PSA no longer represents the best ROI (a data analysis)

[yodel16]

Recently, I've noticed an alarming number of cards coming back from PSA (both vintage and modern) with the N6 minimum size designation and therefore not graded.

I've been grading for decades with all of the different grading companies, and while like everyone don't always get the grades I hope for (or sometimes deserve) the large increase in the frequency of the N6 classifications is concerning as they seem to almost always take place on the cards of major RC's and major stars or other potentially high dollar ROI cards.

I'm curious if others are seeing this same trend on their submissions. Thanks.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by yodel16

Recently, I've noticed an alarming number of cards coming back from PSA (both vintage and modern) with the N6 minimum size designation and therefore not graded.

I've been grading for decades with all of the different grading companies, and while like everyone don't always get the grades I hope for (or sometimes deserve) the large increase in the frequency of the N6 classifications is concerning as they seem to almost always take place on the cards of major RC's and major stars or other potentially high dollar ROI cards.

I'm curious if others are seeing this same trend on their submissions. Thanks.

Getting back a lot of N6s lately. In most cases the cards are less than 1/64 short. Used to be that 1/32 was the tolerance level.

[thestickman1]

I've finally decided to leave PSA for grading until they come back with monthly specials (I won't hold my breath). I collect HOF RCs and many of them are vintage and in the $50-$150 range. So now I'm sending them to SGC. I did my first order the other day. Let's see what happens.

As for modern HOF RC's 1980+, instead of wasting $ and buying a raw card and trying to get lucky (I have gotten lucky many times and spent less than $20 on a raw card and wound up with a card worth over $500), I will now just buy PSA 10 graded cards on many of the modern HOF's. It is cheaper. I've sent in 10 of a player before and they have all gotten 8's and 9's, then cracked them out and resent and they came back 10's. For a $25-$100 card this makes no sense anymore.

Thanks for reading.

[inaka]

Originally Posted by Rpal1977

Do you mean something like this

Attachment 567841

Attachment 567842

Not sure if it's good news or bad news that PSA has been doing this for years. It's nothing new that they just slab the card in any slab lying around.
The most egregious form of this I have ever seen was with my own submission nearly two years ago. I posted about it here.

The two cards on the left, PSA just randomly slabbed in these massive jumbo slabs. LOL wtf? They just arrived like this when I graded them and received the package. The cards on the right are the same size, and a few were from the same order even.



The PSA rep then said there was nothing they could do, how they talked to the "encapsulation manager" and that's how they need to be slabbed. No other options. It was a total lie. I knew the real reason. I looked at my order sheet. It was because the card before these two in my order was an actual jumbo card and thus, that card needed the jumbo slab. The lazy PSA encapsulator just used the same size jumbo slabs for these next two and final cards of my order. These last two were the last cards in the order, right after the jumbo card.

PSA kept saying that's how it was supposed to be, they needed to be jumbos, nothing they could do, cards don't fit in standard slabs, sorry, it's not our fault, etc. (total lie) So I waited.

Then I submitted a new CRC request a while later, and thankfully a different PSA rep sent me a label to send it back to get reholdered. It was simple and they reholdered it correctly no problem. For example, here is the exact same Billy Martin card reholdered in a normal slab, not that jumbo nonsense that PSA told me multiple times was the only option:



It's one of the many reasons why I don't trust PSA, and their customer service is terrible.

[f2tornado]

Originally Posted by Gary

I viewed it the opposite myself,seems hes saying PSA is grading cards that historically would be 1-2 grades higher than they do today....didn't seem he was suggesting the submitter was lacking.or did i misunderstand your post?

He does imply that PSA is more strict these days. He mentions nothing of submitter eye nor do I suggest he did... but with the perception or knowledge that PSA is more strict, the smart person is going to be more particular about what is sent to PSA. If you got a lot of 9s and 10s years ago and are now getting a lot of 7s and 8s, wouldn't you recalibrate your submission standards for that particular TPG?

[Gary]

Originally Posted by f2tornado

He does imply that PSA is more strict these days. He mentions nothing of submitter eye nor do I suggest he did... but with the perception or knowledge that PSA is more strict, the smart person is going to be more particular about what is sent to PSA. If you got a lot of 9s and 10s years ago and are now getting a lot of 7s and 8s, wouldn't you recalibrate your submission standards for that particular TPG?

