LeBron Exquisite /99 - altered & damaged

[minnesotachill]

Scenarios like that will eventually drive the little guy out of the hobby.

And guys like Eric will just make more $$, and get bigger and bigger until they think they are bigger than the hobby itself.

[Deadshot]

Originally Posted by The Finest

I really don't see anything wrong with this exact scenario given. Edit- (Except on BGS's part)

I agree. The grading company would be at fault in this hypothetical scenario.

This conversation could go a lot of different ways from here (and it probably should over the next several months). I've gone through a lot of scenarios for the altered cards over the last couple of days and the whole thing still strikes me as odd. I actually don't think BNC himself orchestrated this (there are plenty of leads where someone could reasonably think otherwise - I'm not going to argue about those at this point). If he had handled issues appropriately when they happened, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead we end up with over 100 pages of chaos (that will have some worthwhile outcomes as well).

BNC - Personally, I'd still like to figure out where along the way the LeBron's got trimmed. I don't think you did it yourself. But you should have noticed something was up. I mean you have a LeBron database on your site.

You have a responsibility to snuff out malpractice in this hobby just like everyone else - in fact, I think you have more power to do so. And it should be used responsibly. So at least use your expertise to help us come to some sort of resolution. You fed us a lot of lines in your ONE post about doing good things for the hobby. Take the lead.

Don't come here and act like this whole conversation is an inconvenience to you. Don't come here and bemoan the place Blowout has become. You're not a victim. That's petty.

I wouldn't know you if I walked by you on the street, but you've made a lot of friends in this hobby and they have to walk on eggshells around here because you won't man up and deal with the situation at hand. So now that's an indictment on your character.

There are at least a handful of high dollar cards in your hands that need some sort of resolution. I plan to bump this thread daily for the foreseeable future.

[theLUCKYshow]

Well said, Deadshot. Well f'n said.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[KhalDrogo]

Nothing to do with BNC, but I got to thinking about notable black labels from the discussion in the football forum. I never knew both Kobe black labels were graded in the same order on December 16, 2015. Here is the list of consecutive cards graded on that date. I would bet they were all from the same order given how high end they all are.

8995272 2001 SP Authentic T.Woods AS AU/900 RC: NG
8995273 2002-03 UD SuperStars Legendary Leaders Dual Jersey Autograph Michael Jordan/Tiger Woods: NG
8995274 1986-87 Fleer Michael Jordan RC: NG
8995275 1986-87 Fleer Michael Jordan RC: NG
8995276 1986-87 Fleer Michael Jordan RC: NG
8995277 2003-04 SPx LeBron James JSY AU RC: NG
8995278 2003-04 Topps Chrome Refractors LeBron James: NG
8995279 1996-97 Topps Chrome Refractors Kobe Bryant: BGS 10
8995280 1996-97 Topps Chrome Refractors Kobe Bryant: BGS 10
8995271 1998 SP Authentic Peyton Manning RC: NG
8995272 NO RECORD FOUND

When no grade is rendered, that means it either did not meet the minimum grade or it was found to be altered, correct?

Does anyone know who the original owner of these two is?

8995279 sold January 19, 2016 through a consigner. This copy sold again through PWCC in March 2016.

A one-time owner of 8995280 posted it in B/S/T in February 2016. I assume he is the owner who sold it through Heritage in August 2016. He actually posted about the other copy here in March 2016 after the PWCC sale.

Oddly enough, just to shed some light on the whole topic from what I have heard (by no means does this make it true) about the $73,000 purchase and then the card going to auction. So the same owner of both Black Label 10's decided to sell one and consigned the card, the card was sold to a buyer for $73K via eBay and then decided he wanted to unload the card relatively quickly to buy a 51 Bowman Mickey Mantle PSA 8....super expensive card. He then consigned the card to PWCC in hopes of bringing at least what he paid for the card, needless to say...he did not. Because the card has no established track record of sales that felt legitimate, buyers were skeptical and nobody really has an idea of what this cards true value is. We can infer from the BIN price on eBay in January of $73K and this recent sale of $58K that this cards value is really significant no matter what. I do not say this because I have the only other one of the two, I say this because as someone mentioned in an earlier thread, this is Kobe Bryant's #1 RC and it is still a Pristine Black Label. We are talking about one of the best basketball players to ever play the game, who is retiring after this season and will be inducted into the HOF in a few years...in my opinion, this card will be well worth over $100K by that time. Not to mention that there were not so many Refractors made back in 1996, it was pretty much the beginning of the "insert" cards, it does not even have a #/xx for example, only an "R." Just wanted to give my 2 cents.

