If you believe Ohtani is the GOAT, can you actually prove it?

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by BoSoxFan1999

He's had stretches, but I wouldn't go there quite yet either. Though his 2022 pitching season was pretty damn good.

Agree with all of this.

[fulltritty]

No one has ever defined facts that qualify anyone as the GOAT of any sport. Is it championship rings, MVPs, homeruns, hits, ERA, RBIs, WAR, etc.? Therefore, until that happens, GOAT will always be a personal opinion. You can't prove who is or isn't the GOAT because there is no definition of what qualifies a player as the GOAT.

[jjrpilot]

Ohtani hasn't won a Superbowl yet. Let me know when he does and then we'll have the GOAT discussion.

[BoSoxFan1999]

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan5990

Agree with all of this.

I honestly think his 2022 season might have been his most impressive overall, but unfortunately he ran into a Judge that hit 62 HR's that season.
Believe it or not, he put up more pitching bWAR than Verlander (unanimous CY winner) that year, 6.2 vs 5.6. Sorta wondering how that was even possible, as Verlander's #'s were pretty much better across the board than Ohtani's.

[BoSoxFan1999]

Originally Posted by jjrpilot

Ohtani hasn't won a Superbowl yet. Let me know when he does and then we'll have the GOAT discussion.

Nor a Master's or even a bowling tournament (Mookie's done that). Come on, what kind of GOAT is that?!?

[johnlocke36]

One think I think that gets overlooked is there are probably quite a few MLB stars that could be wildly successful 2 way players if they had the benefit of being Japanese.

But American players that get drafted will never have the leverage of a foreign player that gets posted as a free agent and says I want to go both ways.

If Hunter Green/Skenes were allowed to hit would they do Ohtnai numbers, of course not. could they hit 35 HR and also win the Cy Young, probably.

Could Bryce Harper have been 2-3 WAR pitcher, probably, could Masyn Winn post a 7-8 WAR season going 2 ways, probably.

Jac Caglianone prob has most Ohatni like tools offensively, and also can throw like 102 from left side. If he was a free agent and said I'll only sign if I can go both ways who knows what happens.

This isn't to take away anything from Ohtani as he's clearly the best there is but I think its often disingenuous to always list the not since Babe Ruth stats when no American born players since Babe Ruth are ever given a fair opportunity to try and do what he's doing

[msink28]

Interesting to think about, plenty of pitchers have shown that with different circumstances they could have been serviceable hitters, but I rarely consider the other way around, like Elly De La Cruz throwing in the high 90s. I guess it is disingenuous to think that because they don't that they can't.

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

One think I think that gets overlooked is there are probably quite a few MLB stars that could be wildly successful 2 way players if they had the benefit of being Japanese.

But American players that get drafted will never have the leverage of a foreign player that gets posted as a free agent and says I want to go both ways.

If Hunter Green/Skenes were allowed to hit would they do Ohtnai numbers, of course not. could they hit 35 HR and also win the Cy Young, probably.

Could Bryce Harper have been 2-3 WAR pitcher, probably, could Masyn Winn post a 7-8 WAR season going 2 ways, probably.

Jac Caglianone prob has most Ohatni like tools offensively, and also can throw like 102 from left side. If he was a free agent and said I'll only sign if I can go both ways who knows what happens.

This isn't to take away anything from Ohtani as he's clearly the best there is but I think its often disingenuous to always list the not since Babe Ruth stats when no American born players since Babe Ruth are ever given a fair opportunity to try and do what he's doing

[ScooterD]

People have tried and failed recently - that’s why organizations shy away from the concept.

Frankie Rodriguez (Front Row ‘91) and Brooks Keischnick come to mind. Bob Lemon and Don Newcombe could have done it - the latter actually ended his career as an outfielder in the Mexican league.

There’s always John Monty Ward.

[carlo16]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

One think I think that gets overlooked is there are probably quite a few MLB stars that could be wildly successful 2 way players if they had the benefit of being Japanese.

But American players that get drafted will never have the leverage of a foreign player that gets posted as a free agent and says I want to go both ways.

