1984 STAR Jordan

[4barrel]

Originally Posted by CommomSensei88

How can the star 101 be a main rookie when it was only in team bags purchased in back of magazines or in team only specific to one's city they lived at in those card shops sitting next to the minor league baseball cards that resembled each other, no one at the time took them seriously and they were not in retail packs for everyone to know about them. If you lived in New York or Texas, you probably never seen a Chicago team bag set plus how many really knew where or how to order them, most kids had no idea about those star cards. I understand the rarity of them being worth more. Since the 1986 fleer release mostly everyone had thought of that set as the main rookie cards because of availability and in retail packs.

Correct!

[Gary]

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

That's correct. Again, there's no verifiable reason the print run was any higher than 3k. In fact, no one has to believe that sale sheet is real; however, you'd have to explain away these numbers:

Beckett's total population is currently 1,262 (which includes many regrades), and based on their records, they've been grading them for 17 years (2009).

PSA has been grading them for about 4 years now, and the total PSA pop is 568, with most likely 95% of the PSA pop coming from BGS cases.

While 3k were probably printed, I'm guesstimating there are fewer than 2k worldwide.

As far as the date on the flip, PSA grades them as 1984 Star (early flips say 1985 Star), which is consistent with historical precedent in the hobby. For example, 2012 Prizm Football was released in Jan. of 2013, but it's still identified as 2012 Prizm. There are thousands of other examples of this.

BGS identifies them as 1984-85 Star, which is fine, but PSA has never done that, even though the basketball and hockey seasons overlap into the next year.

Are you basing the 2k number on thinking most every 101 card has been graded?i ask because i have 2 both in sealed team bags 1 graded by GAI the other not graded (sealed bag)there are many others in BGS sealed bags and GAI bags......but i would agree most of the PSA graded 101's came out of BGS slabs......further clouding the pop count issue.

As a side note where did you find that pre order sheet?online somewhere or do you have it?also not questioning if the pre order sheet is real i know they had them,Star also ran ads in i believe SCD back then also....my question wasn't real or not it was more of accuracy, based on there is clearly a set est number that didn't pan out its not unreasonable to think other info on the sheet could be off also.

As far as using BGS/PSA pop numbers as a means to determine print run goes thats a useless endeavor,Even if we had the pop numbers for GAI bags,GAI graded cards,BGS graded bags plus the BGS/PSA numbers we do have......who's to say any 1 card isn't included in every number.How many bags were GAI graded then sent off to BGS for bag grading only to be opened and sent to BGS for card grading then cracked to to send to PSA.....and maybe cracked again for a bad PSA grade and re sent to BGS.again.(if you followed all that thanks for playing) and forget ungraded sealed team bags who knows how many of those still are out there.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by JWBlue

I had no idea about this...



Are the Type II reprints distinguishable for the original?


Has an unopened bag ever surfaced?

Yes there are type 2 bags.......shop at home sets are NOT part of the type 2 problem........type 2 bags are 85/86 only and not technically counterfeits....they were printed in the same shops the other 85/86 bags were printed in using the real star plates.....they are more of an unauthorized printing.the colors of type 2's are off from the lic stuff and easy to spot.....also the normal color bleed on to the backs is absent from the type 2's...there's alot more to the type 2 thing the teams affected....the white border sets,if your interested there is info out there to do a deep dive no point in me writing a book here about it.

Shop at home sets were not a reproduction of any of the original cards,and not sold in the standard poly bags.(with the exception of the bulls 84/85 team however no red were made for shop at home only new white and black were printed) though they were made by bob levin the star owner using real star plates they were printed in the mid 90's ......97 iirc and back dated to show 84 on the cards under the guise of old un released stock.......so they are not fake or counterfeit either just unlic.......basically a scam by bob levin to cash in.....he paid dearly for his trickery.again more to this than what i said and the info is out there for anyone to read if your interested.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by CommomSensei88

How can the star 101 be a main rookie when it was only in team bags purchased in back of magazines or in team only specific to one's city they lived at in those card shops sitting next to the minor league baseball cards that resembled each other, no one at the time took them seriously and they were not in retail packs for everyone to know about them. If you lived in New York or Texas, you probably never seen a Chicago team bag set plus how many really knew where or how to order them, most kids had no idea about those star cards. I understand the rarity of them being worth more. Since the 1986 fleer release mostly everyone had thought of that set as the main rookie cards because of availability and in retail packs.