From this post, it is reasonable to infer that this person knows the individual who had the two black labels slabbed because he purchased the 8995280 copy from him. At least at the time, this person appeared to be acting on behalf of an investment group of Veterans as discussed here. So I highly doubt this person was the one who had the card graded.

At the time of the sales, there were some posts here doubting the legitimacy of these copies. I think it's worth revisiting again, in light of what we know now about the Lebrons.

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by MeteoriteGuy

It would be best if both went on the record on various related issues. However, it is impossible to ignore that over 95% of the graded cards in this thread, are BGS, which Jmania appears to have somehow done. So much so that Jmania's opinion has likely shown to be bias, at best.

I also imagine this is something that should get its own thread.

You are entitled to your opinion but which question is invalid for PSA to answer. Anyone that knows me knows I prefer Beckett over PSA. But that is also because of how the companies have treated me. I don't think it makes me biased in that I believe the questions are valid and I can be objective. I did not call out Beckett in a public form with questions because if I had a question for Beckett, I could get an answer and always have. Never get an answer from PSA. But does that not mean the questions for PSA are not valid.

My questions are specific to PSA who has the guarantee and is part of a public company which I believe gives it an obligation to provide information. The questions are specific to PSA and could not be asked of Beckett - guarantee, public company, David Hall, Mastro preference, celebrity bumps, Wagner card, Steve Grad departure, purportedly not grading sheet cut cards, cases that can be compromised for how many years now and after the When it Was a Game scandal, purported industry leader. Perhaps you are correct it does not fit with this forum exactly but it is tangentally related to the topic. If you would like, I can post those questions under a new headline in the CU forum and I bet they will be deleted and I would be banned even though the questions are valid for a public company. 95% of cards you say - I have not seen many cards here noted at all, seen a few b/c of serial numbers. Nothing that was noted surprised me, I am aware of the reality of what goes on and have been for many years, do not call out names of card doctors and would not.

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by duron

Nope, completely reasonable, and I'll quote 6celtics33 again because it's the most accurate phrasing that I've seen on the forums regarding this topic:

"Getting fingerprints or smudges or lint off is external to the card, yes get those off. Scratches however are damage to the card. Correcting structural damage seems more like altering than just wiping crap off."

Now, as much as certain people want to believe "restoration" in cards is ok and not equivalent to alteration, I'm then forced to believe with the same conviction that they have either profited directly or indirectly for such a "service," or are planning to in the future. I thank them for flagging themselves.

I do not know that people said that "restoration" was not alteration. Restoration is alteration. But the person who does the "restoration" service in my view would not be prosecuted if he merely performs the service and returns the card to the owner. A 10 year old article was referenced and that person was not prosecuted and they are open about what they do. Shady to most people, unethical - yes, but not a crime. I would be cautious about calling someone a criminal unless you know what crime he or she committed. The crime would be by the person who submits the card for grading and profits off of it without full disclosure - also as a civil matter likely a violation of consumer protection laws in many states.

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by Doublexthebeast

I read the comments about "bumping" a card and think it depends on what you do to get the bump. I have sent cards in before for a bump but under very specific circumstances.

My PSA 10 Grant Hill Dunk N Go Nuts used to be a BGS 9. I could clearly see that there was a fingerprint on the acetate surface. It had sub grades of centering 10, edges 9.5, corners 10, and the surface was 8 or 8.5. I cracked it and took 5 seconds to wipe off the fingerprint. I sent it in and got a 10.

So, that seems to be fine in my opinion. However, trimming or altering a card is entirely different. Is cleaning the surface to get a bump a bad thing?

Just to be clear, when talking about "bumping", this was not a "bump". A bump is when one reviews the card in the same company's case and receives an increase in overall grade (or if applicable sub-grades).

[duron]

Originally Posted by JMANIA

I do not know that people said that "restoration" was not alteration. Restoration is alteration.

Numerous people have already implied as much on Instagram as well as in a thread already referenced here (https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=982715) back on page 36. I get that some comments are meant to be more tongue in cheek than anything, but at the same time, others are quite telling.

Originally Posted by JMANIA

But the person who does the "restoration" service in my view would not be prosecuted if he merely performs the service and returns the card to the owner. A 10 year old article was referenced and that person was not prosecuted and they are open about what they do. Shady to most people, unethical - yes, but not a crime. I would be cautious about calling someone a criminal unless you know what crime he or she committed. The crime would be by the person who submits the card for grading and profits off of it without full disclosure - also as a civil matter likely a violation of consumer protection laws in many states.