If Hunter Green/Skenes were allowed to hit would they do Ohtnai numbers, of course not. could they hit 35 HR and also win the Cy Young, probably.

Could Bryce Harper have been 2-3 WAR pitcher, probably, could Masyn Winn post a 7-8 WAR season going 2 ways, probably.

Jac Caglianone prob has most Ohatni like tools offensively, and also can throw like 102 from left side. If he was a free agent and said I'll only sign if I can go both ways who knows what happens.

This isn't to take away anything from Ohtani as he's clearly the best there is but I think its often disingenuous to always list the not since Babe Ruth stats when no American born players since Babe Ruth are ever given a fair opportunity to try and do what he's doing

People seem to forget that all the best players grow up as Pitchers, Shortstop and to a lesser extent catchers and CFers. Most other players are hidden at other positions until after high school. I'd guess that a third of the league pitched at some point in high school and probably 90% of the league was a pitcher at some point in their lives.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by msink28

Interesting to think about, plenty of pitchers have shown that with different circumstances they could have been serviceable hitters, but I rarely consider the other way around, like Elly De La Cruz throwing in the high 90s. I guess it is disingenuous to think that because they don't that they can't.

Dave Winfield was a college All-American and MVP of the College World Series as a pitcher. He was drafted #1 overall and went to straight to the majors. I have no doubt that he could have done both, but it wasn't considered at the time. The Padres wanted his bat it was settled. As was pointed out, only someone coming from another pro league as a free-agent would have the leverage to only sign with a team that would let him do both.

[atk825]

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan5990

I wouldn't call Ohtani a dominant pitcher...

He had a higher K% than Tarik Skubal last year and a FIP of 1.90. If that isn't dominant, I am not sure what is...also has a higher career K% than Skubal, too.

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by atk825

He had a higher K% than Tarik Skubal last year and a FIP of 1.90. If that isn't dominant, I am not sure what is...also has a higher career K% than Skubal, too.

Small sample sizes...

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

No one has ever defined facts that qualify anyone as the GOAT of any sport. Is it championship rings, MVPs, homeruns, hits, ERA, RBIs, WAR, etc.? Therefore, until that happens, GOAT will always be a personal opinion. You can't prove who is or isn't the GOAT because there is no definition of what qualifies a player as the GOAT.

No, there is no generally-accepted and precise definition for GOAT, but you can certainly prove your personal definition using an objective and logical methodology. People claiming someone is the GOAT on the internet should have to support that claim. Otherwise, why should anyone take their claim or opinion seriously?

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by rats60

Ohtani has won 4 MVPs in 5 seasons, the most all time. More than Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron, etc. All 4 were unanimous. It took a historic season by Aaron Judge breaking the HR record for Ohtani to not have won 5 in a row. The game hasn't seen that type of dominance since Babe Ruth from a hitter or Sandy Koufax as a pitcher. That certainly puts him in the discussion and makes him an all-time great, inner-circle future Hall of Famer. To be the all-time GOAT is going to take more than 5 seasons, but people saying he is the best player they have seen is a reasonable opinion. Sandy Koufax is the best pitcher I have seen and he was only great for 5 seasons. Just enjoy the great players in the game today, Ohtani, Judge, Skenes... and leave the GOAT arguments for when their careers are complete.

As I explained, the 4 unanimous MVPs are because he played in the NL the last two seasons and not the AL -- Judge would have won both years, if he had been. Heck, the designated hitter, which has been Ohtani's primary position in his career, didn't exist in the NL until the 2022 season. Without it, Ohtani does not play for the Dodgers and win the last two championships. And MLB created the so-called Ohtani rule so he could stay in the game as DH when he pitches.

A primary DH, who needs rule changes to win MVPs and championships, is not the GOAT -- c''mon, rats.

