LeBron Exquisite /99 - altered & damaged

[Deadshot]

I know we have people trying to catch up and reading in pieces, so I want to remind everyone about the LeBron we're looking at right now. sohrob seemed to own the card in its worst condition. There are no indications that he tried to fix it himself - in fact it looks like he got it slabbed with the damage.

Here's the card in 2013 unslabbed but with a bad pic. The damage isn't visible but the picture makes it hard to tell.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...card-418369022

[JMANIA]

My questions are for PSA and not any individuals:

How many cards has PSA graded? Of those cards, how many cards and what total value has PSA had to buyback because the cards were trimmed/altered? Does PSA agree those prior buybacks are proof that it cannot deliver on its promise to detect trimming/alterations?

Does PSA or Collectors Universe have funds in reserve for future buybacks? Given that values of cards have increased, is PSA or Collectors Universe concerned about the future cost of buybacks if proper information surface? Has this been acknowledged as a risk in Collectors Universe's financial disclosures?

Since PSA's buyback guarantee is detrimental to PSA financially, how can the public be sure PSA is taking the proper steps to fulfill its guarantee obligation?

Why has a list of Mastro's submissions never been released in that it is widely agreed he was a card doctor who received preferential grades from PSA? Has PSA attempted to buy back any of Mastro's doctored cards? Does PSA deny that it had a close relationship with Mastro that was a conflict of interest?

I have heard that PSA has banned submitters after realizing they were trimmers. If true, did PSA take any steps to retrieve the cards that person has submitted for grading and already sold to an unsuspecting buyer? Was a second review done on any of those graded cards? Has PSA left the burden on the collecting community or buyers of the PSA cards to figure out which cards were altered/trimmed rather than PSA following-up based upon information it has?

Does PSA publicly acknowledge that it cannot detect all cases of trimming and alteration? If the answer is yes, why does PSA continue to claim that it provides such service in the grading process and provide a guarantee?

Does PSA continue to deny having known that the Wagner card was cut from a sheet and trimmed prior to grading it despite all the evidence which states otherwise? If PSA did not know, is this not an example of PSA's failure to detect a trimmed card? Was PSA complicit in grading the card or simply incompetent?

PSA claims not to grade sheet cut cards; however does PSA admit that it has graded sheet cut cards it did not properly detect were sheet cut? Is PSA aware that people cut sheet cut cards and then attempt to disguise them as not sheet cut prior to submission?

Is PSA aware that since the market increased for PSA cards, more card doctors inherently submitted cards to PSA?

Is PSA aware of the rumors that famous people and key industry names have greater success in bumping PSA cards on review? Has a statistical study ever been done to prove or disprove this? If true, how is it that the original owner of the card missed out on what PSA deemed the proper grade originally?

Is PSA aware of the discussion that the PSA/DNA autograph service has struggled to authenticate even items that were signed in person now that Steve Grad is no longer with PSA? How does PSA respond to claims that the service has fallen off significantly and merely lives off of the brand name?

Why did David Hall depart Collectors Universe? It seems odd that someone who started a company would be forced out without any public reason provided.

Why does PSA not make a case that cannot be compromised? Is this a financial decision or the desire to continue with the same look of card cases/flips?

Since PSA is part of a public company, does it feel it is appropriate to disclose the above information by answering these questions?

[6celtics33]

JMANIA I would like to know the answers to many of those as well

[theLUCKYshow]

Those are a lot of great questions JMANIA. If only PSA (and BGS) were willing to have a rep on these boards.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Deadshot]

A little follow up on the LeBron. I hesitate to keep posting it because I don't think it has much to do with the cards I was wanting to focus on. Blowout user exoticprince posted the card for sale in Sept 2015. This still has the bad surface grade but you can't see a scratch in the pics. I believe sohrob's pic was bad. Now I'm wondering where the surface damage is.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=917535

[ThoseBackPages]

that is a great question!

[Deadshot]

Here's my updated set of questions. I still want to add more about some specific cards. In my mind, it all goes back to the LeBron's. BNC's words indicate he wants to establish better accountability in the hobby. I've included some of those quotes in my questions.

