Blowout Fantasy Football League...where you at?

[Jackg1980]

Also if you trade your keeper pick, then you give up the round below it.

[Falcons_Fan]

Originally Posted by Jackg1980

There can be a solution other then not allowing it at all. Maybe start with not allowing a top 4 rounds to be traded and allowing a limited number of future draft pick trades. And to fix the other problem of someone dumping future draft picks to boast their current team, only to abandon it, how about we send in our next years entry now for insurance. Or send a 25 check or 25$ PayPal gift to robb. This way if the team is abandon it will be easy to find a replacement given their entry is paid for.

I am obviously on board with Jack since I was part of the trade. I can understand the concerns, but I think there could be some sort of middle ground we could all agree to. Jack and I have both been with the league from the beginning and we both plan on being in the league going forward. I actually didn't realize this was the first time someone had tried to trade draft picks. I thought the trade we came up with was pretty fair for both of us.

I am good with what Jack is suggesting above or some other alternative. I am also for raising the number of keepers from 1, but that should probably be in another discussion. Does anyone else have an opinion on this?

[addicted36]

Originally Posted by Falcons_Fan

I am obviously on board with Jack since I was part of the trade. I can understand the concerns, but I think there could be some sort of middle ground we could all agree to. Jack and I have both been with the league from the beginning and we both plan on being in the league going forward. I actually didn't realize this was the first time someone had tried to trade draft picks. I thought the trade we came up with was pretty fair for both of us.

I am good with what Jack is suggesting above or some other alternative. I am also for raising the number of keepers from 1, but that should probably be in another discussion. Does anyone else have an opinion on this?

You guys have been riders since day one and that is the only reason I didn't immediately jump in here bitching about collusion. I'm shooting straight so hope I am not ruffling too many feathers with my honesty. When I saw that I did think collusion, but I don't now. It took me a little while to get there but I don't think so now.

I know this post is long as hell but I think its good to show what this trade is and why it's not collusion to me

Side one
Brandon Marshall, Alfred Blue, 12th round pick, 15th round pick

for

Side two
Benny Cunningham, 5th round pick


and no it's not lost on me that this went down a day after Foster went down injury. It does seem one sided.

So looking at it further....

NFL Draft Trade chart
Draft Countdown - Trade Value Chart


5th round pick would in a 12 team league be anywhere between picks 61 and 72 and would translate to 292 all the way down to 230 points for that pick going by the adopted chart

And a round 12 pick for a 12 team league would actually be pick 144 to 156 in the same chart and carries a value range of 34 down to 29 points. A round 15 pick in a 12 team league would translate to a 180 down to 192 picks and they carry a value of 19.4 down to 14.6 points.

So for the picks

Side one is at 292-230 with an average being worth 261 points

Side two is at 34 to 29 and 19.4 to 14.6 with both averages being worth 48.5 points

261 < 48.5 by a large margin. Now the expected value here with Benny Cunningham the rest of the season is nothing. The latest report on Rotoworld says this about him

"Cunningham played second fiddle to clear starter Tre Mason. He sprinkled in on passing downs, and had one series to himself as the lead back. That usage will likely continue the rest of the season. He does not need to be owned in 10- and 12- team leagues. Nov 2 - 7:42 PM"

Alfred Blue has value, Brandon Marshall has value as well. I hope my long winded wall of text explains why at first glance I am thinking collusion.

But it's not. Here's why....

Blue has minimal flex potential and handcuff value for Arian Foster owner but overall will not be a starter. He is nice as a just in case kinda guy but honestly he's nothing special. Blue for Mason is not the same as if Blue was the named rest of year starter.

On the other hand Brandon Marshall has starting value but so does the 5th round pick. How much value does Marshall actually have?

2014 NFL Player Receiving Stats - National Football League - ESPN

He is a big name, big body, and well respected player. However he is ranked 58th in the league in receiving yards right now. He is playing right now worse then your typical 5th rounder, some upside but serious question marks about this player to me. I would place drafting him probably lower then 5th round next year as Alshon is ranked 18th in the league in that category now and Marshall is a head case although I love him you never know what you will get with him.

