claimed he’s a great GM. They claimed he’s a great player. But at least we can agree they never put a worthy team around him
Lebron never had the ability to make his teammates better like other contemporary superstars. He had every chance, every opportunity to get the right personnel, yet he did not have the skills to be a better teammate for them.

That’s one of his biggest faults.

Even a snake like Durant scorned Lebron DESPITE being fresh off a Cavs championship win because he knew Lebron wouldn’t make him a better player, so Durant wisely chose the warriors and made the correct choice.
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:15 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by drobfan8 View Post
Ah yes, the good old excuses for LeBron are back.

LeBron played with more top level talent than any of the greats. And still managed to not win as much as them. Ba ha.

You guys are hilarious. It must be exhausting having to come up with this crap all the time. Surely you don't actually believe it?

I mean, does LeBron win more titles with Tony Parker and Manu?

I seriously doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Braswell10 View Post
Nobody on planet earth besides you is taking TD over Lebron. This stuff is embarrassing at this point.
I'ma tap the sign and ask for a full J.S. Mill-approved steelmanning for (and against) taking TD over LeBron

I'm wondering if I'm asking too much. Doesn't anyone here wanna practice dialectic to the highest standards?
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:18 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by GOATcards View Post
The Cavs picked Kyrie, I don't know what role Bron had in any of that. One can fault LeGM for bad front-office decision making, yes. At the same time, I haven't heard anyone (except the likes of you) faulting him for Cavs FO in his first stint there. Maybe after that he was less willing to let a team FO do its thing without his control. Just a guess.

Curry hasn't been so successful at turning the Warriors more recent draft picks into stars.

What side of the case do you take on the Warriors KD-superteam chips, while being consistent with your LeBall-busting?
Who did LeGM ever pick with the Cavs in the draft to help his chances to win a ring?

Who has Lebron ever improved to become a HOF caliber player?

The argument is Lebron has always been a virus to his teammates and organization, despite has supreme individual accolades.

Lebron’s teammates who were NBA caliber players turned bad because being with Lebron made them worse.

Thats why he was always an “underdog” despite always being the most talented player on the court, by far.

Last edited by hermanotarjeta; 03-06-2024 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:22 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta View Post
Lebron never had the ability to make his teammates better like other contemporary superstars. He had every chance, every opportunity to get the right personnel, yet he did not have the skills to be a better teammate for them.

That’s one of his biggest faults.

Even a snake like Durant scorned Lebron DESPITE being fresh off a Cavs championship win because he knew Lebron wouldn’t make him a better player, so Durant wisely chose the warriors and made the correct choice.
You're not interested in my/Mill's challenge, are you. (It's also Daniel Dennett's, Bryan Caplan's, and any supreme dialectician's challenge.)

I can think of one poster who probably has the temperament and basketball-historical knowledge to take it up, but I haven't seen him around here for months now. Maybe too busy moderating at RealGM
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:24 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by GOATcards View Post
You're not interested in my/Mill's challenge, are you. (It's also Daniel Dennett's, Bryan Caplan's, and any supreme dialectician's challenge.)

I can think of one poster who probably has the temperament and basketball-historical knowledge to take it up, but I haven't seen him around here for months now. Maybe too busy moderating at RealGM
It is an impossible task.
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:24 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta View Post
Who did LeGM ever pick with the Cavs in the draft to help his chances to win a ring?

Who has Lebron ever improved to become a HOF caliber player?

The argument is Lebron has always been a virus to his teammates and organization, despite has supreme individual accolades.

Lebron’s teammates who were NBA caliber players turned bad because being with Lebron made them worse.

Thats why he was always an “underdog”.
tapping sign again:

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Originally Posted by GOATcards View Post
^ this illustrates the very problem; you have failed to state *my* point in the strongest possible terms.

What I requested is for Bron-busters like you to state the case as strongly as you can, then respond to it.

True, it is not possible to steelman certain things. But given that there are so many people out there who *are* convinced Bron is the GOAT, it's not some beyond-the-pale position.

Go ahead. State the strongest case for Bron that you can, as the most credible defender of Bron would state it. Try it out, make yourself credible for once.
I don't even want to argue with you further until you show some willingness to be objective
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:27 PM   #341
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It is an impossible task.
it's not an impossible task to play devils advocate (as you would call it), to place oneself in the shoes of a Clayton Crowley or the pro-Bron guy in the 'Trial of the GOAT' video, state their case as they would state it, and then to refute it (making the refutation all that more credible/strong).

