If you believe Ohtani is the GOAT, can you actually prove it?

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

What? I can't ask a question of the forum?

I'm genuinely curious what evidence others can present to support the claim that Ohtani is the GOAT.

You are asking people to 'prove' something that is subjective. He obviously doesn't have the counting stats required after 8 seasons, and you've already dismissed every possible argument in your OP anyway. What other point could anyone possibly make?

You don't want a real discussion, you want to prove how many stats you can copy and paste under the guise of having a debate. There will be no points conceded and it will be everyone standing on their own soap box as per usual. You have fun with that!

[ScooterD]

Originally Posted by no10pin

You are asking people to 'prove' something that is subjective.

While I agree with everything else in this post, it all boils down to this sentence. People can debate/discuss it all they want, but no one is right, wrong, or winning.

Solid take no10pin

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by Drudgep

One thing that I think is also excluded from the WAR debate, is that Ohtani, when pitching, literally frees up a roster spot, you have a hitter/pitcher in one roster slot. That means you can add an extra bullpen arm or bat vs L or R. That flexibility is not included in his "WAR."

Also- the eye test, he can win a game by himself, pitching/hitting.

Absolutely correct.

This is not a 1+1 = 2 situation

the 1 value unit of hitting + 1 value unit of pitching quite literally is = to a value greater than 2

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by no10pin

You are asking people to 'prove' something that is subjective. He obviously doesn't have the counting stats required after 8 seasons, and you've already dismissed every possible argument in your OP anyway. What other point could anyone possibly make?

You don't want a real discussion, you want to prove how many stats you can copy and paste under the guise of having a debate. There will be no points conceded and it will be everyone standing on their own soap box as per usual. You have fun with that!

It is both a subjective and objective label. You can value certain qualities of a player over other qualities based off personal preference. But you can also support your view that he is the GOAT through objective means like statistics.

The point of this thread is to see if people in.the forum can actually sufficiently support their claim of him being the GOAT through statistics or logic. I'm tired of people making the claim without supporting it.

[imbluestreak23]

I find it interesting that Bobby Knight stated that Michael Jordan was the greatest player he had ever seen...before he played a single minute in the NBA

Why did he say that?

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by ScooterD

While I agree with everything else in this post, it all boils down to this sentence. People can debate/discuss it all they want, but no one is right, wrong, or winning.

Solid take no10pin

The problem is it's not really being debated or discussed -- people are just making the claim without supporting it.

The GOAT label is both subjective and objective -- you need the statistics as well as the perception. And they mostly go hand in hand -- no one is going to claim a player is the GOAT without at least having the skills and accomplishments to enter the conversation.

Ohtani has the skills and accomplishments mid-career to at least enter the conversation for GOAT. But does it hold up under the scrutiny of the pertinent facts and comparative analysis? Can an argument successfully be made to prove he is indeed the GOAT?

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by YouTheManNick

Find something better to do with your free time.

Seconded...

[JWBlue]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

GOAT argument focused exclusively on WAR is the most disingenuous way to have a GOAT argument while not acknowledging the flaws of WAR.

Case in point: let me create my own artificial "good" scale of baseball player using some artificial scoring system ranging from 0-100. Hypothetically, the OP is a tremendous fan of some old boomer player who played during the 30s. Fantastic. Using my fictitious scoring system, let's analyze the 30s.

1930s Average Player ranking using ficticious scoring system: 35
1930s OPs Favorite GOAT Boomer player using fictitious scoring system: 70

GREAT! GOAT level player is quite literally woth DOUBLE the average player, or put another is way "twice as good" as the average layer. AMAZING! Fast forward to modern day times.

2025 Average Player ranking using fictitious scoring system: 60
2025 My Favorite GOAT player using fictitious scoring system: 90

Aww, my player is only 50% more valuable than modern competition. While the old boomer GOAT candidate is 100% more valuable than average competition! But, per my ficticious scoring system, my modern day GOAT player is still "better" than the boomer 30's candidate.

In short, standard WAR measures value relative to contemporaries, so a player's raw talent might be higher today, but their relative dominance over their peers (and thus their WAR) might be lower than a past star who was in a less competitive environment. This is entirely logical and has been discussed on sports card message boards since Trout popularized WAR use

Exact reason WAR is so flawed.