It's a fair trade, took me a while to figure out why that is a fair trade but it is. No one is dumping, no one is colluding, it's fair and respectable. I wanted to post this so people here can see how and why this is fair.



Now the problem here is this to me. Side 1 has one less draft pick then his 15 allowed and side two has one more pick then allowed. The draft is 15 rounds. This trade leaves side 1 with these draft picks

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14

And now only has 14 Picks in the draft. Not sure if that's a terrible thing or not but it's okay and not breaking any rules

But side 2 of this is breaking the rules. He now has these picks in these rounds

1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 12, 13, 14, 15, 15

Which means side 2 now has 16 picks in the draft and that's one to many

We shouldn't expand the draft just for a single trade to go through. If anyone trades draft picks that number allowed has to be in consideration. The easiest thing to do here is dock side 2 a 15th round pick. That puts him back within the rules, the trade still makes sense on it's face even if he loses that 15th round pick, and we keep the integrity of the league in place.

Now what we could also do and I am in favor of this is expand the number of rounds in the draft. If we expanded it to say 17 rounds then I would be happier and nothing would have to be surrendered but I don't know if anyone else wants to do that.

[Jackg1980]

Originally Posted by addicted36

You guys have been riders since day one and that is the only reason I didn't immediately jump in here bitching about collusion. I'm shooting straight so hope I am not ruffling too many feathers with my honesty. When I saw that I did think collusion, but I don't now. It took me a little while to get there but I don't think so now.

I know this post is long as hell but I think its good to show what this trade is and why it's not collusion to me

Side one
Brandon Marshall, Alfred Blue, 12th round pick, 15th round pick

for

Side two
Benny Cunningham, 5th round pick


and no it's not lost on me that this went down a day after Foster went down injury. It does seem one sided.

So looking at it further....

NFL Draft Trade chart
Draft Countdown - Trade Value Chart


5th round pick would in a 12 team league be anywhere between picks 61 and 72 and would translate to 292 all the way down to 230 points for that pick going by the adopted chart

And a round 12 pick for a 12 team league would actually be pick 144 to 156 in the same chart and carries a value range of 34 down to 29 points. A round 15 pick in a 12 team league would translate to a 180 down to 192 picks and they carry a value of 19.4 down to 14.6 points.

So for the picks

Side one is at 292-230 with an average being worth 261 points

Side two is at 34 to 29 and 19.4 to 14.6 with both averages being worth 48.5 points

261 < 48.5 by a large margin. Now the expected value here with Benny Cunningham the rest of the season is nothing. The latest report on Rotoworld says this about him

"Cunningham played second fiddle to clear starter Tre Mason. He sprinkled in on passing downs, and had one series to himself as the lead back. That usage will likely continue the rest of the season. He does not need to be owned in 10- and 12- team leagues. Nov 2 - 7:42 PM"

Alfred Blue has value, Brandon Marshall has value as well. I hope my long winded wall of text explains why at first glance I am thinking collusion.

But it's not. Here's why....

Blue has minimal flex potential and handcuff value for Arian Foster owner but overall will not be a starter. He is nice as a just in case kinda guy but honestly he's nothing special. Blue for Mason is not the same as if Blue was the named rest of year starter.

On the other hand Brandon Marshall has starting value but so does the 5th round pick. How much value does Marshall actually have?

2014 NFL Player Receiving Stats - National Football League - ESPN

He is a big name, big body, and well respected player. However he is ranked 58th in the league in receiving yards right now. He is playing right now worse then your typical 5th rounder, some upside but serious question marks about this player to me. I would place drafting him probably lower then 5th round next year as Alshon is ranked 18th in the league in that category now and Marshall is a head case although I love him you never know what you will get with him.

It's a fair trade, took me a while to figure out why that is a fair trade but it is. No one is dumping, no one is colluding, it's fair and respectable. I wanted to post this so people here can see how and why this is fair.



Now the problem here is this to me. Side 1 has one less draft pick then his 15 allowed and side two has one more pick then allowed. The draft is 15 rounds. This trade leaves side 1 with these draft picks

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14

And now only has 14 Picks in the draft. Not sure if that's a terrible thing or not but it's okay and not breaking any rules

But side 2 of this is breaking the rules. He now has these picks in these rounds

1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 12, 13, 14, 15, 15

Which means side 2 now has 16 picks in the draft and that's one to many

We shouldn't expand the draft just for a single trade to go through. If anyone trades draft picks that number allowed has to be in consideration. The easiest thing to do here is dock side 2 a 15th round pick. That puts him back within the rules, the trade still makes sense on it's face even if he loses that 15th round pick, and we keep the integrity of the league in place.