[BoSoxFan1999]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

As I explained, the 4 unanimous MVPs are because he played in the NL the last two seasons and not the AL -- Judge would have won both years, if he had been. Heck, the designated hitter, which has been Ohtani's primary position in his career, didn't exist in the NL until the 2022 season. Without it, Ohtani does not play for the Dodgers and win the last two championships. And MLB created the so-called Ohtani rule so he could stay in the game as DH when he pitches.

A primary DH, who needs rule changes to win MVPs and championships, is not the GOAT -- c''mon, rats.

This is one hell of a bit, and your commitment to it is admirable, even though you look ridiculous.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

One think I think that gets overlooked is there are probably quite a few MLB stars that could be wildly successful 2 way players if they had the benefit of being Japanese.

But American players that get drafted will never have the leverage of a foreign player that gets posted as a free agent and says I want to go both ways.

If Hunter Green/Skenes were allowed to hit would they do Ohtnai numbers, of course not. could they hit 35 HR and also win the Cy Young, probably.

Could Bryce Harper have been 2-3 WAR pitcher, probably, could Masyn Winn post a 7-8 WAR season going 2 ways, probably.

Jac Caglianone prob has most Ohatni like tools offensively, and also can throw like 102 from left side. If he was a free agent and said I'll only sign if I can go both ways who knows what happens.

This isn't to take away anything from Ohtani as he's clearly the best there is but I think its often disingenuous to always list the not since Babe Ruth stats when no American born players since Babe Ruth are ever given a fair opportunity to try and do what he's doing

One former player that comes to mind is Josh Hamilton:

Google AI:

Pitching and Hitting: He was a dominant pitcher with a fastball that reached 96-97 mph. Simultaneously, he was an elite hitter, batting over .500 and hitting for power, earning him a reputation as a five-tool player.

Performance: In his senior season, he finished with a 7-1 record, 83 strikeouts in 47 innings, and a .556 batting average with 11 home runs. In his junior year, he was 11-2 as a pitcher and hit .636 with 12 home runs.

Recognition: His high school performance earned him multiple accolades, including being named USA Baseball's Amateur Player of the Year and Baseball America's High School Player of the Year in 1999.

Draft Status: He was the number one overall pick in the 1999 MLB draft by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. He was considered one of the top prospects in the draft, often compared to fellow top prospect Josh Beckett.

Another player is Buster Poster -- he was the closer and starting catcher at Florida State. He famously played every position in a single game.

[scal]

You could call GOAT debates a fun thought experiment. Having to explain why you enjoy watching a particular player play baseball over others using stats and data as the sole basis of your answer isn't fun.

[seanrs1]

I think for a lot of people Ohtani passes the eye test for GOAT. He is never going to have the counting stats of many past greats (as he is never going to play enough years in the league to make up for starting at age 23)...so no one is going to be able to win an argument on all time numbers.

But for most people if you watch Ohtani perform at an all star level as both a pitcher and hitter at the same time, and do amazing things on the field that have never been accomplished before (50/50), and win 4 MVP's and 2 WS rings it becomes more apparent to most people that he is the most amazing player that one has ever seen without using performance enhancing drugs. He also brings a sense of excitement every time he is on the field. He has an "it" factor about him. And he appears to be a very genuine player on and off the field. So he is super likeable.

Ohtani may never be your GOAT, but he is certainly the hobby GOAT right now!

[BigL7370]

He has had the memorable game moments, he has two championship rings, the MVPs and he has shown the ability to pitch and hit - may never see anything like a two way guy like him.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by seanrs1

I think for a lot of people Ohtani passes the eye test for GOAT. He is never going to have the counting stats of many past greats (as he is never going to play enough years in the league to make up for starting at age 23)...so no one is going to be able to win an argument on all time numbers.

But for most people if you watch Ohtani perform at an all star level as both a pitcher and hitter at the same time, and do amazing things on the field that have never been accomplished before (50/50), and win 4 MVP's and 2 WS rings it becomes more apparent to most people that he is the most amazing player that one has ever seen without using performance enhancing drugs. He also brings a sense of excitement every time he is on the field. He has an "it" factor about him. And he appears to be a very genuine player on and off the field. So he is super likeable.

