PSA Buyback Grade Change

[boxbuster7]

this was a great video I watched. At the end of the day PSA is a 3rd party company and should not have a deathgrip on the industry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NoRFosKiAQ

[f2tornado]

Originally Posted by boxbuster7

PSA has definitely been giving less 10s than they used to

I ran a bunch of sets through GemRate to see if this was anecdotal or fact. It is a fact for paper (flagship) Topps baseball sets. Most gem rates gradually fell since 2021, generally down 5-15% since then. For Topps Chrome baseball, the the % change is essentially within the margin of error. 2017 and 2018 down 3% but 2020 is +1%.

It is probably safe to say that PSA has gotten much tougher on paper. Any tightening of the screws on Chrome is background noise. If someone's Chrome sub sucks, then that person either bowed to GOD or needs to visit a vision specialist.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by GuacamoleCards

Or perhaps buying a lot of Huge PSA 8s (doesn't Nat have one of, if not the largest collection of 86 Jordan PSA 10s) to get re-graded by the company he owns and operates... I wonder how that would go.

Yep. I mean, I get it, he's a collector like us as others have said and can buy whatever he wants. But in his massive role at PSA, it simply leaves too many unknowns on what his intentions could be, especially who he is buying from and the quantity.

Originally Posted by inaka

Updated as of today...



Gee, I wonder what newsworthy event brought Nat here to Blowout yesterday. LOL

Oh, cool. So the day he returns to BO is the day BO buries this thread into the Grading channel.

Thanks a lot BO and Nat! You guys are doing such a wonderful job! Keep up the great work!

Originally Posted by 88horsepower

On September 9th of this year, I sent Nat Turner an email to his private email address. Nat and I had communicated in May of 2023 when I was selling my 1997 Precious Metal Gems collection of about 40 cards. Nat was #2 in the football set registry for the PMG set and I had decided to reach out to the top three or so people in the registry to see if anyone would be interested in buying them for their registry. Nat, at least at the time, had that envelope next to his username on PSA's website, so was able to contact him. Nat and I had a pleasant exchange about the set, but ultimately, he kindly passed on the deal, and I sold the cards to the #1 person in the registry.

So, getting back to the email I sent out on September 9th of this year, I wanted to reach out to Nat to share some concerns with him and hoped to start a friendly dialogue about what I was seeing and what I was hearing in the community and from my own experiences. I figured I probably would not hear back from Nat right away, but Cosetta Robbins, who is a truly awesome member of the PSA team, encouraged me to reach out to Nat since I had his contact information. Weeks went by and I heard nothing from Nat, despite sending him a very warm invitation to dialogue about the concerns. To this day, I still have not heard back from Nat Turner.

In 2024, Ryan Hoge and I had shared some emails along with Juan Salinas. Ryan, who is the CEO of PSA, and Juan, who is a customer service representative, had worked with me on a submission that went awry where only six cards in a 105-card order came back PSA 10. I was very upset at the results. I've mentioned this story here before, but for those unaware, the order was re-submitted and 52 out of the 99 cards that previously graded a PSA 9 or below received a full grade bump with zero cards in the order coming back a lower grade. Ryan had a hand in this, offering to have the submission re-graded by what he referred to a senior member of the grading team. I have no idea if a senior grader truly did a blind re-assessment of the cards or if the cards were arbitrarily bumped to appease me, but the results of the order were shockingly different than the first order.

I thanked Ryan and Juan, believing that the order was handled in good faith and that the company acted with integrity regarding the re-grade. On June 1st of 2024, I sent both Ryan and Juan an email thanking them for handling the issue and hoped to have a further dialogue about the original issue, hoping to learn more about what went wrong and what was being done to correct the problem, prepared to offer my own ideas. Ten days went by, and I received no response. I sent a second message to both parties on June 10th. No response.

I also emailed Juan directly, without Ryan, multiple times. No response.

That lack of transparency and poor communication sent me very strong messages despite all three people having not said a single word. They can't have a transparent conversation about what happens behind closed doors at PSA, aren't open to feedback, and don't care about customers. I kept my mouth shut and held back from criticizing PSA for some time before I decided to be more openly critical about their operation. If Nat had that conversation with me, or even if Ryan or Juan had done so on Nat's behalf, it would have likely kept me loyal to PSA.

