What will it take for Joker to be in top 10 conversation?

[daeve]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

Another MJ-Lebron thread

Wright:"In the 6 games the box scores indicated. Jordan had 28 steals. After comparing our notes from the film study, we each counted 12 steals, an astounding difference of 16 excess steals... a game against the Hawks where MJ was credited with 4 steals..Hawks were credited with 3 turnovers "

The only thing funnier to me than all the Kobe All-defensive nods is the MJ ones. Quite a bit of marketing hype went into his DPOY, and now we're finding out some outright lying also went into it.

Which also makes all the "Pippen wasn't so great" arguments all the funnier to me.

https://streamable.com/79xl6t here's the segment for those who want to watch, but be prepared MJ stans, MJ didn't have final cut on this one

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by daeve

The only thing funnier to me than all the Kobe All-defensive nods is the MJ ones. Quite a bit of marketing hype went into his DPOY, and now we're finding out some outright lying also went into it.

Which also makes all the "Pippen wasn't so great" arguments all the funnier to me.

https://streamable.com/79xl6t here's the segment for those who want to watch, but be prepared MJ stans, MJ didn't have final cut on this one

Somehow this article is going to be LeBron's fault.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by daeve

The only thing funnier to me than all the Kobe All-defensive nods is the MJ ones. Quite a bit of marketing hype went into his DPOY, and now we're finding out some outright lying also went into it.

Which also makes all the "Pippen wasn't so great" arguments all the funnier to me.

https://streamable.com/79xl6t here's the segment for those who want to watch, but be prepared MJ stans, MJ didn't have final cut on this one

how does this affect his 6 Finals MVPs

[ninjabum87]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Somehow this article is going to be LeBron's fault.

Hermano furiously hate watching all LBJ games on 5x speed to confirm his stats as we speak.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by ninjabum87

Hermano furiously hate watching all LBJ games on 5x speed to confirm his stats as we speak.

Rumor is the student score keeper at St Vincent St Mary once gave a steal to LeBron that should have gone the Corey Jones.

#LeFraud

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by daeve

The only thing funnier to me than all the Kobe All-defensive nods is the MJ ones. Quite a bit of marketing hype went into his DPOY, and now we're finding out some outright lying also went into it.

Which also makes all the "Pippen wasn't so great" arguments all the funnier to me.

https://streamable.com/79xl6t here's the segment for those who want to watch, but be prepared MJ stans, MJ didn't have final cut on this one

#wedonewiththe90s

[drobfan8]

Nice way to deflect from guaranteeing Denver would be in the Finals again. Ah ah

Joker was about to overtake Shaq and Tim Duncan too. Give me strength

[6celtics33]

Whatever the case may be

I’m fairly certain when it comes to defense. Jordan > Jokic

Jokic. Not top 10

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Whatever the case may be

I’m fairly certain when it comes to defense. Jordan > Jokic

Jokic. Not top 10

It simply isn't true that a player has to be elite on defense in order to be top 10

(my signature shows where I have him ranked at this point in his career, based on rough estimate of overall value. Try finding a player nowadays who specializes well enough on both offense and defense to surpass Jokic in value. It's a different era than Jordan's, also Jordan > Jokic since Jordan is the presumptive GOAT and also an athletic freak of nature. Jokić is also a freak of nature...)

[rdleifriaf]

The advanced metrics speak for themselves:

- https://www.basketball-reference.com...pm_career.html
- https://www.basketball-reference.com...48_season.html

Scroll down to similarity scores and observe that Shaq is 90% of Joker and Hakeem just 85%.

- https://www.basketball-reference.com...jokicni01.html

The last four years have been unworldly. If he keeps up this play and wins a few more titles, we may need to revisit the GOAT conversation.

[rdleifriaf]

I mean come on, you have a center that basically averages a triple double, can bop threes, and is also usually the strongest man on the court. I'd take him #1 in all-time draft right now.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by rdleifriaf

The advanced metrics speak for themselves:

- https://www.basketball-reference.com...pm_career.html
- https://www.basketball-reference.com...48_season.html

Scroll down to similarity scores and observe that Shaq is 90% of Joker and Hakeem just 85%.

- https://www.basketball-reference.com...jokicni01.html

The last four years have been unworldly. If he keeps up this play and wins a few more titles, we may need to revisit the GOAT conversation.

So you're telling me that my guy D. Rob is top 5 all time! Finally, getting his respek.