Thats not really the way it happened....Star had master dealers across the country the bags were not region specific.(with the exception of the the 85 Crunch n Munch and 84 Larry Bird bags those were east coast only)..i was lucky enough to live close to the east coast master dealer (don gilbert) was able to get 2 of every bag from the same place....but i get your general point and agree star wasn't a mass produced product available in wax pack form.Main RC thats a opinion,most will answer fleer as the hobby decided years ago Star was XRC........not many are going to argue that point.well maybe one guy will.

[2010GBPackers]

Originally Posted by CommomSensei88

How can the star 101 be a main rookie when it was only in team bags purchased in back of magazines or in team only specific to one's city they lived at in those card shops sitting next to the minor league baseball cards that resembled each other, no one at the time took them seriously and they were not in retail packs for everyone to know about them. If you lived in New York or Texas, you probably never seen a Chicago team bag set plus how many really knew where or how to order them, most kids had no idea about those star cards. I understand the rarity of them being worth more. Since the 1986 fleer release mostly everyone had thought of that set as the main rookie cards because of availability and in retail packs.

I mean, I get the thought exercise here, but if you apply it across the board, the argument falls apart. Ex. - Is the 1951 Bowman not Mantle/Mays' rookie card because you couldn't get it if you lived in rural New Mexico in the 1950's? The Star cards were licensed, came out during his rookie year - it's his rookie.

[CommomSensei88]

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

I mean, I get the thought exercise here, but if you apply it across the board, the argument falls apart. Ex. - Is the 1951 Bowman not Mantle/Mays' rookie card because you couldn't get it if you lived in rural New Mexico in the 1950's? The Star cards were licensed, came out during his rookie year - it's his rookie.

The Mantle and Mays Rookies in the 1951 Bowman set were available in packs for everyone most all kids new about them and had a chance to get them.
The Star bagged sets were not and were thought at the time the same as novelty sets were thought of no one cared or even knew what they were, hidden in the back of a magazine to order and most shop owners only ordered city team specific sets where they lived because they were that unpopular. Topps, Donruss and Fleer were the big three at the time.Only owners of the Star cards believe it's a main rookie because they were not around back then to even know what happened.

[CommomSensei88]

Originally Posted by Gary

Thats not really the way it happened....Star had master dealers across the country the bags were not region specific.(with the exception of the the 85 Crunch n Munch and 84 Larry Bird bags those were east coast only)..i was lucky enough to live close to the east coast master dealer (don gilbert) was able to get 2 of every bag from the same place....but i get your general point and agree star wasn't a mass produced product available in wax pack form.Main RC thats a opinion,most will answer fleer as the hobby decided years ago Star was XRC........not many are going to argue that point.well maybe one guy will.

I was meaning most card shop owners only ordered team specific to the area they lived because the star cards were that unpopular. There was no internet back then to advertise and not everyone knew how to purchase them.

[2010GBPackers]

Originally Posted by CommomSensei88

The Mantle and Mays Rookies in the 1951 Bowman set were available in packs for everyone most all kids new about them and had a chance to get them.
The Star bagged sets were not and were thought at the time the same as novelty sets were thought of no one cared or even knew what they were, hidden in the back of a magazine to order and most shop owners only ordered city team specific sets where they lived because they were that unpopular. Topps, Donruss and Fleer were the big three at the time.Only owners of the Star cards believe it's a main rookie because they were not around back then to even know what happened.

You can't walk into a hobby shop and buy Flawless or National Treasures, so are Flawless and NT RPAs XRCs?

[CommomSensei88]

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

You can't walk into a hobby shop and buy Flawless or National Treasures, so are Flawless and NT RPAs XRCs?

Different times back then there was no internet which has now taken over most shops, now you can get those online.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by CommomSensei88

I was meaning most card shop owners only ordered team specific to the area they lived because the star cards were that unpopular. There was no internet back then to advertise and not everyone knew how to purchase them.

no that wasn't an option.......they had to order sets in min quantity they couldn't "cherry pick teams" or at least thats the way i remember it.....if someone knows this not to be true please correct me.i might catch some heat by saying this but your correct they were unpopular at the time.....basketball was unpopular as a sport through the 70's and very early 80's until the magic/bird rivalry caught fire.most people forget the NBA games were on tape delay back then...and thats if it was shown at all.......it wasn't until the monthly Beckett that everyone wanted NBA cards.at that point the published print runs of star were general knowledge and jordan was jordan by that time and basketball card demand was huge.everyone wanted Star cards then.......same thing happened to 86/87/88 fleer nobody wanted the stuff at the time of release......i know thats hard to understand if you didn't see it for yourself.86 fleer had a print run of about 800k...it was so unpopular 87 fleer was cut in half.......88 was about 75% of the 86 print run.