Ahhhh ok got it,yes agreed people would be a lot more selective on cards sent.

[FT35]

I’d argue that putting a card that should be a 10 in any other slab besides a 10 is not PSA being more “strict” as it is them being more incompetent.

When you have a card that meets the standards of a 10, it needs to be in a 10 slab regardless of card/set/pop report/player/year/etc. otherwise it’s inaccurately graded—or, “wrong.” Not “strict.”

[PLB9eight]

Originally Posted by FT35

I’d argue that putting a card that should be a 10 in any other slab besides a 10 is not PSA being more “strict” as it is them being more incompetent.

When you have a card that meets the standards of a 10, it needs to be in a 10 slab regardless of card/set/pop report/player/year/etc. otherwise it’s inaccurately graded—or, “wrong.” Not “strict.”

Exactly. It’s my biggest gripe with PSA is that a card that meets a certain standard isn’t given that grade. It’s not rocket science.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gary]

Originally Posted by PLB9eight

Exactly. It’s my biggest gripe with PSA is that a card that meets a certain standard isn’t given that grade. It’s not rocket science.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Been long known PSA is incompetent,but what can anyone expect when you have what amounts to fast food workers doing the grading...not likely they will care about their job or work quality.think about most peoples experience with fast food places,how often they get the order wrong....guys dont want to hear it but thats who is grading their cards....

what surprises me most is there isn't more problems.not trying to defend PSA here they suck no doubt,but looking at it from PSA's stand point....they need to grade 1 million plus cards a month.at a price people will pay and meet a turnaround time with fast food workers and get the grades right?seems doomed to failure from the start.

What guys want is SGC grading and turnaround at CGC bulk prices and PSA's roi.......just unrealistic.PSA could cut back to say 500k cards graded a month and right the ship,but soon as they do that everyone would be screaming why does it take 2 years to get my cards back.and they would have to raise prices yet again.they are damned if they do and damned if they dont.

[MJGOAT23]

Originally Posted by Gary

Been long known PSA is incompetent,but what can anyone expect when you have what amounts to fast food workers doing the grading...not likely they will care about their job or work quality.think about most peoples experience with fast food places,how often they get the order wrong....guys dont want to hear it but thats who is grading their cards....

what surprises me most is there isn't more problems.not trying to defend PSA here they suck no doubt,but looking at it from PSA's stand point....they need to grade 1 million plus cards a month.at a price people will pay and meet a turnaround time with fast food workers and get the grades right?seems doomed to failure from the start.

What guys want is SGC grading and turnaround at CGC bulk prices and PSA's roi.......just unrealistic.PSA could cut back to say 500k cards graded a month and right the ship,but soon as they do that everyone would be screaming why does it take 2 years to get my cards back.and they would have to raise prices yet again.they are damned if they do and damned if they dont.

the old adage is there's good, fast and cheap, you can pick 2.

[MavsRChamps]

^^^ Disagree with above points, respectfully. PSA can do it fast and cheap but instead they prioritize paying their CEO's, top of their workforce instead of the people at the bottom doing the vast majority of the actual work (grading).

They get $20 per 1 minute of time to grade a card. Yes factor in shipping, research / ID etc and they still have so much money to work with, then add upcharges etc and money is not an issue. They can pay graders more & increase workforce & have better more accurate graders as a result that care about their job & proper procedures in place to point out graders ... But they choose not to because growing & have satisfied customers is not their *primary* concern. Them making money in ventures outside of actually grading the cards is, and the top employees being rich is their primary goal.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by MavsRChamps

^^^ Disagree with above points, respectfully. PSA can do it fast and cheap but instead they prioritize paying their CEO's, top of their workforce instead of the people at the bottom doing the vast majority of the actual work (grading).

They get $20 per 1 minute of time to grade a card. Yes factor in shipping, research / ID etc and they still have so much money to work with, then add upcharges etc and money is not an issue. They can pay graders more & increase workforce & have better more accurate graders as a result that care about their job & proper procedures in place to point out graders ... But they choose not to because growing & have satisfied customers is not their *primary* concern. Them making money in ventures outside of actually grading the cards is, and the top employees being rich is their primary goal.