Never understood why WAR is treated like a reliable stat like every "expert" seems to do.

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

The problem is it's not really being debated or discussed -- people are just making the claim without supporting it.

The GOAT label is both subjective and objective -- you need the statistics as well as the perception. And they mostly go hand in hand -- no one is going to claim a player is the GOAT without at least having the skills and accomplishments to enter the conversation.

Ohtani has the skills and accomplishments mid-career to at least enter the conversation for GOAT. But does it hold up under the scrutiny of the pertinent facts and comparative analysis? Can an argument successfully be made to prove he is indeed the GOAT?

This is why people get annoyed when you make thread after thread after thread. It's not that it promotes debate, it's because you've nominated yourself to be the board daddy of the baseball section. No one has successfully convinced you, so that means they aren't doing it right. Ohtani has been debated endlessly here and will continue to be, but it's not being done by your rules.

The GOAT label (which I have been tired of almost since it started) is nothing but an opinion. The only time it feels non-subjective is when it's obvious to everyone (IE: Jerry Rice). It's never going to be that with 150+ years of baseball.

Having said all that, allow me to throw out the one thing you left out of your OP, just to get it out there and then I'm moving on. 4 unanimous MVPs when no one else has more than 1. Seems like GOAT stuff to me!

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Drudgep

One thing that I think is also excluded from the WAR debate, is that Ohtani, when pitching, literally frees up a roster spot, you have a hitter/pitcher in one roster slot. That means you can add an extra bullpen arm or bat vs L or R. That flexibility is not included in his "WAR."

Also- the eye test, he can win a game by himself, pitching/hitting.

But he only pitches once every five or six days, so a team needs a sixth starter on the roster on occasion. But let's say your claim is true, and he adds more value due to his dual role. The value of an extra bullpen arm isn't particularly high -- Will Klein, the winning pitcher in the 18-inning game 3 of the World Series, was worth 0.2 bWAR during the regular season. So maybe bump Ohtani's career value 2 WAR. Or you can use the average value of relievers in 2025, which was also about 0.2 bWAR (130.7 bWAR / 713 relievers).

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by no10pin

This is why people get annoyed when you make thread after thread after thread. It's not that it promotes debate, it's because you've nominated yourself to be the board daddy of the baseball section. No one has successfully convinced you, so that means they aren't doing it right. Ohtani has been debated endlessly here and will continue to be, but it's not being done by your rules.

The GOAT label (which I have been tired of almost since it started) is nothing but an opinion. The only time it feels non-subjective is when it's obvious to everyone (IE: Jerry Rice). It's never going to be that with 150+ years of baseball.

Having said all that, allow me to throw out the one thing you left out of your OP, just to get it out there and then I'm moving on. 4 unanimous MVPs when no one else has more than 1. Seems like GOAT stuff to me!

I don't frequently make threads on Blowout -- that is not true. I have created a total of 115 threads in the nine years since I created my account. That calculates to an average of one thread a month (115 threads / 107 months).

The GOAT label is not just subjective -- Jerry Rice has the statistical records that support that he is indeed GOAT level.

And I'll gladly expose your flaw in referencing Ohtani's four unanimous MVP awards. Ohtani winning the MVP unanimously in 2024 and 2025 while DHing almost full-time reflects the lack of strong competition in the NL for the award during that time. If he had still been playing in the AL, he would have lost the award to Aaron Judge both years.

The voting for the MVP award has also evolved over the years. Baseball writers only awarded Willie Mays two MVPs in his career, even though he led his league in bWAR ten times, home runs four times, and OPS+ six times. Mike Trout has more MVPs than Willie Mays -- why? Because voting has changed. Voters used to weigh team success much more in the MVP voting -- Mays' teams often missed the playoffs, during a time when only one or two division winners made the postseason in each league.

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

The GOAT label is not just subjective -- Jerry Rice has the statistical records that support that he is indeed GOAT level.

I literally said that one wasn't subjective. You aren't even reading but please tell me all the ways I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

The voting for the MVP award has also evolved over the years. Baseball writers only awarded Willie Mays two MVPs in his career, even though he led his league in bWAR ten times, home runs four times, and OPS+ six times. Mike Trout has more MVPs than Willie Mays -- why? Because voting has changed. Voters used to weigh team success much more in the MVP voting -- Mays' teams often missed the playoffs, during a time when only one or two division winners made the postseason in each league.