a lcs friend of mine was a fleer dealer back then......we kind of worked out the print run based on how many cases a dealer could buy and the amount of dealers......so 800k is aprox but is within 100k either way..if your an unopened wax collector buy 87 and 88 wax boxes at some point they will explode in value.if your on more of a budget buy 89 fleer still a shorter print run and would have a huge demand if fleer had a robinson rc in the set........whatever you dont open it......the qc was awful and even at current prices of wax you will loose your shirt....buy it and put it away.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by CommomSensei88

The Mantle and Mays Rookies in the 1951 Bowman set were available in packs for everyone most all kids new about them and had a chance to get them.
The Star bagged sets were not and were thought at the time the same as novelty sets were thought of no one cared or even knew what they were, hidden in the back of a magazine to order and most shop owners only ordered city team specific sets where they lived because they were that unpopular. Topps, Donruss and Fleer were the big three at the time.Only owners of the Star cards believe it's a main rookie because they were not around back then to even know what happened.

I disagree on your opinion of Star both back then and now....... collected Star at the time of release,they were not considered a novelty item by anyone i ever talked to.and while i do think of the star cards as RC's i accept the hobby at large does not.and i was around "back then" im very ok with the XRC tag for Star.....the rc in XRC does stand for Rookie card after all.

[Donkaylove]

good talk and banter here. I enjoyed the details.

[CommomSensei88]

Originally Posted by Gary

I disagree on your opinion of Star both back then and now....... collected Star at the time of release,they were not considered a novelty item by anyone i ever talked to.and while i do think of the star cards as RC's i accept the hobby at large does not.and i was around "back then" im very ok with the XRC tag for Star.....the rc in XRC does stand for Rookie card after all.

I never heard anyone mention much about those Star cards or even consider them as rookies back then the talk was not even much about basketball cards but mostly baseball cards or football cards. When the 1986 fleer came out, I heard more about that set and the Jordan as his rookie. I have no agenda I'm just going by the vibe back then. the 1989 upper deck Griffey Jr card became all the talk along with 1986 fleer Jordan just never heard much about the Star card.I did not say they were a novelty they were thought of that at the time of release because they were in a team bag and looked cheap. There were minor league baseball cards at that time that seemed similar in bag sets if I remember correctly, there was so much different types of baseball cards back then stickers, send aways and larger cards so much to keep up with, just seemed the Star cards got lost in the mix because most considered Donruss, Fleer and Topps the only brand that mattered.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by CommomSensei88

I never heard anyone mention much about those Star cards or even consider them as rookies back then the talk was not even much about basketball cards but mostly baseball cards or football cards. When the 1986 fleer came out, I heard more about that set and the Jordan as his rookie. I have no agenda I'm just going by the vibe back then. the 1989 upper deck Griffey Jr card became all the talk along with 1986 fleer Jordan just never heard much about the Star card.I did not say they were a novelty they were thought of that at the time of release because they were in a team bag and looked cheap. There were minor league baseball cards at that time that seemed similar in bag sets if I remember correctly, there was so much different types of baseball cards back then stickers, send aways and larger cards so much to keep up with, just seemed the Star cards got lost in the mix because most considered Donruss, Fleer and Topps the only brand that mattered.

Yes absolutely,basketball was a second or third or maybe even 4th thought back then.....id agree in 86 when fleer came out the first card on peoples minds was the Donruss Canseco,when star jordan came out it was Donnie baseballs RC's card that was the rage basketball cards were an after thought,no argument there at all.

Maybe didn't articulate my point very well,there was zero "buzz about Star basketball in 83-86....the was zero buzz about 86-88 fleer at their release also........my point being it wasn't a "star" issue it was a Basketball card in general issue or more directly a "no Beckett" problem.hope that clears up my stance.

Quick story to show those that were not alive or collectors at the time....to show how unpopular basketball cards were.....Frst remember 80 and 81 topps were the last 2 years of basketball cards for topps they literally let the lic expire thats how bad it was.......in the early 80's i traded a 1974 topps Dave Winfield RC to a guy for a big box of basketball cards....he laughed call me crazy for taking the deal.....it turned out he gave almost complete sets from 57/58 topps,61/62 fleer a few 68 topps test.and damn near a complete set of 69/70 topps.........imagine that.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

You can't walk into a hobby shop and buy Flawless or National Treasures, so are Flawless and NT RPAs XRCs?

Strange take. Yes you can. All the big dawgs with direct accounts have brick & mortar stores as. Distributors WERE allocating them to smaller shops too until they got chopped down. Not so much Panini but with Fanatics it is a requirement to have a hobby shop to be allocated product unless you're already on THE preferred breaker list.