Business practices:

• What percentage of your listings are cards that you own vs cards that you’re consigning for others?

• How many prominent collectors would you say you consign for?

• Obviously you've sold an incredible amount of cards over the years. How do you determine which sold cards are placed on your website? Like how did you choose the 2 Curry NT cards on your site now as opposed to these 3 you showed off on your IG at some point?
https://www.instagram.com/p/2OgKtBwp..._web_copy_link

• The whole reason we’re having this conversation is the result of altered cards. We’ll get into specifics later. But what is your current protocol for dealing with trimmed/altered cards? It seems to vary by value.

• Although there’s nothing inherently evil about having someone else sell your cards, the practice allows card owners to hide their bad practices behind the consigner. Now that you’ve had a chance to look at your items listed for sale, is there anyone who you’ve sold for who’s sent you the highest number of altered items? Or more than one altered item?

• Is there anyone that you will not consign for going forward that you have in the past?

• Where do you stand morally on the issue of subbing over and over until you get the grade you want?

• You have admitted to doing this. How many times do you resub?

• What’s the largest subgrade swing you’ve seen from bumping a card without changing the structure of a card?

• When you “bump” cards, as you stated that you do and don’t feel is wrong, what actions do you feel comfortable making on the cards before sending them in? What do you feel is appropriate? What is inappropriate?

• Some people feel that wiping a card down or rolling out edges/corners with a pen or similar instrument is okay. Do you ever engage in this activity?

• Have you ever sent a card to someone else so they can fix it for you in any way (not necessarily trimming)? If so, who did you send to?

• Where, to you, is the line where “cleaning” a card becomes “altering” a card?


Specific cards:

• In May of 2018, you were informed that an Allen Iverson Sign of the Times in your possession had a forged autograph on it. In response, you pulled the card from your website. What happened to the card after that? How did you/will you ensure that it doesn’t wind up in another collector’s hands?

• Evidence shows that a Kobe Game Breakers you had for sale on your site (and have since removed) had been trimmed. What happened to this card? Where is it now? What is your plan for the card going forward?

• You listed the 87/99 LeBron for sale before it was altered (listed in 2013). Although you haven’t listed it for sale, you now own it and it has been altered. Can you take us through what happened with the card between the time you originally listed it and its current state?

• Your story about acquiring the 74/99 LeBron is different from Jack’s in a material way. He says that it was a three-way deal. You have said that the card came directly from Sohrob. Which is true? Can you give us any other details about the deal that may be helpful? Assuming that you state that Jack is lying, why would he? What does he have to gain by lying?

• You described your deal with sohrob as “a rather large deal involving hundreds of cards, likely ones of the largest and most important deals to me personally that I have ever done.” Do you have any other cards left from sohrob’s collection that you can tell us about?

• Your handling of the AI/Kobe cards and the LeBron’s are inconsistent at best. Is there a legitimate reason for this? It seems like your ethics change based on a card’s value.

Going forward:

• In your lone post on the LeBron thread, you stated, “Given the course that this thread has taken I think it would be a lost opportunity to walk away from without learning anything.” What have you learned from this entire debacle about the cards you’ve owned and currently own?

• In the same post you also stated, “I absolutely think it's important that we as a group need to look out for each other and protect each other from the evils that exists in the hobby because there are many…. And honestly I’m probably not going to do much to change it but if my two best cards now having an asterisk next to them is what it takes to get change started then so be it, I’m willing.” What specifically did you mean by, “I’m willing?”

• What will your role be in this hobby moving forward? Is it business as usual again or have you implemented any changes to your business since the Blowout thread started?

• If you haven’t implemented any concrete changes yet, why the delay? You personally stated, “It is my hope that it [the Blowout thread] can help us evolve and be a catalyst for positive change”

• What will your future approach look like to handling altered cards?

• How will you deal with past buyers who, upon reading this thread and studying the cards that they purchased from you, discover that you sold them altered cards?

