Wade Boggs vs Tony Gwynn

[Above the Rim]

FWIW - Comparing both 1983 Topps RC's in PSA 9.

Gwynn is about $215.
Boggs is about $170.

Boggs had a better 1st half of career, Gwynn a better 2nd half (sticks in fans minds as more recent domination). Perhaps that is why Gwynn fares better in price ?

[jlzinck]

Originally Posted by ScooterD

Wow - position played during the period REALLY impacts bWAR. Gwynn is -30 despite 3 more gold gloves and (generally) better stats.

Good thing I dont what bWar is nor care about it.

Were 2025 standards applied to 1985-89 I believe Boggs would have won 1 or 2 MVPs

Boggs was a better pure hitter who had much better power and would have hit more home runs in today's standards were used in the mid 80's
Boggs was an abover average fielder.

Gwynn was a top tier defender.

You really can't go wrong picking either

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHatesJazz

Boggs could have hit for more power if he wanted to. Very strong guy but focused on being a contact hitter.

I’ve heard numerous people in the know make the statement about Gwynn and power as well.

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

I’ve heard numerous people in the know make the statement about Gwynn and power as well.

Who are these people “in the know”

Thanks in advance

[rnocards]

Originally Posted by Above the Rim

FWIW - Comparing both 1983 Topps RC's in PSA 9.

Gwynn is about $215.
Boggs is about $170.

Boggs had a better 1st half of career, Gwynn a better 2nd half (sticks in fans minds as more recent domination). Perhaps that is why Gwynn fares better in price ?

I so badly want to add a PSA 10 Topps Gwynn RC to my collection... but it is so dang expensive. Current average is about $4,300.

Boggs's RC is cheaper... at average of about $2,500, though the most recent one sold was a bit over $3,000.

The market just views Gwynn as more valuable. It could also be due to the fact that he passed away early, which caused more collectors to wanting to own his RC.

[daveyc1]

Originally Posted by rnocards

Why would the SB and CS argument be used against Gwynn in comparison to Boggs? Gwynn's successfull steals ratio was like 72% (319 SB, 125 CS), which is respectable compared to the poor results of Boggs ratio of 41% (24 SB, 35 CS). So, Gwynn here was more efficient at stealing than Boggs.

As far as the amount of time playing, Gwynn only had like 108 more at bats than Boggs for their careers (Gwynn AB 9288, Boggs AB 9180)... so, when it comes to actual opportunities to bat and get a hit, it was basically a near statistical tie. Boggs would have only added like another 35 hits, based on his BA of 0.328, if he had the exact number of at bats as Gwynn.

for stolen bases, 75% is the break even point. below that, you are hurting the team more than helping by running into so many extra outs. a good base stealer is at greater than 80%. in all of the seasons where Gwynn had greater than 20 steals, only in one of those did he eclipse 80%.

Yes, Boggs was a terrible base stealer. so he did not attempt very many. only about 50 or 60 for his entire career. i did not research it, but i would assume some of those attempts were probably failed hit and run attempts.

because Boggs got a late start and they still ended up with nearly the same amount of PA's, that tells me that Boggs was healthier at more advanced age which lowered his rate stats. had he been given the oportunity at a more normal age, say 21, those rates would be even higher than they ended at. I bet his career BA would be at the same level as Gwynns and his advantage in OBP would be even more pronounced.

and none of that even takes into account the positional difference

[rnocards]

Both could have hit more home runs, I don't know. We only know what has already happened:

Gwynn hit 135 HR, and Boggs got 118 HR.

So, here Gwynn edges out Boggs, but not by that much. They both were just not known as power/home-run hitters. It was not their style.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by asujbl

Who are these people “in the know”

Thanks in advance

Obviously not first hand you miserable smartass. I saw both Todd Helton and Will Clark on MLB Network say he could have. It’s also touched on in the documentary “Mr. Padre” you impertinent Wisenheimer. It’s also clear to anyone who isn’t a dolt that he sacrificed power in favor of average.