[2010GBPackers]

Originally Posted by CommomSensei88

I never heard anyone mention much about those Star cards or even consider them as rookies back then the talk was not even much about basketball cards but mostly baseball cards or football cards. When the 1986 fleer came out, I heard more about that set and the Jordan as his rookie. I have no agenda I'm just going by the vibe back then. the 1989 upper deck Griffey Jr card became all the talk along with 1986 fleer Jordan just never heard much about the Star card.I did not say they were a novelty they were thought of that at the time of release because they were in a team bag and looked cheap. There were minor league baseball cards at that time that seemed similar in bag sets if I remember correctly, there was so much different types of baseball cards back then stickers, send aways and larger cards so much to keep up with, just seemed the Star cards got lost in the mix because most considered Donruss, Fleer and Topps the only brand that mattered.

This is the entire point of the ridiculousness of the "XRC" on the Star Jordan.

Basketball was soooo unprofitable, the only way to distribute basketball cards in 1982-1986 was through the team bag model. Due to basketball's unpopularity at the time - this was the only way. So we can debate til the cows come home regarding the manner of distribution (which is the only reason for the XRC designation), but they were never going to be available like baseball cards.

Regardless of our disagreement, the hobby is now settling on the fact that the 1984 Star 101 is Jordan's true rookie card. The Fleer 57 will still be viewed favorably and hold incredible value, and there are only a few hold outs left. You should have seen the reaction 5-7 years ago when this topic came up. Almost everyone has accepted it now.

[Hellcat]

As much as you guys try to justify your 3rd year 57 card it will NEVER be his rookie! He has one and one only! Within a decade every copy will bring 100k minimum even in a altered state! Sell everything in your collection to aquire the 101 and thank me later! My track record speaks for itself why do you guys keep fighting it?!

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by Hellcat

As much as you guys try to justify your 3rd year 57 card it will NEVER be his rookie! He has one and one only! Within a decade every copy will bring 100k minimum even in a altered state! Sell everything in your collection to aquire the 101 and thank me later! My track record speaks for itself why do you guys keep fighting it?!

[CommomSensei88]

Originally Posted by Gary

Yes absolutely,basketball was a second or third or maybe even 4th thought back then.....id agree in 86 when fleer came out the first card on peoples minds was the Donruss Canseco,when star jordan came out it was Donnie baseballs RC's card that was the rage basketball cards were an after thought,no argument there at all.

Maybe didn't articulate my point very well,there was zero "buzz about Star basketball in 83-86....the was zero buzz about 86-88 fleer at their release also........my point being it wasn't a "star" issue it was a Basketball card in general issue or more directly a "no Beckett" problem.hope that clears up my stance.

Quick story to show those that were not alive or collectors at the time....to show how unpopular basketball cards were.....Frst remember 80 and 81 topps were the last 2 years of basketball cards for topps they literally let the lic expire thats how bad it was.......in the early 80's i traded a 1974 topps Dave Winfield RC to a guy for a big box of basketball cards....he laughed call me crazy for taking the deal.....it turned out he gave almost complete sets from 57/58 topps,61/62 fleer a few 68 topps test.and damn near a complete set of 69/70 topps.........imagine that.

One of the other reasons the Star Jordan card most likely has the XRC is the name itself, Star was like a knockoff brand and if the other big three brands came out with Basketball cards in team bags at the same time, those big three would have been accepted more than Star was at the time. The Fleer brand will always be more popular. The only reason those Star cards in that set are worth so much is due to rarity.

[Hellcat]

Originally Posted by CommomSensei88

One of the other reasons the Star Jordan card most likely has the XRC is the name itself, Star was like a knockoff brand and if the other big three brands came out with Basketball cards in team bags at the same time, those big three would have been accepted more than Star was at the time. The Fleer brand will always be more popular. The only reason those Star cards in that set are worth so much is due to rarity.

There is no XRC designated on the 101 it's simply his rookie. The Fleer if you want to shoehorn it that can be called a XRC since it's his first pack pulled card even though a 3rd year card. Novices have the 57 the pros the 101! I'm sorry you're probably new in the hobby do some research on the 101. The Star company had an NBA liscense the only one at the time who produced Jordans rookie not a knock off they were a legit brand at the time even though they didn't last long.

[PLB9eight]

Originally Posted by Hellcat

There is no XRC designated on the 101 it's simply his rookie. The Fleer if you want to shoehorn it that can be called a XRC since it's his first pack pulled card even though a 3rd year card. Novices have the 57 the pros the 101! I'm sorry you're probably new in the hobby do some research on the 101. The Star company had an NBA liscense the only one at the time who produced Jordans rookie not a knock off they were a legit brand at the time even though they didn't last long.