You can't do it, can you
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:32 PM   #342
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I guess it's not hard to call out dogmatic ideologues dead-tor-rights. They run hard and fast from challenges to steelman the opposing view. I've seen this routine before numerous times. (Try getting fans of Rand who constantly bash Kant when his name is brought up - "most evil man in history" - to steelman the opposing case. It's never gonna happen apparently. I can steelman Rand's ideas about as well as anyone not named Peikoff, and still I can't stand her anti-steelmanning mentality when it comes to Kant, Hegel, Mill, and many others. I've asked Randian Kant-bashers to imagine whether their characterizations would pass muster among Kant scholars, and the excuses they come up with to avoid answering the question are patently pathetic)

Last edited by GOATcards; 03-06-2024 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:34 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by GOATcards View Post
it's not an impossible task to play devils advocate (as you would call it), to place oneself in the shoes of a Clayton Crowley or the pro-Bron guy in the 'Trial of the GOAT' video, state their case as they would state it, and then to refute it (making the refutation all that more credible/strong).

You can't do it, can you
Are you referring to this one?

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Old 03-06-2024, 12:51 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta View Post
Who did LeGM ever pick with the Cavs in the draft to help his chances to win a ring?

Who has Lebron ever improved to become a HOF caliber player?

The argument is Lebron has always been a virus to his teammates and organization, despite has supreme individual accolades.

Lebron’s teammates who were NBA caliber players turned bad because being with Lebron made them worse.

Thats why he was always an “underdog” despite always being the most talented player on the court, by far.
Lol you’re so in your head do you hear yourself? He’s a virus who didn’t make his teammates better… he kept multiple players in the league longer than they should have been. Hence why when he left and was no longer creating cupcake opportunities for them they were no longer in the league. Get a clue.
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:53 PM   #345
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Are you referring to this one?

yep

I think I just might have found a way to stop the monomaniacal weirdo in his tracks. Certainly not by calling him a monomaniacal weirdo. But apparently by just tapping the steelmanning sign.

I think I have a working hypothesis generally speaking: few people outside of trained philosophers/scientists/lawyers are good at steelmanning. This is especially evident in the deplorable state of political "conversations" nowadays.

Those who avidly call for steelmanning are few and far between, even though it should be a universal norm appealed to all the time, as a part of the common lexicon. (The same for "principle of charity," "Ideological Turing Test," "Rapoport/Dennett Rules," "Mill's principle of debate," and "dialectic.")

It really isn't too much to ask that people adhere avidly, non-lazily, to this principle. Opinions are easy to hold; knowing one's opinion withstands the closest scrutiny is an achievement. If one doesn't know this about one's opinion, perhaps one should suspend judgment and abandon the opinion instead, or hold it with much hesitation and humility.
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Old 03-06-2024, 12:57 PM   #346
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Lol you’re so in your head do you hear yourself? He’s a virus who didn’t make his teammates better… he kept multiple players in the league longer than they should have been. Hence why when he left and was no longer creating cupcake opportunities for them they were no longer in the league. Get a clue.
He could have made his teammates serviceable players like his contemporaries.

He made them worse.
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Old 03-06-2024, 01:02 PM   #347
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I don't know what LeBall-busting weirdos think about this, but in the context of GOAT debates if you are "drafting" a team with winning in mind, I don't know how Bron doesn't go way up high in that draft. I don't see the case for picking him over an MJ, though. If I wanna expend the energy I'll steelman the case for/against picking MJ #1, although the cases have kinda been made exhaustively before in various venues.

I think (provisionally, tentatively) I draft in the order appearing in my .sig. Maybe I'll have to go spend the time at the RealGM Player Comparison board to find out why Bron is #1 and Magic all the way at #10 despite Magic being "awarded" 5 FMVPs in this video which I'm about halfway through (up through '02):



MJ not the real '96 Finals MVP?
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Old 03-06-2024, 01:03 PM   #348
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He could have made his teammates serviceable players like his contemporaries.

He made them worse.
hopefully the others here will tap the steelmanning sign before any further debate ensues. Otherwise it's a waste of time isn't it?
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Old 03-06-2024, 01:06 PM   #349
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He could have made his teammates serviceable players like his contemporaries.

He made them worse.
He made them worse.. hence why they were no longer in the league without him? Very logical.
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Old 03-06-2024, 01:51 PM   #350
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He made them worse.. hence why they were no longer in the league without him? Very logical.
He couldn’t help them to improve their game, like his comtemporary superstars Curry and Duncan could.
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