Now what we could also do and I am in favor of this is expand the number of rounds in the draft. If we expanded it to say 17 rounds then I would be happier and nothing would have to be surrendered but I don't know if anyone else wants to do that.

It is the same number of draft picks. I get 5th and 10th, he gets 12th and 15th. Also it was made before Foster got hurt.

[addicted36]

Originally Posted by Jackg1980

It is the same number of draft picks. I get 5th and 10th, he gets 12th and 15th.

Oh in that case then there is no problem with this trade that I can see. I didn't know you got a 10th as well. That's fine then. In fact I think you crushed that trade now. Sorry FF just being honest.

If this was your first year in the league I would be worried but you guys aren't going anywhere next year. I think its fine now

[Jackg1980]

Has anyone notice I have a first round curse? Every freaking year!

[addicted36]

Originally Posted by Jackg1980

Has anyone notice I have a first round curse? Every freaking year!

Figure out what round you do the best, then tell me and I will trade you my pick that round for your first and together we will break your curse

[Devi8or]

Originally Posted by addicted36

Oh in that case then there is no problem with this trade that I can see. I didn't know you got a 10th as well. That's fine then. In fact I think you crushed that trade now. Sorry FF just being honest.

If this was your first year in the league I would be worried but you guys aren't going anywhere next year. I think its fine now

I agree that I don't think they are going anywhere next year, but it's not necessarily about them in the long haul. It's about everyone in the league. There is no guarantee that someone else is coming back. We lost 2-3 players after last season, if the same happens again it'll be hard to convince someone to take on a team.

We can't make a rule based on knowing 2 people will be back, we need to make a rule based on the whole league, not individuals. There is no guarantee that those 2 will even be back. Sure they've been here from the start, but this is BO, how often has someone fallen off the grid. I've seen people who have been here for years, quit cards, lose jobs, get divorced.

Personally I think it's a mistake to allow draft pick trades, we're gonna take something that's not broken and break it by trying to flex it too much. The league is running fine as it is, no need to break structure IMO

This isn't directed at you Alex, yours was just the post I quoted

[Falcons_Fan]

Originally Posted by addicted36

Oh in that case then there is no problem with this trade that I can see. I didn't know you got a 10th as well. That's fine then. In fact I think you crushed that trade now. Sorry FF just being honest.

If this was your first year in the league I would be worried but you guys aren't going anywhere next year. I think its fine now

I tried to haggle with Jack some on picks, but he wouldn't budge much. I really wasn't sure how to value draft picks for next year, so maybe I gave a way a little too much. I am glad you are on board with the trade.

[Jackg1980]

Originally Posted by Devi8or

I agree that I don't think they are going anywhere next year, but it's not necessarily about them in the long haul. It's about everyone in the league. There is no guarantee that someone else is coming back. We lost 2-3 players after last season, if the same happens again it'll be hard to convince someone to take on a team.

We can't make a rule based on knowing 2 people will be back, we need to make a rule based on the whole league, not individuals. There is no guarantee that those 2 will even be back. Sure they've been here from the start, but this is BO, how often has someone fallen off the grid. I've seen people who have been here for years, quit cards, lose jobs, get divorced.

Personally I think it's a mistake to allow draft pick trades, we're gonna take something that's not broken and break it by trying to flex it too much. The league is running fine as it is, no need to break structure IMO

This isn't directed at you Alex, yours was just the post I quoted

This is the first year as a keeper league. Trading draft picks is part of the fun and adds a level of competitiveness. IMO it's makes it better. Plus how are we going to break the league base on assumption? I added a solution to the problem of someone abandoning their team. I will be glad to send robb money, a card or something to assure my entry is paid for for next year.

[addicted36]

Originally Posted by Devi8or

I agree that I don't think they are going anywhere next year, but it's not necessarily about them in the long haul. It's about everyone in the league. There is no guarantee that someone else is coming back. We lost 2-3 players after last season, if the same happens again it'll be hard to convince someone to take on a team.