Perfect example of you feeling like you have to educate the masses that don't need educating. You are the only one smart enough to know that the voting mindset has changed over 100+ years when the voting group has turned over 5-6 times.

I only posted the MVP thing to prove my point. There is nothing that's going to convince you, so this thread is only for you to stroke your own ego. Have fun!

[ObanMontecristo]

outside of your counting stats, which aren’t yet complete for Ohtani, how many other players have:

4 unanimous MVP awards (let alone in a 5-year span)
50-50 season
All star at both Pitcher and DH
qualified for both the batting title and an ERA title in the same year

GOAT is an opinion and can’t be “proven”. There’s also recency bias, and every generation will have a different opinion based on who they see during their lifetimes. Legendary accomplishments, which no other player in the history of the game has ever done or even thought of before, weigh large.

[Absknicks]

If he could OPS within 100 points of Judge in a given year, might boost his case a bit. That he's so far behind the best hitter in the sport while they're both at the peak of their powers is definitely a mark against him.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Drudgep

One thing that I think is also excluded from the WAR debate, is that Ohtani, when pitching, literally frees up a roster spot, you have a hitter/pitcher in one roster slot. That means you can add an extra bullpen arm or bat vs L or R. That flexibility is not included in his "WAR."

Also- the eye test, he can win a game by himself, pitching/hitting.

Originally Posted by ObanMontecristo

outside of your counting stats, which aren’t yet complete for Ohtani, how many other players have:

4 unanimous MVP awards (let alone in a 5-year span)
50-50 season
All star at both Pitcher and DH
qualified for both the batting title and an ERA title in the same year

GOAT is an opinion and can’t be “proven”. There’s also recency bias, and every generation will have a different opinion based on who they see during their lifetimes. Legendary accomplishments, which no other player in the history of the game has ever done or even thought of before, weigh large.

-- 4 unanimous MVP Awards, but only being the most valuable player in MLB in one of those seasons: https://www.baseball-reference.com/l..._leagues.shtml

If he had played in the AL the last two seasons, he would have lost the MVP to Judge both years. Willie Mays led MLB in bWAR seven seasons.

-- A 50-50 season in a year he DH'd full-time and didn't pitch -- the other members of the 40-40 club all played the field full time. It was also after MLB changed the rules to make it easier to steal bases -- only two pick-off attempts; bigger bases; pitch clock. The stated goal was to have more stolen bases.

-- The dual hitting-pitching accomplishments makes him a historically unique player, but they don't automatically make him the GOAT. But he's clearly one of the most skilled players to ever play the game.

[fabiani12333]

There is one thing I can think of that no statistic captures about Ohtani's value as a player. But it was only relevant for one season. When he is both a team's ace and clean-up hitter at the same time, that makes him more valuable than just the sum total of his pitching and hitting. He only achieved this level over a full season in 2022, where he was essentially both Rafael Devers as a hitter and peak Corbin Burnes as a pitcher. For a player to provide both those roles at the same time for a full season is truly unparalleled in the history of the game -- even Babe Ruth didn't do that. For Ohtani to do that again he needs to at least qualify for the ERA title and hit every game.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

There is one thing I can think of that no statistic captures about Ohtani's value as a player. But it was only relevant for one season. When he is both a team's ace and clean-up hitter at the same time, that makes him more valuable than just the sum total of his pitching and hitting. He only achieved this level over a full season in 2022, where he was essentially both Rafael Devers as a hitter and peak Corbin Burnes as a pitcher. For a player to provide both those roles at the same time for a full season is truly unparalleled in the history of the game -- even Babe Ruth didn't do that. For Ohtani to do that again he needs to at least qualify for the ERA title and hit every game.

Ohtani has won 4 MVPs in 5 seasons, the most all time. More than Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron, etc. All 4 were unanimous. It took a historic season by Aaron Judge breaking the HR record for Ohtani to not have won 5 in a row. The game hasn't seen that type of dominance since Babe Ruth from a hitter or Sandy Koufax as a pitcher. That certainly puts him in the discussion and makes him an all-time great, inner-circle future Hall of Famer. To be the all-time GOAT is going to take more than 5 seasons, but people saying he is the best player they have seen is a reasonable opinion. Sandy Koufax is the best pitcher I have seen and he was only great for 5 seasons. Just enjoy the great players in the game today, Ohtani, Judge, Skenes... and leave the GOAT arguments for when their careers are complete.

