What will it take for Joker to be in top 10 conversation?

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by tjforce

All this talk about some titles not being as valuable as others is stupid in the modern era.

Mainly because you can find excuses why anyone's don't matter if you want:

-MJ's were against a broken down Lakers, semi star laden Blazers, Mid- Sonics, and 2 Jazz teams that couldnt win
-Hakeem's were because MJ had retired
-Shaq because the East was so weak
-Kobe because Shaq carried him
-LeBron because of Disney
and so on.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter.... you either won or you didnt.

-Curry wasn't the best player in 2 of his 4... but also....
-Durant wasn't the best player in either of his 2

I'm keeping a running list

[Kobefan]

Originally Posted by calmar

"So how many does Kareem have as the best player?"

Answer: Two or three, depending on whether you think he or Magic was better in 1982. (Advanced stats suggest they were about equal.) But there's no question that Kareem was the best player on the 1971 and 1980 NBA Champions, Magic's great Game 6 in 1980 notwithstanding. People forget, but Kareem had six titles in the modern era, the only all-time great besides Jordan and Pippen who can say that. He also was the best player in the NBA for essentially the entire decade of the 1970s.

But most people here can only count Finals MVP, so it's 2 for them.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by mc1

Rodman led the league in rebounding 7 seasons in a row in the 90s. The last 3 years he was with the Bulls during the second 3-peat. He was playing 34-35 mpg during the season. He actually had a smaller role with the Pistons when they were winning titles during his “prime”.

Rodman and Pippen are both top 10 defenders all-time.

Give Jokic just one guy who comes close and he'd be better-suited to win again.

MJ had the marketing, had Stern in his back pocket, had the ratings and $$ on the line, had the shoes business buzzing, a top 3 all-time coach and two all-time top 10 defenders. Dude had the best possible situation to win 3-peats.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by daeve

Rodman and Pippen are both top 10 defenders all-time.

Give Jokic just one guy who comes close and he'd be better-suited to win again.

MJ had the marketing, had Stern in his back pocket, had the ratings and $$ on the line, had the shoes business buzzing, a top 3 all-time coach and two all-time top 10 defenders. Dude had the best possible situation to win 3-peats.

What does marketing and shoes have to do with the ability to three peat? Are you saying the league was rigged in the 90s?

[daeve]

Originally Posted by calmar

"So how many does Kareem have as the best player?"

Answer: Two or three, depending on whether you think he or Magic was better in 1982. (Advanced stats suggest they were about equal.) But there's no question that Kareem was the best player on the 1971 and 1980 NBA Champions, Magic's great Game 6 in 1980 notwithstanding. People forget, but Kareem had six titles in the modern era, the only all-time great besides Jordan and Pippen who can say that. He also was the best player in the NBA for essentially the entire decade of the 1970s.

Yes sir, this and his prolific collegiate scoring which should've been NBA scoring if not for silly rules are why he's the #1.

Lebron would still be chasing Kareem's scoring mark if he didnt have to play 4 years in college, think about that for a minute. And then remember that the 3 point line didn't exist for the first decade of Kareem's career, and even when it did it wasn't a priority like it is today.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by daeve

Rodman and Pippen are both top 10 defenders all-time.

Give Jokic just one guy who comes close and he'd be better-suited to win again.

MJ had the marketing, had Stern in his back pocket, had the ratings and $$ on the line, had the shoes business buzzing, a top 3 all-time coach and two all-time top 10 defenders. Dude had the best possible situation to win 3-peats.

Was Stern in his back pocket or did Stern suspend him for killing his father? I cant keep MJ haters' story straight on here.

Also, as for "best situation to win 3-peats", you still have to go out and do it. There have been plenty of teams that were setup to win 3-peats and they didn't do it (Heatles, Warriors, etc.)

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

What does marketing and shoes have to do with the ability to three peat? Are you saying the league was rigged in the 90s?

They help you score 45 when your top 10 defender scores 8 and help you hit game winners when the whole defense is focused on stopping you because everyone in the building knows you'll be taking the shot.

Duh

[daeve]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

What does marketing and shoes have to do with the ability to three peat? Are you saying the league was rigged in the 90s?

I'm saying he got a lot of calls thanks to the financial interests he carried, yes. You don't remember any of his famous 'push-offs'? Recall also how villainized Draymond was for punching Poole, I don't recall MJ's popularity suffering at all for decking Steve Kerr.