PSA has nobody to blame but themselves for the poor optics they have created for themselves. As far as I'm concerned, many of the issues at PSA are piling up to the point where, eventually, PSA is going to pay for their lack of concern for their customers. Right now, they are still making a ton of money. Good for them. I'm not holding my breath for that to continue if they continue to turn their backs on their core constituents.

Infuriating.

Originally Posted by uminnesota

For many years, Nat was consistently responsive. This year, however, he hasn’t replied—even after I shared deeply personal news that my dad passed away and that I had a stroke. I reached out more than once and never heard back. That made me think about 88Horsepower and I support him and everyone else.

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. Appalling you didn't hear back.

[brev87]

So I was told by someone with insider knowledge that, IF you send in let's say a base Wemby with a bulk submitter, and someone else sends one in and both get 10s, you won't necessarily get YOUR Wemby card back in a PSA 10 slab. And it's because they don't have the time to differentiate with so many cards being graded.

Take that for what it is

[eastbayak]

Originally Posted by brev87

So I was told by someone with insider knowledge that, IF you send in let's say a base Wemby with a bulk submitter, and someone else sends one in and both get 10s, you won't necessarily get YOUR Wemby card back in a PSA 10 slab. And it's because they don't have the time to differentiate with so many cards being graded.

Take that for what it is

Although I've done it on a few occasions, I've always hesitated sending in non-serialized cards to PSA. For instance, I rarely grade but I once sent in a bunch of Special Delivery Charizards (somewhere between 8-10). Most looked GREAT in hand and I received all 9s except 1 10. However, all of the 9s had some very minor whiting on an edge/corner that wasn't there when I submitted the cards. I always assumed they just sent me back someone else's cards and kept my good (likely 10) copies for their bigger sub/important clients.

Since then, I've only submitted cards once with them and it was a small submission of numbered only cards.

But yeah, that's also one reason why I hesitate to submit some of my nice-looking modern Pokemon cards.

[boxbuster7]

my local shop told me they paused psa submissions for the holidays but I wonder if this scandal had any bearing on the decision. Also the lag is definitely a factor. They were getting a lot of misdirected heat peoples cards were taking 5/6 months.

[GuacamoleCards]

Originally Posted by 88horsepower

On September 9th of this year, I sent Nat Turner an email to his private email address. Nat and I had communicated in May of 2023 when I was selling my 1997 Precious Metal Gems collection of about 40 cards. Nat was #2 in the football set registry for the PMG set and I had decided to reach out to the top three or so people in the registry to see if anyone would be interested in buying them for their registry. Nat, at least at the time, had that envelope next to his username on PSA's website, so was able to contact him. Nat and I had a pleasant exchange about the set, but ultimately, he kindly passed on the deal, and I sold the cards to the #1 person in the registry.

So, getting back to the email I sent out on September 9th of this year, I wanted to reach out to Nat to share some concerns with him and hoped to start a friendly dialogue about what I was seeing and what I was hearing in the community and from my own experiences. I figured I probably would not hear back from Nat right away, but Cosetta Robbins, who is a truly awesome member of the PSA team, encouraged me to reach out to Nat since I had his contact information. Weeks went by and I heard nothing from Nat, despite sending him a very warm invitation to dialogue about the concerns. To this day, I still have not heard back from Nat Turner.

In 2024, Ryan Hoge and I had shared some emails along with Juan Salinas. Ryan, who is the CEO of PSA, and Juan, who is a customer service representative, had worked with me on a submission that went awry where only six cards in a 105-card order came back PSA 10. I was very upset at the results. I've mentioned this story here before, but for those unaware, the order was re-submitted and 52 out of the 99 cards that previously graded a PSA 9 or below received a full grade bump with zero cards in the order coming back a lower grade. Ryan had a hand in this, offering to have the submission re-graded by what he referred to a senior member of the grading team. I have no idea if a senior grader truly did a blind re-assessment of the cards or if the cards were arbitrarily bumped to appease me, but the results of the order were shockingly different than the first order.

I thanked Ryan and Juan, believing that the order was handled in good faith and that the company acted with integrity regarding the re-grade. On June 1st of 2024, I sent both Ryan and Juan an email thanking them for handling the issue and hoped to have a further dialogue about the original issue, hoping to learn more about what went wrong and what was being done to correct the problem, prepared to offer my own ideas. Ten days went by, and I received no response. I sent a second message to both parties on June 10th. No response.