[WHyFLy]

Excellent questions for Eric, though I highly doubt he will answer any of these. I’d also like to know if Eric keeps a database of all his transactions in his business (all big dealers I know do) and why hasn’t he provided that information to anyone here (that we know of)? It’s a simple request that would be a huge step in the right direction in figuring out how he got the card, where it came from, and when.

[Deadshot]

Originally Posted by WHyFLy

Excellent questions for Eric, though I highly doubt he will answer any of these. I’d also like to know if Eric keeps a database of all his transactions in his business (all big dealers I know do) and why hasn’t he provided that information to anyone here (that we know of)? It’s a simple request that would be a huge step in the right direction in figuring out how he got the card, where it came from, and when.

Thank you - that's an excellent question. I will work that in with "business practices."

[Jasondr91]

Originally Posted by Deadshot

The 8.5 version shows a significant scratch above the basketball in Lebron's hand, which is magically gone in the higher subbed version. I've seen surface grades take a hit because of smudges and fingerprints being on the surface. Wipe them and you are getting a chance at a better grade......but removing what appears to be a surface scratch? From an 8 surface to a 9.5?

[Siberian13]

Originally Posted by Jasondr91

The 8.5 version shows a significant scratch above the basketball in Lebron's hand, which is magically gone in the higher subbed version. I've seen surface grades take a hit because of smudges and fingerprints being on the surface. Wipe them and you are getting a chance at a better grade......but removing what appears to be a surface scratch? From an 8 surface to a 9.5?

[Jasondr91]

Originally Posted by Siberian13

Thanks, I posted too soon.

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by JMANIA

My questions are for PSA and not any individuals:

How many cards has PSA graded? Of those cards, how many cards and what total value has PSA had to buyback because the cards were trimmed/altered? Does PSA agree those prior buybacks are proof that it cannot deliver on its promise to detect trimming/alterations?

Does PSA or Collectors Universe have funds in reserve for future buybacks? Given that values of cards have increased, is PSA or Collectors Universe concerned about the future cost of buybacks if proper information surface? Has this been acknowledged as a risk in Collectors Universe's financial disclosures?

Since PSA's buyback guarantee is detrimental to PSA financially, how can the public be sure PSA is taking the proper steps to fulfill its guarantee obligation?

Why has a list of Mastro's submissions never been released in that it is widely agreed he was a card doctor who received preferential grades from PSA? Has PSA attempted to buy back any of Mastro's doctored cards? Does PSA deny that it had a close relationship with Mastro that was a conflict of interest?

I have heard that PSA has banned submitters after realizing they were trimmers. If true, did PSA take any steps to retrieve the cards that person has submitted for grading and already sold to an unsuspecting buyer? Was a second review done on any of those graded cards? Has PSA left the burden on the collecting community or buyers of the PSA cards to figure out which cards were altered/trimmed rather than PSA following-up based upon information it has?

Does PSA publicly acknowledge that it cannot detect all cases of trimming and alteration? If the answer is yes, why does PSA continue to claim that it provides such service in the grading process and provide a guarantee?

Does PSA continue to deny having known that the Wagner card was cut from a sheet and trimmed prior to grading it despite all the evidence which states otherwise? If PSA did not know, is this not an example of PSA's failure to detect a trimmed card? Was PSA complicit in grading the card or simply incompetent?

PSA claims not to grade sheet cut cards; however does PSA admit that it has graded sheet cut cards it did not properly detect were sheet cut? Is PSA aware that people cut sheet cut cards and then attempt to disguise them as not sheet cut prior to submission?

Is PSA aware that since the market increased for PSA cards, more card doctors inherently submitted cards to PSA?

Is PSA aware of the rumors that famous people and key industry names have greater success in bumping PSA cards on review? Has a statistical study ever been done to prove or disprove this? If true, how is it that the original owner of the card missed out on what PSA deemed the proper grade originally?

Is PSA aware of the discussion that the PSA/DNA autograph service has struggled to authenticate even items that were signed in person now that Steve Grad is no longer with PSA? How does PSA respond to claims that the service has fallen off significantly and merely lives off of the brand name?

Why did David Hall depart Collectors Universe? It seems odd that someone who started a company would be forced out without any public reason provided.