People really separated the art from the artist in MJ's case. And this is without even putting on our tin foil hats and talking for real about why he "chose to play baseball" in the middle of his peak athletic years.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

Was Stern in his back pocket or did Stern suspend him for killing his father? I cant keep MJ haters' story straight on here.

It's like politics. When they accuse you of being a hater, just sit back and watch them hate.

The loaded team concept is hilarious coming from the guy who got Durant in a luck box salary cap situation.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

They help you score 45 when your top 10 defender scores 8 and help you hit game winners when the whole defense is focused on stopping you because everyone in the building knows you'll be taking the shot.

Duh

But they were loaded even outside of the team friendly contract player Pippen. They had the 2nd best shooter ever in Steve Kerr and he even had to come off the bench. That's how loaded they were.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by daeve

I'm saying he got a lot of calls thanks to the financial interests he carried, yes. You don't remember any of his famous 'push-offs'? Recall also how villainized Draymond was for punching Poole, I don't recall MJ's popularity suffering at all for decking Steve Kerr.

People really separated the art from the artist in MJ's case. And this is without even putting on our tin foil hats and talking for real about why he "chose to play baseball" in the middle of his peak athletic years.

My theory is based on exactly what he said. He'd been deep in the playoffs for years. He had as many mvps as magic and bird and did a 3 peat that they never did. He vanquished the Pistons and tied wilt for scoring titles and won defensive player of the year. His statement was when I feel there's nothing for me to prove as a basketball player I need to walk away. (paraphrasing)

Every ounce of evidence that we know about this person proves that to be true. He thrived on challenges and needed something to overcome. He was still talking about it at his retirement speech. Maybe he wanted a new challenge.

What's your theory?

[6celtics33]

And they want to say this era is tougher because nobody 3 peats. Maybe. Maybe nobody is good enough. They didn't 3 peat in the 2000s or the 80s or the 70s either. Maybe Jordan was just that good. Maybe the Shaq's dominance was just that good at that stage of his career. At least it's possible.

Denver lost because Minnesota had the perfect team to play them with and they got little to no bench production. And Jokic had great numbers in game 7. So it looks like he did everything he could on paper. But maybe he shouldn't shoot so many damn 3s next time.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by daeve

I'm saying he got a lot of calls thanks to the financial interests he carried, yes. You don't remember any of his famous 'push-offs'? Recall also how villainized Draymond was for punching Poole, I don't recall MJ's popularity suffering at all for decking Steve Kerr.

People really separated the art from the artist in MJ's case. And this is without even putting on our tin foil hats and talking for real about why he "chose to play baseball" in the middle of his peak athletic years.

So much wrong with this. If you can’t understand the differences between Draymond and MJ, I can’t help you.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

And they want to say this era is tougher because nobody 3 peats. Maybe. Maybe nobody is good enough. They didn't 3 peat in the 2000s or the 80s or the 70s either. Maybe Jordan was just that good. Maybe the Shaq's dominance was just that good at that stage of his career. At least it's possible.

Denver lost because Minnesota had the perfect team to play them with and they got little to no bench production. And Jokic had great numbers in game 7. So it looks like he did everything he could on paper. But maybe he shouldn't shoot so many damn 3s next time.

Nobody wants to discuss him shooting 2-8 in the 2nd half with WIDE OPEN 3s.

Nobody wants to discuss him getting blocked TWICE by Naz Reid in crunch time.

[mjekase]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

But they were loaded even outside of the team friendly contract player Pippen. They had the 2nd best shooter ever in Steve Kerr and he even had to come off the bench. That's how loaded they were.

Ugh. Kerr wasn't even on the team during the first 3 titles. And during his first title run with them, he shot 32% from 3 in the playoffs.

"and he even had to come off the bench."......It may come as a surprise to you that Kerr came off the bench for every team he played on. He started 30 games in his entire career.

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

And they want to say this era is tougher because nobody 3 peats. Maybe. Maybe nobody is good enough. They didn't 3 peat in the 2000s or the 80s or the 70s either. Maybe Jordan was just that good. Maybe the Shaq's dominance was just that good at that stage of his career. At least it's possible.