It's clear the treatments themselves are technically not criminal. This is evidenced by those such as GoneWithTheStain who have operated for years, but is it flawed thinking to believe a significant portion of the customer base who use such services plan to profit from them?

[thenwhatjk]

Kind of a non sequitor but does anyone have any idea what percentage of Giannis NT /99’s bnc is holding? It’s a lot right?

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by duron

Numerous people have already implied as much on Instagram as well as in a thread already referenced here (https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=982715) back on page 36. I get that some comments are meant to be more tongue in cheek than anything, but at the same time, others are quite telling.



It's clear the treatments themselves are technically not criminal. This is evidenced by those such as GoneWithTheStain who have operated for years, but is it flawed thinking to believe a significant portion of the customer base who use such services plan to profit from them?

Understood and agree.

[Deadshot]

Is this Aaron Rodgers once sold by BNC some sort of a repair job? An oversight by PSA? A cautious effort from the original seller to describe "damage" that wasn't really damage?

It sold on BNC's website as a PSA 10.

https://buynicecards.com/product/200...-psa-10-pop-14

When it sold on January 19, 2011, the original seller included pictures of chipping and this description:

"The card is overall good condition. Clean signature. Good corners and edges. Surface is scratch free. The card does have some minow chipping or something. Appears to be from the process of making or packaging the card It appears along the right hand edge near the top. And along the left edge one spot. It almost looks like dust or something that you could just brush off. But it is not abuse."

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...rsey-132248369





Probestein sold the card unslabbed on June 14, 2016 with similar chipping.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...-rc-1818699484



I can't tell if this chipping is on the BNC slabbed version or not because of chipping, but it graded a 10. I don't know who had it slabbed either - most of the Exquisite stuff I see on the site is BGS.

[superdan49]

So to this point, the thread has rightly focused on BuyNiceCards's baseketball and football cards. And rightly so.

However, I decided to check what he has sold in baseball cards. What I found surprised, but did not shock me. I am working on a larger update to this which I will post in the baseball section in the coming days. I'll link it here when I do.


On October 14, 2014, a near-complete set of the 1996 Leaf Signature Series Gold autographs was auctioned individually on eBay. Included in this set was the Derek Jeter card. This is the Gold parallel of Jeter's 1996 Leaf Signature Bronze autograph, and is one of the most desirable cards of the Yankee legend from his ROY winning season:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...996-1544224507






It sold for $882.00, a nice chunk of change for a card which has stated damage. If you look at the red arrow I placed in the screenshot, the seller is explicit and upfront about the damage in the card, noting that the "bottom right corner has a ding" and there is "a very little wrinkle on the front" which "shows on the back." Worthpoint photos pre-2016 are small, but even so you can see the bottom right corner ding if you look at the magnified image, included by the seller in his listing:







Although these cards are not serial numbered, they are autographed, so unlike unnumbered or vintage cards it is possible to track them down even if they are not serial stamped. As such, I tracked down the same card, which sold raw would get no better than a PSA 5 grade with a dinged corner and a wrinkle. However, it was not only now a BGS 9.5 Gem Mint, but a "True Gem"!! The seller? BuyNiceCards, who on November 17, 2017 was selling this card for $9,999.99 or best offer.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...old-1898005363






Despite the fact that I was only able to obtain small images from Worthpoint (which only recently has begun to include larger images for eBay items sold), you can still see that the signatures are an exact match. The conclusion: the BuyNiceCards Jeter Gold auto is the exact same card as the damaged raw Jeter Gold auto sold three years before.







Furthermore, the back of the damaged raw Jeter auto had some minor chipping on the back right edge and minor wear in the upper back right corner, which I've circled below. These flaws are gone in the BuyNiceCards BGS 9.5 Jeter Gold auto back:







In conclusion, I want to stress that I am not accusing Eric of BuyNiceCards of altering or knowing about this card's doctoring and trimming. The evidence is not there to support that conclusion. Three years is a long period for this card to "go dark" to the hobby. However, it is part of a bigger picture of cards which are 100% altered somehow finding their way to BuyNiceCards to sell. Eric, feel free to chime in here to provide us with more info on this or any other cards.

[theLUCKYshow]

Wow, really disturbing stuff once again Superdan. Great thinking looking at autos instead of serial numbers to expand the search.

I know you're not directly accusing BNC of anything here because you like to be incredibly thorough (very commendable) but I'm pretty sure I know how the lionshare of BO will view this, and understandably so.