Why does PSA not make a case that cannot be compromised? Is this a financial decision or the desire to continue with the same look of card cases/flips?

Since PSA is part of a public company, does it feel it is appropriate to disclose the above information by answering these questions?

I agree with all of these questions, but isn't this thread, and most cards in it, about BGS trimmed copies? Should these questions not be answered by BGS (those not specific to PSA?).

The obvious next step is that the industry NEEDS a technological advancement in card grading and authentication. How this can be operationalized, we will leave that to the industrial and techno engineers wanting to take over the marketshare in this space and make the millions. But, there is absolutely a need.

[Deadshot]

I think the problem is that the people who stand to benefit the most from changes in procedures with TPAs are also the people that currently benefit the most from their subjectivity.

Guys like BNC talk quite a bit about how bumping is "the reality of the hobby," but they haven't used their influence in a way that could help break this trend. Well, not proactively at least. Their missteps could help bring it about after all.

[MeteoriteGuy]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

I agree with all of these questions, but isn't this thread, and most cards in it, about BGS trimmed copies? Should these questions not be answered by BGS (those not specific to PSA?).

The obvious next step is that the industry NEEDS a technological advancement in card grading and authentication. How this can be operationalized, we will leave that to the industrial and techno engineers wanting to take over the marketshare in this space and make the millions. But, there is absolutely a need.

It would be best if both went on the record on various related issues. However, it is impossible to ignore that over 95% of the graded cards in this thread, are BGS, which Jmania appears to have somehow done. So much so that Jmania's opinion has likely shown to be bias, at best.

I also imagine this is something that should get its own thread.

[Deadshot]

Originally Posted by MeteoriteGuy

I also imagine this is something that should get its own thread.

That's not a bad idea. I think there's a lot of good conversation about grading that's probably getting buried in this thread. Who's going to start this thread?

[6celtics33]

Just because the examples in this thread are leaning toward BGS does not mean psa doesn't do the same exact thing. We can find examples of that too if you'd like. I think the questions are relevant given that PSA's stature in the hobby is the supposed "leader" of the industry. Never get cheated is their slogan right?

Maybe they need to lead the way on this and actually lead instead of just being a paper champion.

[6celtics33]

And to be clear, I prefer BGS for various reasons so does my bias mean I know less? I've also stated I believe they need to do better, I'm on board with that. But to suggest one is better at spotting trimming based on what I've seen in my 15 years of dealing with graded cards is extremely biased and laughable. They both are bad at it.

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Just because the examples in this thread are leaning toward BGS does not mean psa doesn't do the same exact thing. We can find examples of that too if you'd like. I think the questions are relevant given that PSA's stature in the hobby is the supposed "leader" of the industry. Never get cheated is their slogan right?

Maybe they need to lead the way on this and actually lead instead of just being a paper champion.

Nobody is denying any of this anywhere in the thread to my knowledge.

The point is in addition to PSA answering the tough questions, can BGS answer them too? An equal outcry should be directed towards them no? Especially when the majority of the cards shown in this very thread are BGS.

[Doublexthebeast]

I read the comments about "bumping" a card and think it depends on what you do to get the bump. I have sent cards in before for a bump but under very specific circumstances.

My PSA 10 Grant Hill Dunk N Go Nuts used to be a BGS 9. I could clearly see that there was a fingerprint on the acetate surface. It had sub grades of centering 10, edges 9.5, corners 10, and the surface was 8 or 8.5. I cracked it and took 5 seconds to wipe off the fingerprint. I sent it in and got a 10.

So, that seems to be fine in my opinion. However, trimming or altering a card is entirely different. Is cleaning the surface to get a bump a bad thing?

[duron]

Originally Posted by Doublexthebeast

So, that seems to be fine in my opinion. However, trimming or altering a card is entirely different. Is cleaning the surface to get a bump a bad thing?

Nope, completely reasonable, and I'll quote 6celtics33 again because it's the most accurate phrasing that I've seen on the forums regarding this topic:

"Getting fingerprints or smudges or lint off is external to the card, yes get those off. Scratches however are damage to the card. Correcting structural damage seems more like altering than just wiping crap off."

