Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?

[Longshot18]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

No one plays defense today! (just saw 6celtics33 beat me to it)

did you even watch 80s to early 90s hoops? Talk about no defense...

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by daxwills

You’re contradicting yourself. No one will be able to come along and dominate better than the other players because the level of play across the league will increase. If that is accurate, they’ll never be viewed as better players if they can’t dominate. Can’t be both.

Not really. It’s all relative to the era. Like AD in the 60s would be record setting unstoppable. Now he’s just the most dominant center in today’s game.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

so you're saying that outside of Lebron, the NBA skill is BETTER?

My hope is that Pooh Richardson and Jon Koncak’s kids will have kids together and form a futuristic superstar. And then I can buy all their prizms.

[Longshot18]

Originally Posted by daxwills

Assuming that statement is even remotely accurate in sports, why do so many records stand the test of time and aren’t being broken by these “superior athletes”?

Lots has to do with how players are managed now and rules.

"back in the day" many players averaged 40 MPG. Today if you do that, you would be split roasted and fired because you are wearing out your team. In the 70s, the pace of play was astoundingly fast which led to more bad shots and more rebounds. So, for example, many records surrounding overall rebounds or rebounds per game will be tough to approach. The modern day 3 pointer has changed things like how many FTs are attempted, etc.

So often records last or are broken not because players of yester year were better or todays athlete is better, but have everything to do with the style of play and rules of an era

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by Longshot18

Lots has to do with how players are managed now and rules.

"back in the day" many players averaged 40 MPG. Today if you do that, you would be split roasted and fired because you are wearing out your team. In the 70s, the pace of play was astoundingly fast which led to more bad shots and more rebounds. So, for example, many records surrounding overall rebounds or rebounds per game will be tough to approach. The modern day 3 pointer has changed things like how many FTs are attempted, etc.

So often records last or are broken not because players of yester year were better or todays athlete is better, but have everything to do with the style of play and rules of an era

I agree

Would you agree that in terms of Lebron and Jordan that Lebron averaging 1 more rebound per game in an era where there are so many 3s and less true back to the basket centers that long rebounds and smaller lineups allow for perimeter players to get more rebounds. Westbrook and Harden average a ton for example.

I just wonder if this lense of explaining away why all other eras were able to do what they do is applied to the current era as well.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by pgisback

The fact you don’t believe the overall skill level of the nba won’t increase over time is not surprising. Considering all your ridiculous statements and all. Apparently basketball stopped progressing after the 90s, lol.

Except I'm on the record multiple times saying that the overall game and skill level is better currently.

But by your logic, the guys in a measly 20 years time will be so good that even your boy LeBron's skills and athleticism would not transfer to the future. Because of evolution.

You get so upset about your boy now, imagine how life is gonna be for you in 20 years when the talk is that LeBron just played weak opposition (well, that part is mostly true in the East).

And please stop banging on that I'm some MJ superfan, D. Rob and TD are my guys. I just haven't seen LeBron be better than MJ yet.

[Longshot18]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

I agree

Would you agree that in terms of Lebron and Jordan that Lebron averaging 1 more rebound per game in an era where there are so many 3s and less true back to the basket centers that long rebounds and smaller lineups allow for perimeter players to get more rebounds. Westbrook and Harden average a ton for example.

I just wonder if this lense of explaining away why all other eras were able to do what they do is applied to the current era as well.

I guess part of my other post that you agreed on (ie records often are not broken or are broken as a result of things other than the simple explanation), applies here. I don't think it's that simple.

First, Lebron averages about 2 more. 2nd- I'd want to know what the pace of play is in each era. Pace of play means more shots, means more rebounds. 3rd- LeBron spent more of his time defending SF/PFs, Jordan SG/SFs. So Lebron likely is closer to the net to get more rebounds.

Personally I'm not trying to explain away anything. I just think there are so many dynamics in play that its impossible for anyone to say definitively who is the best ever. I think you could make valid arguments and valid negatives for about a dozen guys.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Lebron wins tonight he extends his already record of sweeps in 7 game series according to ESPN. Being a team game and all (what I keep hearing)

Seems like he’s been on some good teams to me

Either that or his conference is terrible

18-27 against the West!! Yikes. Not sweeping them.

I still enjoy the Spurs easiest of wins against LeBron. Both of them
Just a shame Ray Allen ruined that one year for us.

[Nyfancam01]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

I still enjoy the Spurs easiest of wins against LeBron. Both of them
Just a shame Ray Allen ruined that one year for us.

Nope. Lebron RUINED your spurs in that game 7. Plus if not for Lebron James that Heat team wouldn't have even been in the finals at all. Go back and watch GAME 7. You tell me who ruined it

[Pathora]

Originally Posted by Nyfancam01

Nope. Lebron RUINED your spurs in that game 7. Plus if not for Lebron James that Heat team wouldn't have even been in the finals at all. Go back and watch GAME 7. You tell me who ruined it

Ray Allen saved LeBron in Game 6 is his point.