Ohtani may never be your GOAT, but he is certainly the hobby GOAT right now!

Multiple people have now mentioned Ohtani's supposed handicap of starting his MLB career at the ripe age of 23-years-old. But Willie Mays had his age 21 and 22 seasons taken away from him due to military service. He only had 24 home runs and 167 hits entering his age-23 season. He finished his career with 660 home runs, 3,293 hits, and 156.2 bWAR.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

As I explained, the 4 unanimous MVPs are because he played in the NL the last two seasons and not the AL -- Judge would have won both years, if he had been. Heck, the designated hitter, which has been Ohtani's primary position in his career, didn't exist in the NL until the 2022 season. Without it, Ohtani does not play for the Dodgers and win the last two championships. And MLB created the so-called Ohtani rule so he could stay in the game as DH when he pitches.

A primary DH, who needs rule changes to win MVPs and championships, is not the GOAT -- c''mon, rats.

The NBA changed the rules to benefit Michael Jordan. Does that eliminate him from GOAT consideration?

Judge barely won MVP this year. To say he absolutely would of beaten Ohtani has no basis in fact. Even last year, it would have been close. No one has won more than 1 unanimous MVP, even Bonds by cheating. Ohtani is also well on the way to passing Bonds in MVPs, even with Bonds cheating to win 5 of them.

I didn't say Ohtani is the GOAT, at least not yet, but he at least is building case. That is more than Barry Bonds who can't even make the HOF. Willie Mays is the best player I have ever seen, but Ohtani makes an interesting contrast as their skill sets are different. However, if Ohtani keeps playing at a high level, I may change my mind.

[seanrs1]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Multiple people have now mentioned Ohtani's supposed handicap of starting his MLB career at the ripe age of 23-years-old. But Willie Mays had his age 21 and 22 seasons taken away from him due to military service. He only had 24 home runs and 167 hits entering his age-23 season. He finished his career with 660 home runs, 3,293 hits, and 156.2 bWAR.

How about everyone just makes an argument and you then tell them they are wrong, or just discount it. Whats the point of this thread if there is no argument you are going to listen too without saying why you disagree with it.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by rats60

The NBA changed the rules to benefit Michael Jordan. Does that eliminate him from GOAT consideration?

Judge barely won MVP this year. To say he absolutely would of beaten Ohtani has no basis in fact. Even last year, it would have been close. No one has won more than 1 unanimous MVP, even Bonds by cheating. Ohtani is also well on the way to passing Bonds in MVPs, even with Bonds cheating to win 5 of them.

I didn't say Ohtani is the GOAT, at least not yet, but he at least is building case. That is more than Barry Bonds who can't even make the HOF. Willie Mays is the best player I have ever seen, but Ohtani makes an interesting contrast as their skill sets are different. However, if Ohtani keeps playing at a high level, I may change my mind.

Not only would Ohtani not have won the MVP in the AL the last two years, but he wouldn't have even finished in second place -- it would have been Bobby Witt Jr in 2024 and Cal Raleigh in 2025. The numbers support this -- both Witt and Raleigh had historic seasons at premium-defensive positions. DHing full time is a detriment to a player's value and their team. Playing in the AL, Ohtani might not have even made the playoffs -- he didn't with the Angels all those seasons.

In regards to Bonds not winning more than one unanimous MVP -- that's because he was despised by the writers and because he had tough competition, unlike Ohtani the last two years. The voting has changed over the years -- Willie Mays only won two MVPs!!! Just plain stupid.

[ThoseBackPages]

fab just likes to argue. i think that is his hobby

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by seanrs1

How about everyone just makes an argument and you then tell them they are wrong, or just discount it. Whats the point of this thread if there is no argument you are going to listen too without saying why you disagree with it.

I have listened. Those saying he is in the process of becoming the GOAT have a decent argument -- he's in the middle of his career and is still building his case. His performance to this point does not preclude him from being the GOAT. Alhough, being a primary DH hurts his case. But he could go on to win multiple Cy Young Awards and MVPs and shut all the naysayers up.