[Hellcat]

OP=missed the boat on Ohtani cards!

[NYRE2PECT]

Originally Posted by rats60

Ohtani has won 4 MVPs in 5 seasons, the most all time. More than Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron, etc. All 4 were unanimous. It took a historic season by Aaron Judge breaking the HR record for Ohtani to not have won 5 in a row. The game hasn't seen that type of dominance since Babe Ruth from a hitter or Sandy Koufax as a pitcher. That certainly puts him in the discussion and makes him an all-time great, inner-circle future Hall of Famer. To be the all-time GOAT is going to take more than 5 seasons, but people saying he is the best player they have seen is a reasonable opinion. Sandy Koufax is the best pitcher I have seen and he was only great for 5 seasons. Just enjoy the great players in the game today, Ohtani, Judge, Skenes... and leave the GOAT arguments for when their careers are complete.

Love this take, Rats.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[corndog]

Originally Posted by rats60

Ohtani has won 4 MVPs in 5 seasons, the most all time. More than Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron, etc. All 4 were unanimous. It took a historic season by Aaron Judge breaking the HR record for Ohtani to not have won 5 in a row. The game hasn't seen that type of dominance since Babe Ruth from a hitter or Sandy Koufax as a pitcher. That certainly puts him in the discussion and makes him an all-time great, inner-circle future Hall of Famer. To be the all-time GOAT is going to take more than 5 seasons, but people saying he is the best player they have seen is a reasonable opinion. Sandy Koufax is the best pitcher I have seen and he was only great for 5 seasons. Just enjoy the great players in the game today, Ohtani, Judge, Skenes... and leave the GOAT arguments for when their careers are complete.

Nicely explained!

Great player? Absolutely

GOAT? Wait until his career is finished

It's as easy as that.

[Big35Hurt]

He's the goat because I am heavily invested in him. There I said it.

[BoSoxFan1999]

Originally Posted by no10pin

This is why people get annoyed when you make thread after thread after thread. It's not that it promotes debate, it's because you've nominated yourself to be the board daddy of the baseball section. No one has successfully convinced you, so that means they aren't doing it right. Ohtani has been debated endlessly here and will continue to be, but it's not being done by your rules.

The GOAT label (which I have been tired of almost since it started) is nothing but an opinion. The only time it feels non-subjective is when it's obvious to everyone (IE: Jerry Rice). It's never going to be that with 150+ years of baseball.

Having said all that, allow me to throw out the one thing you left out of your OP, just to get it out there and then I'm moving on. 4 unanimous MVPs when no one else has more than 1. Seems like GOAT stuff to me!

no10pin coming in with the BODY BLOWS.

[BoSoxFan1999]

Originally Posted by Hellcat

OP=missed the boat on Ohtani cards!

This is the only thing that makes sense. He had a bunch of Ohtani's back when they were 1/100th their current prices, sold them all off, and now is hating himself for missing the Ohtani boat so he tries everyday to convince himself selling them was the right move by tearing down Ohtani in reGarded posting on an online forum. LOL

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by rats60

Ohtani has won 4 MVPs in 5 seasons, the most all time. More than Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron, etc. All 4 were unanimous. It took a historic season by Aaron Judge breaking the HR record for Ohtani to not have won 5 in a row. The game hasn't seen that type of dominance since Babe Ruth from a hitter or Sandy Koufax as a pitcher. That certainly puts him in the discussion and makes him an all-time great, inner-circle future Hall of Famer. To be the all-time GOAT is going to take more than 5 seasons, but people saying he is the best player they have seen is a reasonable opinion. Sandy Koufax is the best pitcher I have seen and he was only great for 5 seasons. Just enjoy the great players in the game today, Ohtani, Judge, Skenes... and leave the GOAT arguments for when their careers are complete.

I wouldn't call Ohtani a dominant pitcher...

[BoSoxFan1999]

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan5990

I wouldn't call Ohtani a dominant pitcher...

He's had stretches, but I wouldn't go there quite yet either. Though his 2022 pitching season was pretty damn good.