If you believe Ohtani is the GOAT, can you actually prove it? - Page 4

seanrs1 · 11-19-2025, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

fab just likes to argue. i think that is his hobby

That and I assume he does not collect Ohtani. Right now there is nothing more fun than collecting Ohtani.

Ohtani is the hobby GOAT!!!

fabiani12333 · 11-19-2025, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

fab just likes to argue. i think that is his hobby

No, I genuinely want others views on this topic. I'm responding to certain comments because I think they're wrong or flawed, but I still appreciate the different viewpoints -- the GOAT label is still partly subjective in nature and people value certain attributes or qualities of players over others. Ohtani's skills are certainly unprecedented -- that we can all agree on.

fabiani12333 · 11-19-2025, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanrs1

That and I assume he does not collect Ohtani. Right now there is nothing more fun than collecting Ohtani.

Ohtani is the hobby GOAT!!!

His cards are expensive as hell now. I was shopping for his cards in mid-2021 when the hobby hadn't yet realized the implications of what he was doing.

seanrs1 · 11-19-2025, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

No, I genuinely want others views on this topic. I'm responding to certain comments because I think they're wrong or flawed, but I still appreciate the different viewpoints -- the GOAT label is still partly subjective in nature and people value certain attributes or qualities of players over others. Ohtani's skills are certainly unprecedented -- that we can all agree on.

Ohtani is the hobby GOAT right now...agree or disagree?

Do you collect Ohtani? Do you have any good Ohtani RC cards? Do you wish you had collected Ohtani cards in the past and now they are too expensive for you to buy?

fabiani12333 · 11-19-2025, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanrs1

Ohtani is the hobby GOAT right now...agree or disagree?

Do you collect Ohtani? Do you have any good Ohtani RC cards? Do you wish you had collected Ohtani cards in the past and now they are too expensive for you to buy?

Yes, I have some nice Ohtani rookies -- i don't PC or invest in him, though. Yes, I wish I had been more aggressive in buying his cards in 2021 -- I remember offering like $5k for a card that I'm sure is at least 5x in value now.

seanrs1 · 11-19-2025, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Yes, I have some nice Ohtani rookies -- i don't PC or invest in him, though. Yes, I wish I had been more aggressive in buying his cards in 2021 -- I remember offering like $5k for a card that I'm sure is at least 5x in value now.

Is Ohtani the hobby GOAT right now...yes or no?

fabiani12333 · 11-19-2025, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanrs1

Is Ohtani the hobby GOAT right now...yes or no?

Uh, the numbers say yah. Of course, comparing him to previous generations of player cards doesn't make much sense -- the type of cards being produced now are so much different and varied. Mantle and Mays only had 1 or 2 rookie cards, for example.

ThoseBackPages · 11-19-2025, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Uh, the numbers say yah. Of course, comparing him to previous generations of player cards doesn't make much sense -- the type of cards being produced now are so much different and varied. Mantle and Mays only had 1 or 2 rookie cards, for example.

they only have one each

fabiani12333 · 11-19-2025, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

they only have one each

It depends on how you view their Topps cards -- many see them as rookies because they are their first Topps cards and the ones that get all the attention and notoriety.

TimBuckTwo · 11-19-2025, 05:45 PM

Yes...I feel it in my nuts.... er ... I mean my gut.

ThoseBackPages · 11-19-2025, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

It depends on how you view their Topps cards -- many see them as rookies because they are their first Topps cards and the ones that get all the attention and notoriety.

Yes, those folks are not very bright.

Chris P · 11-19-2025, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

fab just likes to argue. i think that is his hobby

Yep..pretty much

johnlocke36 · 11-19-2025, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Dave Winfield was a college All-American and MVP of the College World Series as a pitcher. He was drafted #1 overall and went to straight to the majors. I have no doubt that he could have done both, but it wasn't considered at the time. The Padres wanted his bat it was settled. As was pointed out, only someone coming from another pro league as a free-agent would have the leverage to only sign with a team that would let him do both.

I'm sure the vast majority of major leaguers could also have made it to the majors at other position.

Hunter Greene was like top high school bat in country. Skenes hit like .400 with 10 bombs as a freshman in college.

Bumgarner could have put up impressive offensive war im sure.