We can't make a rule based on knowing 2 people will be back, we need to make a rule based on the whole league, not individuals. There is no guarantee that those 2 will even be back. Sure they've been here from the start, but this is BO, how often has someone fallen off the grid. I've seen people who have been here for years, quit cards, lose jobs, get divorced.

Personally I think it's a mistake to allow draft pick trades, we're gonna take something that's not broken and break it by trying to flex it too much. The league is running fine as it is, no need to break structure IMO

This isn't directed at you Alex, yours was just the post I quoted

What if we have a rule that says in order to trade draft picks everyone has to do essentially what I did here with that trade. Do the trade in public, explain the trade, and leave it up to us to discuss? Nothing behind the scenes about trading picks allowed. Player for player trades continue as normal. That way if any of us objects or is worried about a person trading picks we know about it ahead of time.

I do see what you mean about if someone drops off the face of the planet so another idea is that no picks under round 5 are ever traded, rounds 1-4 are not able to be traded. If we are recruiting next year at least we know we wouldn't be in a situation where someone doesn't have a 1-2-3-4 pick right?

[Devi8or]

Originally Posted by Jackg1980

This is the first year as a keeper league. Trading draft picks is part of the fun and adds a level of competitiveness. IMO it's makes it better. Plus how are we going to break the league base on assumption? I added a solution to the problem of someone abandoning their team. I will be glad to send robb money, a card or something to assure my entry is paid for for next year.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of being able to trade picks, but it's gonna cause a lot more headache then you would think. Here's an interesting scenario for reference.

Say I have a 8th round drafted player (this year) that is keeper worthy. I make a trade (this year) that involves my future 7th round pick. I end up quitting cards or just disappearing after this year. Does that mean the person who assumes my spot has to give up a 6th rounder to keep the 8th round keeper? So basically a new person would go into the season missing a 6th and a 7th?

I have no beef with the actual trade in terms of value, it's about the structure that could potentially go really bad.

Just because you're assuring your entry into next year, there is no guarantee that everyone else will be back.

At the end of the day, it's really up to you guys, I'm stating my opinion, which may be in the minority. if we decide to allow draft trades, then I'll go with it

Originally Posted by addicted36

What if we have a rule that says in order to trade draft picks everyone has to do essentially what I did here with that trade. Do the trade in public, explain the trade, and leave it up to us to discuss? Nothing behind the scenes about trading picks allowed. Player for player trades continue as normal. That way if any of us objects or is worried about a person trading picks we know about it ahead of time.

I do see what you mean about if someone drops off the face of the planet so another idea is that no picks under round 5 are ever traded, rounds 1-4 are not able to be traded. If we are recruiting next year at least we know we wouldn't be in a situation where someone doesn't have a 1-2-3-4 pick right?

It's not about making sure the trade is fair in this case, it's about stability in the league. I have no objections to the propsed trade in terms of value, I do in terms of allowing the picks to be swapped.

There is absolutely no way to guarantee that we have 100% of us back next year. Getting someone to join a eam with crappy keepers is hard enough on it's own. I'll bet that if we allow keepers and draft pick trades that we'll be re-drafting everything within the next few years

But like I said, if the majority wants it, I'll go along with it

[Jackg1980]

Originally Posted by Devi8or

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of being able to trade picks, but it's gonna cause a lot more headache then you would think. Here's an interesting scenario for reference.

Say I have a 8th round drafted player (this year) that is keeper worthy. I make a trade (this year) that involves my future 7th round pick. I end up quitting cards or just disappearing after this year. Does that mean the person who assumes my spot has to give up a 6th rounder to keep the 8th round keeper? So basically a new person would go into the season missing a 6th and a 7th?

I have no beef with the actual trade in terms of value, it's about the structure that could potentially go really bad.

Just because you're assuring your entry into next year, there is no guarantee that everyone else will be back.