I also emailed Juan directly, without Ryan, multiple times. No response.

That lack of transparency and poor communication sent me very strong messages despite all three people having not said a single word. They can't have a transparent conversation about what happens behind closed doors at PSA, aren't open to feedback, and don't care about customers. I kept my mouth shut and held back from criticizing PSA for some time before I decided to be more openly critical about their operation. If Nat had that conversation with me, or even if Ryan or Juan had done so on Nat's behalf, it would have likely kept me loyal to PSA.

PSA has nobody to blame but themselves for the poor optics they have created for themselves. As far as I'm concerned, many of the issues at PSA are piling up to the point where, eventually, PSA is going to pay for their lack of concern for their customers. Right now, they are still making a ton of money. Good for them. I'm not holding my breath for that to continue if they continue to turn their backs on their core constituents.

PSA is like the rest of the top companies in the hobby... they're printing so much money they've reached the point where they no longer need to give a #@#@#@#@ about their customers.

[f2tornado]

Originally Posted by brev87

So I was told by someone with insider knowledge that, IF you send in let's say a base Wemby with a bulk submitter, and someone else sends one in and both get 10s, you won't necessarily get YOUR Wemby card back in a PSA 10 slab. And it's because they don't have the time to differentiate with so many cards being graded.

Take that for what it is

The cards get certs on the order they were submitted on the form. If the group subber enters them in order, then odds are, if a person got the wrong Wemby, it's because the group submitter mixed them up on either end. Happened to me once on a cheaper card (I had the gem but received the 9; I could tell by the centering) and that was the end of me using group submitters. Only a buffoon group submitter would enter multiple quantity on one submission form line from multiple people. And only a dolt can't keep cert numbers in order.

[KhalDrogo]

How will PSA survive this? Is the Collectors IPO threatened? Is Nat selling his Exquisite Kobe/MJ Logoman to feed his kids? I need answers!

[boxbuster7]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

How will PSA survive this? Is the Collectors IPO threatened? Is Nat selling his Exquisite Kobe/MJ Logoman to feed his kids? I need answers!

I heard goldins auctioning it

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by boxbuster7

I heard goldins auctioning it

He sold it to Kenny to auction through Heritage?

[Boostedwrx]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

He sold it to Kenny to auction through Heritage?

Whatever happened, Prob shilled the price up

[daveyc1]

I listened to the newest SCN podcast yesterday and they "addressed" this issue.
To begin, they are PSA schills. PSA is a paid sponsor of their show.

They said that a PSA high up told them that PSA itself apparently does not buy cards themselves, but are only a conduit between the buyer and seller?

is this accurate?

The SCN guys seemed to make this out like it was a non issue as far as fraud goes but did mention that they should have got out in front of it earlier.

I am unaware that buyers can go onto the PSA website and make offers on PSA cards which have been recently graded.

[MavsRChamps]

Originally Posted by daveyc1

I listened to the newest SCN podcast yesterday and they "addressed" this issue.
To begin, they are PSA schills. PSA is a paid sponsor of their show.

They said that a PSA high up told them that PSA itself apparently does not buy cards themselves, but are only a conduit between the buyer and seller?

is this accurate?

The SCN guys seemed to make this out like it was a non issue as far as fraud goes but did mention that they should have got out in front of it earlier.

I am unaware that buyers can go onto the PSA website and make offers on PSA cards which have been recently graded.

I believe it's undisclosed "third parties" that can do that through PSA partnerships ... Which is also controversial imo because there's no specifics on who is buying what? And PSA's name is still attached to the "buying the card back" even if they do not "buy cards themselves" - Essentially, they're playing both sides if using that as excuse - meaning you can't 1) Act like you as PSA is not responsible for buying back own cards because "it's not us who's buying!" but at same time 2) Not disclose who is actually buying the cards back. This lack of transparency essentially dissolves everyone from blame because everything is a secret LOL.

As a PSA critic I'm actually not as concerned / distrustful of the grade change - I firmly believe PSA wasn't intentionally getting over this one collector, I am more concerned however of their dismissive response and basically admitting to - 1) Reviewing card grades AFTER sending offers and revealing grades to customers? This makes 0 sense because once you get PSA offers you can immediately ship cards back to you, so where exactly are they being reviewed after this? Isn't this already after Q1 / Q 2 ... 2) PSA's lack of transparency over what cards are even reviewed and the procedures around that ... PSA talks so light and so non-specific of these areas it is extremely troubling to me. For a company why has been constantly criticized in recent times for inaccurate grades / inconsistent grading to speak so non-specific about grading reviews and show no effort to review correctly or weed out bad graders is more disheartening.