Other way around even easier, god knows how many stud OF/SS can throw 100+ if given the chance (and thats really all you need to do to have a shot to be a stud pitcher). just look at all the times random relievers came in to pitch for fun and just pump like 96 messing around

chilly55 · 11-19-2025, 06:52 PM

Right now, Ohtani IS the hobby goat. He is where Trout was a decade ago, everything Trout. Today, everything Ohtani with Judge right behind him

But, his career is far from goat material. Saying someone is a goat after 5 incredible years is a disservice to everyone that preceded him. If you want to compare Ohtani's last 5 years to others in the past, then yes, those 5 years can easily be argued as the goat. Arguments can easily be made for and against the last 5 years. Most detractors will argue his lack of innings and playing DH, versus greats of the past playing in the field. Big difference between getting to rest every 2 or 3 innings versus going out and playing the field every inning. But however you look at it, these past 5 years have been incredible.

But, goat of all-time, please. He has a ways to go before you can put him in that category. What a player does in the second half of their career can impact how great a player will be remembered. Everyone was saying how great Trout was and he was going to be the goat. What happened? I was an huge Andruw Jones fans back in the day, what happened? One could call out many of players second half of their career and say what happened.

I personally thought there was no stopping Pujols. What happened? He was on pace to put up some of the greatest career numbers we had ever seen. Compared to Ohtani, and this is just one metric, but WAR wise, Pujols was at 64.1 and Ohtani sits at 51.5 after 8 seasons. That includes his pitching numbers. And even if you take out the shortened season, and took out any of Pujols first 8 seasons, Pujols is still ahead.

Anyway, If Ohtani can keep it up, even if only 30 and 40 HR seasons, put up some decent pitching stats mixed in, play a good 15 or more seasons, another MVP or WS ring, he could end up being the goat. Right now, he IS not the goat. However, it can easily be argued that his last 5 years, are the goat.

Absknicks · 11-19-2025, 07:18 PM

Ohtani definitely got out of the AL at the right time for his trophy case's sake.

Also got lucky Judge ran into the Dodger Stadium wall in 2023.

ThoseBackPages · 11-19-2025, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absknicks

Ohtani definitely got out of the AL at the right time for his trophy case's sake.

Also got lucky Judge ran into the Dodger Stadium wall in 2023.

and Judge got lucky he hit 62 homers in 2022

fabiani12333 · 11-19-2025, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilly55

Right now, Ohtani IS the hobby goat. He is where Trout was a decade ago, everything Trout. Today, everything Ohtani with Judge right behind him

But, his career is far from goat material. Saying someone is a goat after 5 incredible years is a disservice to everyone that preceded him. If you want to compare Ohtani's last 5 years to others in the past, then yes, those 5 years can easily be argued as the goat. Arguments can easily be made for and against the last 5 years. Most detractors will argue his lack of innings and playing DH, versus greats of the past playing in the field. Big difference between getting to rest every 2 or 3 innings versus going out and playing the field every inning. But however you look at it, these past 5 years have been incredible.

But, goat of all-time, please. He has a ways to go before you can put him in that category. What a player does in the second half of their career can impact how great a player will be remembered. Everyone was saying how great Trout was and he was going to be the goat. What happened? I was an huge Andruw Jones fans back in the day, what happened? One could call out many of players second half of their career and say what happened.

I personally thought there was no stopping Pujols. What happened? He was on pace to put up some of the greatest career numbers we had ever seen. Compared to Ohtani, and this is just one metric, but WAR wise, Pujols was at 64.1 and Ohtani sits at 51.5 after 8 seasons. That includes his pitching numbers. And even if you take out the shortened season, and took out any of Pujols first 8 seasons, Pujols is still ahead.

Anyway, If Ohtani can keep it up, even if only 30 and 40 HR seasons, put up some decent pitching stats mixed in, play a good 15 or more seasons, another MVP or WS ring, he could end up being the goat. Right now, he IS not the goat. However, it can easily be argued that his last 5 years, are the goat.

Well said. The reason for Pujols' sudden drop-off in his early 30s might have to do with his actual age being 3 years older than what he claims: https://www.halosheaven.com/2018/11/...-age-conundrum

If you adjust his age-32 season to make it his age-35 season, it makes a lot more sense -- still a good player, but on the decline.

fabiani12333 · 11-19-2025, 10:30 PM

The real question for Ohtani going forward is, can he simultaneously be a great pitcher and hitter over a full season? Not just one or the other, or partially one, but both. Can he both contend for a Cy Young Award as a pitcher and MVP award as a hitter in the same season? He has yet to show this. He had one great season as a pitcher in 2022, and has consistently been a great hitter the last few seasons. Will 2026 be the season he finally puts it all together? Will the Dodgers allow him to pitch enough innings to do it? Will his arm hold up to the higher workload?