And the name calling again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gary]

Originally Posted by CommomSensei88

One of the other reasons the Star Jordan card most likely has the XRC is the name itself, Star was like a knockoff brand and if the other big three brands came out with Basketball cards in team bags at the same time, those big three would have been accepted more than Star was at the time. The Fleer brand will always be more popular. The only reason those Star cards in that set are worth so much is due to rarity.

Im going to disagree with your whole post on this one........Star was the only lic NBA cards from 83 to 86.....calling it a knockoff is silly,a knockoff is a phony copy of a original item.if you want to call Star a minor player when compared to topps/fleer ect that might be a better description.talking if's and such is irrelevant to the reality so its a moot point.as an example 89 fleer if it had a Robinson RC would be 3k a box instead of $700...fun to think about but nothing to do with reality.

The fleer cards have to be more popular they printed 800k of them to Star's few thousand......so again that point is moot....what i will say is if someone offered anyone the choice of a Star card and a Fleer card everyone is taking the Star card.the dollar value isn't even close never has been and never will be.there is a huge part of the hobby with penis envy over Star cards....they cant afford them even if they could find them,when the book is written the Star cards will always be the cards one who has cash will want.i get that hurts a lot of feelings but thats life.

same holds true for the 84 fleer update Rodger...that card will always be the more wanted card but not alot of collectors can afford that card in a high grade. same situation for 84 USFL cards they get pricey in high grade......

we will always have apart of Star collectors like hellcat that refuse what the hobby accepted a long time ago.....and we will always have the penis envy guys......ill let those fringe guys fight amongst themselves..........the other 90% of the hobby can just collect what they like and not worry about an X in a Beckett.

[CommomSensei88]

Originally Posted by Gary

Im going to disagree with your whole post on this one........Star was the only lic NBA cards from 83 to 86.....calling it a knockoff is silly,a knockoff is a phony copy of a original item.if you want to call Star a minor player when compared to topps/fleer ect that might be a better description.talking if's and such is irrelevant to the reality so its a moot point.as an example 89 fleer if it had a Robinson RC would be 3k a box instead of $700...fun to think about but nothing to do with reality.

The fleer cards have to be more popular they printed 800k of them to Star's few thousand......so again that point is moot....what i will say is if someone offered anyone the choice of a Star card and a Fleer card everyone is taking the Star card.the dollar value isn't even close never has been and never will be.there is a huge part of the hobby with penis envy over Star cards....they cant afford them even if they could find them,when the book is written the Star cards will always be the cards one who has cash will want.i get that hurts a lot of feelings but thats life.

same holds true for the 84 fleer update Rodger...that card will always be the more wanted card but not alot of collectors can afford that card in a high grade. same situation for 84 USFL cards they get pricey in high grade......

we will always have apart of Star collectors like hellcat that refuse what the hobby accepted a long time ago.....and we will always have the penis envy guys......ill let those fringe guys fight amongst themselves..........the other 90% of the hobby can just collect what they like and not worry about an X in a Beckett.

The brand was a knockoff compared to the other major players, who knew at the time it was an Official licensed card did the kids or casuals know walking into card shops know it was even Official and did they even look Official sitting in team bags? Ask any casual collector at that time if he even knew Star was Official.
I don't even own both of those or even have any agenda, but I was around then and that was how things were during those few years of the Star release, maybe you were in the know more than I was, I knew more about the Fleer release than I did about the Star being a rookie or an Official card.

[CommomSensei88]

Originally Posted by Hellcat

There is no XRC designated on the 101 it's simply his rookie. The Fleer if you want to shoehorn it that can be called a XRC since it's his first pack pulled card even though a 3rd year card. Novices have the 57 the pros the 101! I'm sorry you're probably new in the hobby do some research on the 101. The Star company had an NBA liscense the only one at the time who produced Jordans rookie not a knock off they were a legit brand at the time even though they didn't last long.

I know the Era of Star and even went to card shops they did not look Official sitting in team bags and were not available for everyone. Shops did not have every team set also. Kids were not even talking about Star cards or thought they were anything special or even knew that they were Official cards, there was no internet to inform the public and they were not available in packs. You had to be there to understand.
That's one reason for the XRC.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by Hellcat

There is no XRC designated on the 101 it's simply his rookie.

Honestly, you come across as the novice attempting to change history based on your own beliefs. The XRC designation is literally written in history and no matter how many times you shout from the crowd or how many Becketts, Tuff Stuffs, Sports Card or checklists you attempt to change, the card is still designated as an XRC in written historical documentation.