[realreodeal]

I rate LeBron 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510

[Longshot18]

Originally Posted by Nyfancam01

Nope. Lebron RUINED your spurs in that game 7. Plus if not for Lebron James that Heat team wouldn't have even been in the finals at all. Go back and watch GAME 7. You tell me who ruined it

Very rarely is a win loss in a game, let alone a series clearly defined by 1 specific thing or player. People like to pull out isolated stats , games, or plays as "proof" they are right.

The reality is several things lead to the Heat beating the Spurs that year.
* Ray Allen misses that 3, its over
* If Manu hits FTs its over
* If Pop has Duncan in late and can get a rebound it's over. nobody is as big of a fan of Pop as me, but he played every bit the role of "ruining" that potential title as anything with his late game choices.
* And yea, you are right, LeBron was a beast in game 7

There are probably even more than those 4 things that contributed to the Heat winning.

In the end, this is why I think its impossible to name any single hoops player as the GOAT. There is just too many variables. But people keep trying to break it down to 1 or 2 things as "proof" they are right. Whats really laughable is people point to 6 titles very often as proof Jordan was the best, and that's about 1/2 as much as Bill Russell....so even that stat on an island as so many people like to do, has significant flaws.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by Longshot18

I guess part of my other post that you agreed on (ie records often are not broken or are broken as a result of things other than the simple explanation), applies here. I don't think it's that simple.

First, Lebron averages about 2 more. 2nd- I'd want to know what the pace of play is in each era. Pace of play means more shots, means more rebounds. 3rd- LeBron spent more of his time defending SF/PFs, Jordan SG/SFs. So Lebron likely is closer to the net to get more rebounds.

Personally I'm not trying to explain away anything. I just think there are so many dynamics in play that its impossible for anyone to say definitively who is the best ever. I think you could make valid arguments and valid negatives for about a dozen guys.

Lebron has a career average of 7.4 rebounds
Jordan has a career average of 6.2 rebounds

7.4-6.2=1.2 so no it’s not about 2

It’s about 1

[Longshot18]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Lebron has a career average of 7.4 rebounds
Jordan has a career average of 6.2 rebounds

7.4-6.2=1.2 so no it’s not about 2

It’s about 1

you are correct. I was looking at 17-18 numbers.

I'm still not certain what isolating rebounding stats means though.

[ThoseBackPages]

*I'M* right!

*YOU'RE* wrong!

welcome to the internet errybody!

[6celtics33]

And Longshot I don’t mean to single you out but a lot of times people like to pick on the past and say well player x did this because of this as though they wouldn’t be as good today.

We have Westbrook averaging a triple double 2 years in a row, Lebron putting up great stats in Year 15, Harden almost averaging a triple double.

Maybe today’s game has some weird advantage to it where numbers are inflated too.

Jordan scored 45/87 team points in his last finals game as a Bull. His highest teammate had 15. I wonder what he’d look like in today’s video game numbers nba.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by Longshot18

you are correct. I was looking at 17-18 numbers.

I'm still not certain what isolating rebounding stats means though.

My point was I don’t know anything that Lebron does better than Jordan besides pass. He gets credit for being a better rebounder but the same people that blast the past for inflated numbers or different pace or a different game don’t really apply it to the modern nba. It’s just they are better and more skilled.

Future people will say that about this era too.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

My point was I don’t know anything that Lebron does better than Jordan besides pass. He gets credit for being a better rebounder but the same people that blast the past for inflated numbers or different pace or a different game don’t really apply it to the modern nba. It’s just they are better and more skilled.

Future people will say that about this era too.

I've also said this for quite a while as well. I fully and openly admit that I can't stand lebron , but I don't know how it's hating to say that he is probably a #2-#10 GOAT. If you even have him at #2 now, it's considered hating, yet there are just way too many holes to be the GOAT right now.

I really just think people forget the dominance Jordan had. They can't comprehend that a player before lebron did all of the things lebron does, most things better than he does and on top of that, reached a level where he couldn't be beaten. He had the same rise as lebron did in the first 7 years, then never lost again when he played a full season. I know that it's tough to comprehend, but a guy did it, and his name was Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

I credit this lebron craze as just being a prisoner of the moment, which is definitely understandable. Imagine if lebron came before Jordan and had Jordans career, and right now we were watching MJ be the best player in the league for a decade, but being 3-5 in the Finals. I wonder if we'd be having the same convo anyway because it would be what people are watching right now.