ThoseBackPages · 11-19-2025, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

The real question for Ohtani going forward is, can he simultaneously be a great pitcher and hitter over a full season? Not just one or the other, or partially one, but both. Can he both contend for a Cy Young Award as a pitcher and MVP award as a hitter in the same season? He has yet to show this. He had one great season as a pitcher in 2022, and has consistently been a great hitter the last few seasons. Will 2026 be the season he finally puts it all together? Will the Dodgers allow him to pitch enough innings to do it? Will his arm hold up to the higher workload?

here is what you (and others) seem to not understand.

it doesnt matter.

Times have changed.

What he is doing RIGHT NOW *IS* enough.

Winning, setting records, being a highlight machine

Being more popular in Japan than in the US.

it seems to me that are a lot of non baseball fans that are NOW discovering him

fabiani12333 · 11-19-2025, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

I'm sure the vast majority of major leaguers could also have made it to the majors at other position.

Hunter Greene was like top high school bat in country. Skenes hit like .400 with 10 bombs as a freshman in college.

Bumgarner could have put up impressive offensive war im sure.

Other way around even easier, god knows how many stud OF/SS can throw 100+ if given the chance (and thats really all you need to do to have a shot to be a stud pitcher). just look at all the times random relievers came in to pitch for fun and just pump like 96 messing around

Bumgarner's 2014 season is even more noteworthy if you factor in his hitting:

Hitting: .258/.286/.470, 4 HR, 15 RBI, .755 OPS, 78 PA, 1.20 bWAR

Pitching: 217.1 IP, 2.98 ERA, 3.7 bWAR

Postseason: 52.2 IP, 1.03 ERA, 1.70 WPA

One of the greatest all-around seasons ever.

fabiani12333 · 11-19-2025, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

here is what you (and others) seem to not understand.

it doesnt matter.

Times have changed.

What he is doing RIGHT NOW *IS* enough.

Winning, setting records, being a highlight machine

Being more popular in Japan than in the US.

it seems to me that are a lot of non baseball fans that are NOW discovering him

Well, yeah -- he's a baseball superstar. I was just wondering if he has another level to him. Has he reached the limits of his ability? Or can he take it a step further?

Rage · 11-20-2025, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Well, yeah -- he's a baseball superstar. I was just wondering if he has another level to him. Has he reached the limits of his ability? Or can he take it a step further?

He could put up a 12+ WAR season with a full season of pitching and hitting.
2022 he got 6.2 bWAR pitching in 166 IP, his most yet.
Last 3 years with the just the hitting he's averaged 7.3 bWAR a season.
Peak Shohei would be a 13-15 bWAR season. It's just a matter of health and timing.
Time will tell if he's reached his limits or if he goes further.
The question isn't can he, it's will he?

robert0629 · 11-20-2025, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Multiple people have now mentioned Ohtani's supposed handicap of starting his MLB career at the ripe age of 23-years-old. But Willie Mays had his age 21 and 22 seasons taken away from him due to military service. He only had 24 home runs and 167 hits entering his age-23 season. He finished his career with 660 home runs, 3,293 hits, and 156.2 bWAR.

Mays lost one full season, and about 80% of another. By playing in Japan, it's possible Ohtani lost as many as five seasons of MLB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

As I explained, the 4 unanimous MVPs are because he played in the NL the last two seasons and not the AL -- Judge would have won both years, if he had been.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Not only would Ohtani not have won the MVP in the AL the last two years, but he wouldn't have even finished in second place -- it would have been Bobby Witt Jr in 2024 and Cal Raleigh in 2025. The numbers support this -- both Witt and Raleigh had historic seasons at premium-defensive positions. DHing full time is a detriment to a player's value and their team. Playing in the AL, Ohtani might not have even made the playoffs -- he didn't with the Angels all those seasons.

You're comparing him to a player in Aaron Judge who may one day have his own case as the GOAT. Judge is already being mentioned in the same breath as Rogers Hornsby and Albert Pujols, as one of the greatest right-handed batters of all time.

Also, I think the voting would have been close between Ohtani and Raleigh this year. I do think Raleigh wins it. However, in 2024 I think Ohtani beats Witt Jr. I don't think the fact that Ohtani is a DH would have mattered as much to the voters. The WARs are nearly identical. Ohtani beats him in OPS, and 50/50 had never been done before. Voters would have chosen a 50/50 player over a 30/30 player regardless of what position Witt Jr plays.

BoSoxFan1999 · 11-20-2025, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Not only would Ohtani not have won the MVP in the AL the last two years, but he wouldn't have even finished in second place -- it would have been Bobby Witt Jr in 2024 and Cal Raleigh in 2025. The numbers support this -- both Witt and Raleigh had historic seasons at premium-defensive positions. DHing full time is a detriment to a player's value and their team. Playing in the AL, Ohtani might not have even made the playoffs -- he didn't with the Angels all those seasons.