[UMich92]

I'm in the camp that thinks Boggs is the better player because of playing 3B. But I'm more a fan of Gwynn. And he has the bonus of playing for only one team.

[blackvodka]

I'd give a slight nod to Gwynn. That's without placing a microscope on sabre metrics though, so sue me.

Sent from my motorola razr 2024 using Tapatalk

[rnocards]

Originally Posted by daveyc1

for stolen bases, 75% is the break even point. below that, you are hurting the team more than helping by running into so many extra outs. a good base stealer is at greater than 80%. in all of the seasons where Gwynn had greater than 20 steals, only in one of those did he eclipse 80%.

Yes, Boggs was a terrible base stealer. so he did not attempt very many. only about 50 or 60 for his entire career. i did not research it, but i would assume some of those attempts were probably failed hit and run attempts.

because Boggs got a late start and they still ended up with nearly the same amount of PA's, that tells me that Boggs was healthier at more advanced age which lowered his rate stats. had he been given the oportunity at a more normal age, say 21, those rates would be even higher than they ended at. I bet his career BA would be at the same level as Gwynns and his advantage in OBP would be even more pronounced.

and none of that even takes into account the positional difference

I understand that Gwynn was not an elite base stealer compared to the elites of the game, and I agree with that, but the bringing up of BS and CS and counting that against Gwynn is just not relevant when the topic is between Gwynn vs. Boggs. In my opinion, at least Gwynn attempted to make steals, and got 7 out of 10, which is essentially "neutral", neither significantly hurting nor helping the team, whereas Boggs just really didn't try much, and just wasn't successful at it when he did.

But, here is where one can make the argument that because Boggs didn't attempt to steal much, he limited his failures at stealing bases, and so allowed the players after him to drive him in. In this scenario, Boggs significantly edges out Gwynn, because Boggs ended up with 1513 Runs, compared to Gwynn's 1383 Runs. This could have been a managerial decision to limit Boggs attempt at steals, knowing his poor results, and allow the next batters to drive him in.

As far as Boggs needing more time, I don't really buy that argument, though understandable. Boggs did excel at OBP, much more than Gwynn, though when looking at adjusted OBP (OBP+), they are a statistical tie (Gwynn 132, Boggs 131).

Boggs positional difference, playing 3rd Base, versus Gwynn's Right Field, is where Boggs really shined, because 3B is a much more difficult position than RF, so you are very right on this one.

[Above the Rim]

The Run Differential in favor of Boggs is probably due to the fact he had career average 94 walks/162 games. Gwynn had career avg. 52 walks/162 games - significant difference.

Gwynn wins out on the "Like Wow!" stats. Gwynn had 8 Batting titles, Boggs 5. And Gwynn genuinely flirted with .400 season BA with .394 in 1994. Boggs' highest season BA was .368

Interesting, both Gwynn & Boggs only had 1 season each where they were top 5 in MVP voting.

[49ersSF]

One thing I like about both of these guys is how rare it was to strike either one out. Stats almost never tell the story of your outs. The strikeout is about the worst way you can cause an out. There is nothing good that can come out of it. However, you put the ball in play, and you can still advance runners while making the out.

Most people think an out is an out, but it is not, and the stats never reflect the true impact of specific outs.

[jhssketchcards]

From 1984-1998 Gwynn never finished less than 9th in BA in the National League.

His lowest average was .289, his rookie year

Both Boggs and Gwynn had less than than 750 career Ks, but Gwynn has 300 LESS career Ks.

Gwynn has more career 2B than Ks

Gwynn has more IBB (203) than Boggs (180)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rnocards]

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

One thing I like about both of these guys is how rare it was to strike either one out. Stats almost never tell the story of your outs. The strikeout is about the worst way you can cause an out. There is nothing good that can come out of it. However, you put the ball in play, and you can still advance runners while making the out.

Most people think an out is an out, but it is not, and the stats never reflect the true impact of specific outs.

Yes!