[broncomanning18]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

I've also said this for quite a while as well. I fully and openly admit that I can't stand lebron , but I don't know how it's hating to say that he is probably a #2-#10 GOAT. If you even have him at #2 now, it's considered hating, yet there are just way too many holes to be the GOAT right now.

I really just think people forget the dominance Jordan had. They can't comprehend that a player before lebron did all of the things lebron does, most things better than he does and on top of that, reached a level where he couldn't be beaten. He had the same rise as lebron did in the first 7 years, then never lost again when he played a full season. I know that it's tough to comprehend, but a guy did it, and his name was Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

amen brother, people like to forget he left the game in his prime to go play baseball for 2 years. He could have won 8 in a row i think

[Longshot18]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

My point was I don’t know anything that Lebron does better than Jordan besides pass. He gets credit for being a better rebounder but the same people that blast the past for inflated numbers or different pace or a different game don’t really apply it to the modern nba. It’s just they are better and more skilled.

Future people will say that about this era too.

For the record, this is not me saying LeBron is better. Truth is I have no clue, and neither does anyone else. Also, I have run into enough Jordan fanatics that literally short of going 82-0, going undefeated in playoffs for 10 straight years, and averaging 50 points a game for 10 years there is nothing any player can do that will ever change their mind. (Ok, that's an exaggeration, but the overall point will have people nodding their heads in agreement- Jordan mythically walks on water for some). Its opinion, so it won't ever be wrong. But I realize what I will point out will be immediately dismissed by some Jordan fan as crazy talk.

What does Lebron do better
Well according to pure stats he had better FG %, better 3 point %, better 2 point %, more rebounds per minute, more assists per minute- and more % of total rebounds available in any single game. So by stats he's a more effective scorer, better passer, better rebounder.

He went to more finals and his career is not done. He actually went to finals and won w/o a sidekick that will go down as one of the 50 best players ever. (Pippen). Lebrun has put together a resume of personal and team accomplishments that rivals any player in history w/o ever playing for a coach that would be mistaken as one of the best coaches ever, unlike Jordan.

Plus he never punched a team mate, never quit for several years on his team. That's not an on court measurable but to many it is part of the picture when discussing better careers

Also, Jordan was a better on ball and in the lane defender. But both offensively and defensively Lebron is/was more versatile. He has defended everything from PG to C , Jordan could not do that. Jordan had a great post up game- vs. guards. James can post up multiple positions. POsitional flexibility has value in the game.

I loved watching Jordan too. As a player I liked him better than Lebron. Maybe it's because LeBron has been elite and threatened the Spurs titles and Jordan never was competing with my favorite team. But contrary to popular belief, he does not walk on water and did not do everything better than Lebron.

If this thread and response is like others, every single one of those things will be justified somehow someway by Jordan fanatics. All too often there is literally nothing that can be said to some that will ever sway their thought. Anything another player did better is justified or minimized and anything Jordan did better is absolute concrete proof in some minds.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

Except I'm on the record multiple times saying that the overall game and skill level is better currently.

If you think this, there is no logic in making the silly comments you do, haha. If you think the skill is better, then players today who have better stats against better competition would not get dominated by players in the 90s who had worst stats against worst competition.

So you either have to work on your logic or keep sounding ridiculous like the other 90s fanboys.

[deemsterz33]

Shaquille O'neal put it best when the question was brought up in the postgame analysis.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by pgisback

If you think this, there is no logic in making the silly comments you do, haha. If you think the skill is better, then players today who have better stats against better competition would not get dominated by players in the 90s who had worst stats against worst competition.

So you either have to work on your logic or keep sounding ridiculous like the other 90s fanboys.

You really are dumber than the actual comments you.make.

Overall, surely the skill is better now..but maybe it's not. There's more Euro's and foreigners in the League. At the same.time there's.putrid teams getting around that are in love with the 3 ball.

It doesn't mean that the greats of the game wouldn't cross.over and be dominant right now.

Shaq, Hakeem etc would feast on the current League. Who the hell would stop them.

LeBron is all athleticism and has taken years to develop a shot. But mostly, he takes what the defense gives him. And they'll live with him shooting 3s. He's not some outstanding shooter. He doesn't have a great dribble. He's gonna need to keep improving as his athleticism starts to slow.

He's a great.passer because he is willing and has incredible strength..

His post game is weak and he can't stop any legit 4 man in the post.

The people voting him as the GOAT are delusional or holding plenty of his cards.

[RogerGodahell]

Bring on the hell ticks!

[6celtics33]

Longshot

When you say things like never had a 50 greatest teammate I just laugh

#1 Wade would be 50 greatest and arguably ranked higher than Scottie

#2 Kyrie and Love May not have as storied as a career as those others but they still put up 40 point playoff games, 30 point playoff games , and Kyrie got the game winner in game 7

Also if you’re talking about retirement then I guess you got me but Lebron is the only one to quit on his team