Bird retired in 1992, Magic retired in 1991, came back in 1996 and played only 32 games. When the Bulls did two 3-peats in the 90's and the Lakers did one in 2000-2002, who were the best players in the league at that time? Name those players and how many of them are in top 25 greatest players of all time? How many players were there in the league since 2003 who would be in the same category (Top 25 of all time)? You can expand it to Top 50 players of all time if you want. Lets name the players (1992-2002 and post-2003) and objectively assess the level of Talent pool and competition. I am not factoring the impact of coaching.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

Bird retired in 1992, Magic retired in 1991, came back in 1996 and played only 32 games. When the Bulls did two 3-peats in the 90's and the Lakers did one in 2000-2002, who were the best players in the league at that time? Name those players and how many of them are in top 25 greatest players of all time? How many players were there in the league since 2003 who would be in the same category (Top 25 of all time)? You can expand it to Top 50 players of all time if you want. Lets name the players (1992-2002 and post-2003) and objectively assess the level of Talent pool and competition. I am not factoring the impact of coaching.

That's a whole lot of homework you are handing out... why not just do it for us?

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by mc1

From 2006-07 to 2009-10 Bosh and Wade didnt make the playoffs 3 of 8 seasons. The other 5 they lost in the 1st round. Lebron was doing a whole lot better than that.

Wade won a ring as the alpha dog before Bron hopped on the train.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Wade won a ring as the alpha dog before Bron hopped on the train.

He had a whole lot of vets (including Shaq), Riley and the refs on his side for that one ring.

He never won another playoff series on his own after that rigged Finals. Thats Karma.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by daeve

Rodman and Pippen are both top 10 defenders all-time.

Give Jokic just one guy who comes close and he'd be better-suited to win again.

MJ had the marketing, had Stern in his back pocket, had the ratings and $$ on the line, had the shoes business buzzing, a top 3 all-time coach and two all-time top 10 defenders. Dude had the best possible situation to win 3-peats.

Jordan made his teammates and coaching staff look better.

He didn’t fire his coach every other year or abandon his teammates to make his life easier.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by mc1

He had a whole lot of vets (including Shaq), Riley and the refs on his side for that one ring.

He never won another playoff series on his own after that rigged Finals. Thats Karma.

Bron had Shaq and a bunch of vets but couldn’t win a ring.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

Bird retired in 1992, Magic retired in 1991, came back in 1996 and played only 32 games. When the Bulls did two 3-peats in the 90's and the Lakers did one in 2000-2002, who were the best players in the league at that time? Name those players and how many of them are in top 25 greatest players of all time? How many players were there in the league since 2003 who would be in the same category (Top 25 of all time)? You can expand it to Top 50 players of all time if you want. Lets name the players (1992-2002 and post-2003) and objectively assess the level of Talent pool and competition. I am not factoring the impact of coaching.

Well first we are never going to agree on who the top 25 are but in that range I’d go

Magic because Jordan did beat him before he was broke down and old like you all want to believe. He was like 30 and finished 2nd in the mvp race behind Jordan after winning it the prior 2 years.

Other than that. Shaq, Olajuwon, Karl, Barkley, David Robinson, and John Stockton would be my top 25 ish range players from that era

Now one more thing that works against the 90s that I wouldn’t expect anyone to care about but is absolutely true is that the talented players didn’t necessarily end up with all time careers. You had the beginnings of Kobe Garnett and Duncan. Iverson. But also Penny and Hill who didn’t pan out injury wise but were on that level for a short time. Also kemp.


Post 2003 Lebron, Wade, Duncan, Kobe, kg, Dirk, Steph, jokic, Durant and in the same sense as players I mentioned, Kawhi would’ve been if not for injuries.

I don’t know if that’s more or less or care. 2003-now is 21 years. 1992-2002 is 10 years. There should be more.

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by tjforce

That's a whole lot of homework you are handing out... why not just do it for us?

List based on Top 25 players of all time (source below)-

A. Bulls 3-Peat years: Players other than MJ and Pippen

1. Hakeem (1984-2001)
2. Charles Barkley (1984-2000)
3. Karl Malone (1985-2003)
4. John Stockton (1984-2003)
5. David Robinson (1989-2003)
6. Shaq (1992-2011)

I did not include Kobe here since he entered the league in 1996

B. Lakers three peat (2000-2002): Best players other than Kobe and Shaq

1. Tim Duncan (1997-2016)
2. Kevin Garnett (1995-2016)
2. Dirk (1998-2019)

C. Post-2003:

1. Kobe
2. Shaq
3. Lebron
4. Duncan
5. Curry
6. Durant
7. Dirk
8.Giannis?
Some more current players like Jokic might crack the top 25 by the time they retire.

Source:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...check-our-list

https://hoopshype.com/lists/77-great...oopshype-list/

[6celtics33]

I forgot Giannis, yep

[6celtics33]

So you think Pippen is top 25 all time but Wade isn’t? Or just the list you’ve found?