One stat I also really like is the batting average with 2 strikes. Getting a hit instead of striking out is probably one of the most frustrating thing that a picher goes through... so close to striking out the batter, yet ends up getting a hit on you... lol

So, in that category, since the stat started to be tracked, Gwynn holds the top spot at .302. Coincidently, Boggs just happens to come in second at .262. I just find that so interesting, in comparison to other stats involving those two among the other players of the modern era.

[oldgoldy97]

Boggs, Gwynn, Yount, Molitor, Lynn, Brett, Parker…..all boring AS.

[eye4talent]

Originally Posted by jlzinck

Good thing I dont what bWar is nor care about it.

Were 2025 standards applied to 1985-89 I believe Boggs would have won 1 or 2 MVPs

Boggs was a better pure hitter who had much better power and would have hit more home runs in today's standards were used in the mid 80's
Boggs was an abover average fielder.

Gwynn was a top tier defender.

You really can't go wrong picking either

The hypothetical about Boggs’ power is particularly relevant. In 500 less plate appearances, Gwynn had six more extra-base hits. It’s basically a push, but Gwynn technically has a alight edge.

As for Boggs being a better pure hitter, how do you figure? Gwynn had a higher batting average and a higher ISO. By definition, Gwynn was the better hitter.

Plus, Boggs benefited significantly from the absence of foul territory at Fenway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chiefnocahoma]

Gwynn wore out 90s Braves pitchers. Some crazy stats.

[LVDan]

For me it’s a push as they were both incredible hitters. Boggs played a tougher position and kept himself in better shape throughout his career- millions of beers be damned. Tony was an incredible human and ambassador and passed early as a lifelong Padre, which intensifies the love for him.
Hobby mediocre? Maybe.. but what 80s hitters were better?

[base set]

Originally Posted by Above the Rim

FWIW - Comparing both 1983 Topps RC's in PSA 9.

Gwynn is about $215.
Boggs is about $170.

Boggs had a better 1st half of career, Gwynn a better 2nd half (sticks in fans minds as more recent domination). Perhaps that is why Gwynn fares better in price ?

As Dan just mentioned and from what I recall flipping over the new 25 Archives Gwynn card just this afternoon, Gwynn played for just one team. Maybe that Baseball Card market strength creates the price difference, compared to playing for 2 teams that fans of each dislike a fair bit.

I like cards with complete career stats but that new Archives card is just not flattering for Gwynn. It definitely looks like he could hit for power, Prince Fielder style. Photo must have been from his final season.

[coltsnsox07]

Boggs, until I saw him celebrating on top of that G.D. horse.

[PuddleMonkey]

Gwynn all day every day.

[fabiani12333]

First 10 seasons, Boggs was better:

Boggs 1982-1991: .345/.435/.471, .906 OPS, 146 OPS+, 69.8 bWAR

Gwynn 1982-1991: .328/.382/.434, .816 OPS, 128 OPS+, 44.1 bWAR


Gwynn was arguably better afterwards:

Boggs 1992-1999: .300/.382/.396, .778 OPS, 106 OPS+, 21.6 bWAR

Gwynn 1992-2001: .351/.396/.489, .885 OPS, 137 OPS+, 25.0 bWAR

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by ScooterD

Wow - position played during the period REALLY impacts bWAR. Gwynn is -30 despite 3 more gold gloves and (generally) better stats.

Gwynn's dWAR was positive in his first decade in the league, when he was young and athletic:

1982-1992: 3.3 dWAR

But when he got into his mid-30s and gradually got fatter, his dWAR took a big dive:

1993-2001: -10.9 dWAR


Boggs was consistently a good-to-average defender at 3B, resulting in a career 13.9 dWAR.

[fabiani12333]

One big thing to consider about Boggs is his hitting numbers were inflated playing at Fenway Park:

at Fenway Park: .369/.464/.527, .991 OPS, .386 BABIP

everywhere but Fenway Park: .306/.388/.398, .785 OPS, .321 BABIP

career overall: .328/.415/.443, .858 OPS, .344 BABIP

He peppered the Green Monster.