To BNC, the time for damage control has come and gone IMO. I know what I want to hear, and that's some honesty... even some really vague honesty would suffice at this point.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[AlabamaSlamma]

once again, incredible sleuthing. thank you for sharing.

[KhalDrogo]

I can’t easiky do it right now, but we should check the serial numbers around that Jeter to see what other cards were in that submission.

[MIRRABB]

Great find there.

[trmpetyjo]

I know we started a new year and all but this thread is incredible and a definite front runner for the (Thread of the Year Award). Be interesting to see what tops this one.

Can someone please make a condensed list of names and allegations for those just trying to catch up? Trying to read 122 pages has turned my brain to mush, haha

Would really be nice too, if we had someone willing to point out these booths or people at the national so we can avoid them or at least be aware of who we are dealing with. Putting some faces to the names would be nice

[ThoseBackPages]

Did the Dr smudge the "D" in Derek during surgery? it could just be on the slab

[Deadshot]

It would be interesting to see what other cards were submitted in that batch. If we keep taking this route, at some point some of this stuff will line up and we can trace the lineage. If BNC didn't trim these cards (and I don't think he actually did), you'd think he would want to jump in and help trace the lineage so we could snuff this out.

Let's go back to his own words.

Originally Posted by ebitz

I love and respect the forum, what it provides all of us, it is an important part of the hobby. I will continue to support it as well as all who use it in any way that I possibly can.

We need your support here tracing the lineage of these cards.

Originally Posted by ebitz

My real concern for us as a group is what happens when the next Nat Turner wants to get in to the hobby and stumbles on to the forum and he is wanting to learn and he sees us all trying to rip each other down rather than pushing each other up and he decides this is not something he wants to be a part of, it’s not healthy, and it's not good for any of us in the hobby, and unfortunately it's probably already happened. At this rate it’s inevitably going to happen that the next Nat Turner is going to come to the forum and be like wtf, I’m out.

What happens when the next Nat Turner comes in here and sees that the largest high end dealer (which is where he would likely shop by the way) at the very least SUCKS at researching cards he buys? Don't use someone's name at your disposal to make a stupid point like that.

Originally Posted by ebitz

I absolutely think it's important that we as a group need to look out for each other and protect each other from the evils that exists in the hobby because there are many.

Wow great point.

Originally Posted by ebitz

And honestly I’m probably not going to do much to change it but if my two best cards now having an asterisk next to them is what it takes to get change started then so be it, I’m willing.

Originally Posted by ebitz

I believe it to be crucial that we as a group find new ways to improve and grow, we cannot keep going as we have been.

Growth is good

Originally Posted by ebitz

I want to be here to help and support anyone in any way that I can.

Originally Posted by ebitz

I hope we can all grow from this and make the hobby better than it was before.

Originally Posted by ebitz

I want to sincerely thank all of you who put so much time into this thread.

lol

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

Did the Dr smudge the "D" in Derek during surgery? it could just be on the slab

Good eyes. I guess we'd have to see a new image of the card to know whether that is glare off the holder or an accidental smudge from doctoring.

[MIRRABB]

Originally Posted by Deadshot

It would be interesting to see what other cards were submitted in that batch. If we keep taking this route, at some point some of this stuff will line up and we can trace the lineage. If BNC didn't trim these cards (and I don't think he actually did), you'd think he would want to jump in and help trace the lineage so we could snuff this out.

Let's go back to his own words.



We need your support here tracing the lineage of these cards.



What happens when the next Nat Turner comes in here and sees that the largest high end dealer (which is where he would likely shop by the way) at the very least SUCKS at researching cards he buys? Don't use someone's name at your disposal to make a stupid point like that.



Wow great point.






Growth is good







lol

That post is the best example of "Concern Trolling" that I've ever seen.

[qdoggmets]

Is there a time line of events and list of key posts for this thread? It is impossible to read the entire thing due to its size and complexity.

[imbluestreak23]

At this point, I wouldn't touch anything BNC is selling, unless it's a Bron trimmed Exquisite. In which case I'd pay about three fitty.

Name should be "Buy and Trim Cards!" or "Buy Trimmed Cards!"

[fenwaykid]

Why don't we put BNC's full name in the header...there's a post in the football section where the same thing was done.

[Siberian13]

Originally Posted by fenwaykid

Why don't we put BNC's full name in the header...there's a post in the football section where the same thing was done.

Just have to ask the mods. But not sure if OP has to do it. He hasn't been back since this thread was posted.