[daveyc1]

so if there is not a true PSA "marketplace" so to speak and there is no transparency about who is actually making offers and buying newly graded cards, to me, that is a HUGE red flag.

PSA can say whatever they want, but without any transparency at all on this "offers" venture it seems extrememely concerning and rife for abuse.

[Bosoxfan5990]

I love how Geoff Wilson was steadfastly defending PSA the last few days, saying this was no big deal, then BOOM. CardsHQ (Wilson's company) announced a partnership with PSA yesterday.

Cesspool.

[The_Reverend]

PSA will always be king! Not because they should be, that’s debatable, but because this hobby cares about one thing money and ROI! In one breath they are condemned and in the next when said person gets an upCharge email they are praised. Although there is a lot to see here, until the hobby stop sending them 1.5 MILLION PLUS cards per month it is all talk and for content. Most could see this possible issue coming but them paying up to 90% comps blinded the complainers.

Also when every vendor has 95% plus PSA slabs in their cases, they will always defend their questionable practices.

[auburn35]

The "PSA" isn't buying/selling cards is just a way to spin the narrative.
Yes, there are outside partners also buying, but "PSA" certainly is buying and selling their own products.

Collectors Universe = PSA
When PSA makes a mistake (grade guarantee) that check comes from Collectors Universe, not PSA.

As Collectors Universe (collectors, collectors holdings,...) owns both PSA and Powerpacks (PSA/GameStop repack vending machine) it technically might be correct to say "PSA" isn't buying/selling cards, but Collectors Universe (PSA) obviously does.

[daveyc1]

Originally Posted by auburn35

The "PSA" isn't buying/selling cards is just a way to spin the narrative.
Yes, there are outside partners also buying, but "PSA" certainly is buying and selling their own products.

Collectors Universe = PSA
When PSA makes a mistake (grade guarantee) that check comes from Collectors Universe, not PSA.

As Collectors Universe (collectors, collectors holdings,...) owns both PSA and Powerpacks (PSA/GameStop repack vending machine) it technically might be correct to say "PSA" isn't buying/selling cards, but Collectors Universe (PSA) obviously does.

that is interesting and slimey. talk about a backhanded way to buy and sell your own product.

does anyone have any idea who (and how) are the people/entities other than CU that are able to make offers and buy newly graded PSA cards?

who are these offers coming from when it is not PSA itself?

[auburn35]

Maybe other partners are known, but this article mentions Burbank, cardshq (Geoff Wilson) and Dave and Adam's card world.

https://www.cllct.com/sports-collect...ard-matchmaker

[88horsepower]

Originally Posted by The_Reverend

PSA will always be king! Not because they should be, that’s debatable, but because this hobby cares about one thing money and ROI! In one breath they are condemned and in the next when said person gets an upCharge email they are praised. Although there is a lot to see here, until the hobby stop sending them 1.5 MILLION PLUS cards per month it is all talk and for content. Most could see this possible issue coming but them paying up to 90% comps blinded the complainers.

Also when every vendor has 95% plus PSA slabs in their cases, they will always defend their questionable practices.

History is replete with examples of businesses that were once thriving, collapsing under the weight of their own hubris. Literally, world empires have crumbled. PSA is not bulletproof.

[acunamatata1]

Last thing I sold to them was a PSA 10 Pokemon card for well over card ladder price. This, I think, illustrates that there is some legitimate line of business here, and also they maybe don’t really know what they’re doing…

[acunamatata1]

Originally Posted by acunamatata1

Last thing I sold to them was a PSA 10 Pokemon card for well over card ladder price. This, I think, illustrates that there is some legitimate line of business here, and also they maybe don’t really know what they’re doing…

Anecdotal, but just had a look and 6/7 of things I’ve sold to them have been PSA 10. One was a 9. One (a 10) was serial numbered.

[anusinha]

No ones going to care until a CGC or BGS Gem Mint sells for the same as a PSA Gem Mint

[Raleigh504]

I can see PSA getting around it and changing the cert # and then eventually reusing it for later especially on non #'d cards.