The thing with comparing eras, the modern guys have an incredible advantage in that they've learned from the past 2 decades of basketball and also have a crap ton of advantage in that they've made the game far more free flowing.

the 90s and early 00s was all about limiting points. Now it's about outscoring your opponent and seeing if they can keep up.

Jokic is a cheat code currently. I'm not sure he would be in a different era as a coach wouldn't let him bring the ball up. Plus he'd have to defend bigs with a post game. Now there's almost 0 bigs playing out of the post.

Greatness is greatness, but the comps are a bit ridic.

We also are a fair ways off Jokic on the downside of his career.

[rdleifriaf]

VORP last four seasons:

2020-21 NBA 8.8 (1st)
2021-22 NBA 9.8 (1st)
2022-23 NBA 8.8 (1st)
2023-24 NBA 10.6 (1st)

PER last four seasons:

2020-21 NBA 31.3 (1st)
2021-22 NBA 32.8 (1st)
2022-23 NBA 31.5 (1st)
2023-24 NBA 31.0 (1st)

Win shares last four seasons:

2020-21 NBA 15.6 (1st)
2021-22 NBA 15.2 (1st)
2022-23 NBA 14.9 (1st)
2023-24 NBA 17.0 (1st)

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by rdleifriaf

VORP last four seasons:

2020-21 NBA 8.8 (1st)
2021-22 NBA 9.8 (1st)
2022-23 NBA 8.8 (1st)
2023-24 NBA 10.6 (1st)

PER last four seasons:

2020-21 NBA 31.3 (1st)
2021-22 NBA 32.8 (1st)
2022-23 NBA 31.5 (1st)
2023-24 NBA 31.0 (1st)

Win shares last four seasons:

2020-21 NBA 15.6 (1st)
2021-22 NBA 15.2 (1st)
2022-23 NBA 14.9 (1st)
2023-24 NBA 17.0 (1st)

GOAT fo sho



The system has gotten him 1 title.

And some say it was a pretty easy one.

[rdleifriaf]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

GOAT fo sho



The system has gotten him 1 title.

And some say it was a pretty easy one.

It's a team game, somebody other than Jamal Murray has to do something. There isn't another all-star even on the roster, and Joker got a title during an era of super teams.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by rdleifriaf

It's a team game, somebody other than Jamal Murray has to do something. There isn't another all-star even on the roster, and Joker got a title during an era of super teams.

What super teams have there been since the 2018 Warriors?

[mc1]

Originally Posted by tjforce

What super teams have there been since the 2018 Warriors?

According to many around here, the Celtics, Lakers, Raptors and Bucks Finals champions were all Super Teams! Stacked and deep with HOF and all-star talent.

[GOATcards]

The superteam era appears to have been from 2008 to 2018 (or late in the 2019 playoffs)

Hopefully the reprieve lasts forever

(Does the '21 Brooklyn Nets experiment qualify? Is it a superteam if the superstars aren't healthy?)

(It is true, '24 BOS probably has the closest to a superteam "feel" since then. Let's not forget the '20 Bubble Lakers. A team having two players who are in the top 5 of the MVP conversation at that time, makes it a good subject of comparison. Maybe then we'd have to speak of '96 CHI as having a superteam "feel," maybe also some Kareem/Magic Lakers? Smaller league then though, less difficult for the most elite players to make 1st team All-NBA or MVP ballot. It looks what counts as a superteam might not have such a clear-cut threshold.)

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by rdleifriaf

It's a team game, somebody other than Jamal Murray has to do something. There isn't another all-star even on the roster, and Joker got a title during an era of super teams.

Wait, what?

You can't have it both ways.

You posted all these metrics, which would suffer if Jokic had a stacked squad like Tatum does (hell Tatum didn't even win the MVP his team is so good).

So now you're saying he isn't winning because he needs more help.

Oh man.

[oldgoldy97]

Leading the league in boards and assists.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

Leading the league in boards and assists.

Wilt
MJ
LeBron
Magic
Bird
Russell
Kareem
Kobe
Duncan
Joker

[boxbuster7]

one more ring would solidify his place. He is clearly the best player in the league and has been for at least 3 years.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by rats60

Wilt
MJ
LeBron
Magic
Bird
Russell
Kareem
Kobe
Duncan
Joker

Kicked out Shaq diesel?!??!!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Kicked out Shaq diesel?!??!!

No, Olajuwon > Shaq.

[the mesiah]

Originally Posted by rats60

No, Olajuwon > Shaq.

Even more outrageous to have joker over Dream,.