Now, as much as certain people want to believe "restoration" in cards is ok and not equivalent to alteration, I'm then forced to believe with the same conviction that they have either profited directly or indirectly for such a "service," or are planning to in the future. I thank them for flagging themselves.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

Nobody is denying any of this anywhere in the thread to my knowledge.

The point is in addition to PSA answering the tough questions, can BGS answer them too? An equal outcry should be directed towards them no? Especially when the majority of the cards shown in this very thread are BGS.

I think they both should. We all have our biases based on how we’ve interacted with each company and our personal experiences. But this is a problem that’s bigger than any one of our anecdotal situations.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by duron

Nope, completely reasonable, and I'll quote 6celtics33 again because it's the most accurate phrasing that I've seen on the forums regarding this topic:

"Getting fingerprints or smudges or lint off is external to the card, yes get those off. Scratches however are damage to the card. Correcting structural damage seems more like altering than just wiping crap off."

Now, as much as certain people want to believe "restoration" in cards is ok and not equivalent to alteration, I'm then forced to believe with the same conviction that they have either profited directly or indirectly for such a "service," or are planning to in the future. I thank them for flagging themselves.

Thanks Duron. I was blown away that that wasn’t common sense in that thread.

[minnesotachill]

If you are a valued customer of BGS and BGS wants to continue to keep you as a customer, they will give you grade bumps.

Me- I send in 10-20 cards to BGS in a year.

I'm a nobody to them. Getting business from me means squat to them.

I send in 10 high end cards I'm looking for a bump on. All real nice, all well deserving. Maybe the last grader was a little tough on centering. They all come back, and none of them get bumped. Obviously I'm not happy. They won't miss my business in the future.


Now we got a guy named Eric

BGS knows Eric well. Been grading cards with Eric for as long as anyone can remember. He submits quite the number of high end cards. We love Eric's business and would not want to do anything to sour our relationship.

Eric sends in 10 high cards. Many of these cards look familiar as they may have been submitted for bumping before. Eric paid $500 for this order. Sure as heck won't be sending these back to a valued customer without at least one sub bump and BGS definitely won't be losing this guys business.


Eric gets package back from BGS. Opens it up to find a BGS 10 Kawh Prizm Silver that was bumped from a 9.5 with two 10 subs.

And wait, what's this???... the Curry NT RPA got a .5 bump on the centering, now making it a quad 9.5.

That card is out the door to PSA now for a crossover! Comes back a week later as a PSA 10! Eric just made $10,000


Eric can't wait to send BGS the next order for bumping.

[The Finest]

Originally Posted by minnesotachill

If you are a valued customer of BGS and BGS wants to continue to keep you as a customer, they will give you grade bumps.

Me- I send in 10-20 cards to BGS in a year.

I'm a nobody to them. Getting business from me means squat to them.

I send in 10 high end cards I'm looking for a bump on. All real nice, all well deserving. Maybe the last grader was a little tough on centering. They all come back, and none of them get bumped. Obviously I'm not happy. They won't miss my business in the future.


Now we got a guy named Eric


BGS knows Eric well. Been grading cards with Eric for as long as anyone can remember. He submits quite the number of high end cards. We love Eric's business and would not want to do anything to sour our relationship.

Eric sends in 10 high cards. Many of these cards look familiar as they may have been submitted for bumping before. Eric paid $500 for this order. Sure as heck won't be sending these back to a valued customer without at least one sub bump and BGS definitely won't be losing this guys business.


Eric gets package back from BGS. Opens it up to find a BGS 10 Kawh Prizm Silver that was bumped from a 9.5 with two 10 subs.

And wait, what's this???... the Curry NT RPA got a .5 bump on the centering, now making it a quad 9.5.

That card is out the door to PSA now for a crossover! Comes back a week later as a PSA 10! Eric just made $10,000


Eric can't wait to send BGS the next order for bumping.

I really don't see anything wrong with this exact scenario given. Edit- (Except on BGS's part)