At the end of the day, it's really up to you guys, I'm stating my opinion, which may be in the minority. if we decide to allow draft trades, then I'll go with it

The trades have to be of equal picks. It actually does not let you trade otherwise. So yes, in your sceneio he will have to give up the 6th rd pick and (7th rd pick he traded) to keep his eight rd keeper, but he will have an additional pick elsewhere. And if we make it that one has to assure their entry next year, I doubt it will be hard to find someone to take over a team with the entry already paid for.

[tolrobb]

Personally, I agree with everyone, as strange as that may sound. But as I told Brent privately, I am trying to look at things from the perspective of the league, and no individual players in the league. I do not have a problem with trading draft picks....as long as there are players with at least somewhat equal value changing teams as well.

For example, I recently sent Hixson this offer:

Marques Colston
4th Round Pick 2015
for
Frank Gore
6th Round Pick 2015

I ended up cancelling the trade because of the situation we have found ourselves in currently, but this is more along the lines of what I would hope to see in trades. Regarding the trade in question, that deal helps Jack's team absolutely zero this season.

As much as we call ourselves a keeper league, we are about as close to a redraft league as one can possibly come without being called a redraft league. We have the option of keeping only one player, which is not mandatory, and you are penalized a draft choice if you keep that player.

This type of trade I would have zero problem with if this were a Dynasty league, but it's not.....yet...who knows what ideas Alex is going to bring to the table after the season.

Im still in the veto camp, but we need to hear from at least 2/3rds of the league before deciding anything.

[Jackg1980]

Originally Posted by tolrobb

Personally, I agree with everyone, as strange as that may sound. But as I told Brent privately, I am trying to look at things from the perspective of the league, and no individual players in the league. I do not have a problem with trading draft picks....as long as there are players with at least somewhat equal value changing teams as well.

For example, I recently sent Hixson this offer:

Marques Colston
4th Round Pick 2015
for
Frank Gore
6th Round Pick 2015

I ended up cancelling the trade because of the situation we have found ourselves in currently, but this is more along the lines of what I would hope to see in trades. Regarding the trade in question, that deal helps Jack's team absolutely zero this season.

As much as we call ourselves a keeper league, we are about as close to a redraft league as one can possibly come without being called a redraft league. We have the option of keeping only one player, which is not mandatory, and you are penalized a draft choice if you keep that player.

This type of trade I would have zero problem with if this were a Dynasty league, but it's not.....yet...who knows what ideas Alex is going to bring to the table after the season.

Im still in the veto camp, but we need to hear from at least 2/3rds of the league before deciding anything.

Dynasty league vote?

[addicted36]

One idea I have which I think should come to vote is number of rounds in the draft. I say make it bigger! More rounds of the draft for me please

[yankeesfan24]

personally I think the trades should be somewhat fair if picks are being dealt. You shouldn't be able to tank for a season like the NBA and have a super team next year

[Jackg1980]

Originally Posted by yankeesfan24

personally I think the trades should be somewhat fair if picks are being dealt. You shouldn't be able to tank for a season like the NBA and have a super team next year

Who is tanking? Marshall is averaging 7.16 points a game for the past 6 games.

For the past four games he is the #50th ranked WR, 8 guys on the waiver are currently ranked higher then Marshall for the past for games.

Also my solution that I already posted would fix that.

[Highroller]

Doesn't matter to me either way. I would have accepted that trade for a pick since my season is a bust.

[Jackg1980]

i think we need limits also. Like no picks before round 4 or 5 and only limit of 3-4 future picks.

[addicted36]

Originally Posted by Jackg1980

i think we need limits also. Like no picks before round 4 or 5 and only limit of 3-4 future picks.

I would say no swapping picks before the 5th round during the season, after the season you can swap what ever you want

[addicted36]

Originally Posted by Highroller

Doesn't matter to me either way. I would have accepted that trade for a pick since my season is a bust.

Mine too but its all good, some you win last year and some you lose the next year and then when that happens you win the next year

Calling my shot now. Next year I win again!

[carl2001]

What was our rules on keepes and draft picks again? Im strategzing for next year.

[tolrobb]

Originally Posted by carl2001

What was our rules on keepes and draft picks again? Im strategzing for next year.

all the rules are in the first post of this thread.

it looks like your squad has turned it around, about to be 5-5 and in the thick of the playoff picture.

[carl2001]

Nope i lost today. Eagles D killed me.