It's hilarious in a thread where you ask people to provide PROOF Ohtani is the GOAT, you just pull out of your a$$ that Ohtani wouldn't have even finished 2nd in MVP voting the last 2 years in the AL. Your "proof" of that being "deeerp, they had historic seasons!". Uh genius, Ohtani had a historic season last year too (you know, that 50/50 thing), and you could argue he had another one this season as he did break the Dodgers franchise single-season HR record set by....himself last year.

The way you regularly contradict yourself and move the goalposts constantly is why no one takes your "honest debate" seriously and most people just see you as trolling. Like seriously, did Ohtani kick your dog or call your momma ugly? Very bizarre this anti-Ohtani bender you've decided to go on.

My guess is that you sold off a ton of Ohtani after he had his TJS and you've regretted that decision ever since and try to bring him down to rationalize your decision. Only thing that really makes sense. Just admit that you're bitter you jumped off the Ohtani boat way too early! Denial is the first stage of coping which you seem to be stuck in. Once you get to the acceptance phase, you'll be alright.

fabiani12333 · 11-20-2025, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert0629

Also, I think the voting would have been close between Ohtani and Raleigh this year. I do think Raleigh wins it. However, in 2024 I think Ohtani beats Witt Jr. I don't think the fact that Ohtani is a DH would have mattered as much to the voters. The WARs are nearly identical. Ohtani beats him in OPS, and 50/50 had never been done before. Voters would have chosen a 50/50 player over a 30/30 player regardless of what position Witt Jr plays.

Witt had a higher WAR than Ohtani in 2024:

Witt Jr 2024: 9.4 bWAR; 10.5 fWAR

Ohtani 2024: 9.2 bWAR; 8.9 fWAR

Witt Jr surprisingly led a small market team to the playoffs for the first time in a decade -- Ohtani joined a super team and perennial contender and helped them once again return to the postseason.

It was easier achieving 50-50 for Ohtani after the rule changes and playing DH full time -- no pitching or playing the field.

Witt Jr would have finished ahead of Ohtani in the MVP vote in 2024 -- I bet my life on it.

11-19-2025, 05:45 PM	#85
TimBuckTwo Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,147	Yes...I feel it in my nuts.... er ... I mean my gut.

11-19-2025, 06:52 PM	#89
chilly55 Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Dumfries, Va Posts: 3,548	Right now, Ohtani IS the hobby goat. He is where Trout was a decade ago, everything Trout. Today, everything Ohtani with Judge right behind him But, his career is far from goat material. Saying someone is a goat after 5 incredible years is a disservice to everyone that preceded him. If you want to compare Ohtani's last 5 years to others in the past, then yes, those 5 years can easily be argued as the goat. Arguments can easily be made for and against the last 5 years. Most detractors will argue his lack of innings and playing DH, versus greats of the past playing in the field. Big difference between getting to rest every 2 or 3 innings versus going out and playing the field every inning. But however you look at it, these past 5 years have been incredible. But, goat of all-time, please. He has a ways to go before you can put him in that category. What a player does in the second half of their career can impact how great a player will be remembered. Everyone was saying how great Trout was and he was going to be the goat. What happened? I was an huge Andruw Jones fans back in the day, what happened? One could call out many of players second half of their career and say what happened. I personally thought there was no stopping Pujols. What happened? He was on pace to put up some of the greatest career numbers we had ever seen. Compared to Ohtani, and this is just one metric, but WAR wise, Pujols was at 64.1 and Ohtani sits at 51.5 after 8 seasons. That includes his pitching numbers. And even if you take out the shortened season, and took out any of Pujols first 8 seasons, Pujols is still ahead. Anyway, If Ohtani can keep it up, even if only 30 and 40 HR seasons, put up some decent pitching stats mixed in, play a good 15 or more seasons, another MVP or WS ring, he could end up being the goat. Right now, he IS not the goat. However, it can easily be argued that his last 5 years, are the goat.

11-19-2025, 07:18 PM	#90
Absknicks Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 444	Ohtani definitely got out of the AL at the right time for his trophy case's sake. Also got lucky Judge ran into the Dodger Stadium wall in 2023.

11-19-2025, 10:30 PM	#93
fabiani12333 Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 12,384	The real question for Ohtani going forward is, can he simultaneously be a great pitcher and hitter over a full season? Not just one or the other, or partially one, but both. Can he both contend for a Cy Young Award as a pitcher and MVP award as a hitter in the same season? He has yet to show this. He had one great season as a pitcher in 2022, and has consistently been a great hitter the last few seasons. Will 2026 be the season he finally puts it all together? Will the Dodgers allow him to pitch enough innings to do it? Will his arm hold up to the higher workload?