In order do what your suggesting PSA would have to double the pay and workers......they are in CA not WV."there's a reason SGC and CGC are in FL" thats also why SGC and CGC can grade at the price they do......could they do it?yes sure they could cut all the top pay ceo types and that wouldn't amount to enough to make a real difference....to do it correctly meet turnaround they would have to get $50 a card min......

yes they are primarily concerned with making money not the customer thats true hence why you see me say PSA is a horrible company a lot.as i said im not defending PSA they suck but it not as simple as most people think to get it right.there are other factors in play here,They are in CA,they drained the talent pool in their area,they grew to large in the CA location,and yes they suck and they are greedy.

look back when PSA graded 300k a month most of the current problems were not there or way less of an issue.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by MJGOAT23

the old adage is there's good, fast and cheap, you can pick 2.

exactly right......and PSA cant meet even 1 of those currently.

[msink28]

Agree on all accounts. The careful, knowledgeable people who can accurately assess condition and have deep institutional knowledge of a bunch of different products are doing something that pays more and is a better use of their time.

Originally Posted by Gary

Been long known PSA is incompetent,but what can anyone expect when you have what amounts to fast food workers doing the grading...not likely they will care about their job or work quality.think about most peoples experience with fast food places,how often they get the order wrong....guys dont want to hear it but thats who is grading their cards....

what surprises me most is there isn't more problems.not trying to defend PSA here they suck no doubt,but looking at it from PSA's stand point....they need to grade 1 million plus cards a month.at a price people will pay and meet a turnaround time with fast food workers and get the grades right?seems doomed to failure from the start.

What guys want is SGC grading and turnaround at CGC bulk prices and PSA's roi.......just unrealistic.PSA could cut back to say 500k cards graded a month and right the ship,but soon as they do that everyone would be screaming why does it take 2 years to get my cards back.and they would have to raise prices yet again.they are damned if they do and damned if they dont.

[inaka]

Geoff Wilson, who to me represents everything wrong with the hobby, posted this upcharge email from PSA on Instagram as a flex, but I don't think he anticipated the comments section to be what it became.

PSA upcharged him $4,048.99 as the grading fee for a card he submitted. LOL

I don't know the card, but he said it's because PSA values the card at $100,000. So they instantly take their $4k grading fee cut.



https://www.instagram.com/p/DP1qtN7EcnU/

Only Geoff can spin this upcharge as such a great thing, likely because he gets preferential treatment in PSA grading in the first place, and one hand washes the other. Argh.

[Gary]

Enough bad things cant happen to that guy.....100% in agreement he is everything wrong with the "hobby".....When DR Beckett (however well meaning at the time) started price guides the hobby was destined to be a investor/speculator market.

Even after this geoff will still have his tongue n nats ass.......that pos cant go bankrupt fast enough.

[SLGSports]

My biggest gripe with upcharges is when they ding you hundreds of dollars for a low grade. I sent in a high-end card, thinking it was a 9, but got a 6 -- which sells for less than raw copies.

So if the idea is to profit share with PSA... why do this when the PSA grade lowers the market value of the card?? Maybe PSA should be paying us in these cases

The math also doesn't add up when you crack out a BGS or SGC card, to switch it to PSA. A BGS 9.5 switching to a PSA 9 is a monetary loss, but PSA upcharges you like there's so much profit here for the customer that they should get part of the action.

[hammerva]

I loved the analogy that he used saying that it is no different than winning something like 5K in a game of blackjack and tipping the dealers $500. I know I am messing up his numbers he used. Either way nothing to show that this hobby isn't straight up gambling than to use a blackjack reference with grading cards

[inaka]

Originally Posted by hammerva

I loved the analogy that he used saying that it is no different than winning something like 5K in a game of blackjack and tipping the dealers $500. I know I am messing up his numbers he used. Either way nothing to show that this hobby isn't straight up gambling than to use a blackjack reference with grading cards

Not only that, this is how stupid his gambling/dealer analogy is in reference to PSA upcharges:

Imagine you win $100k on a hand of blackjack, and then as the dealer is stacking up the chips to pay you out, but first they say, "Sir, in order to actually receive your winnings, you need to tip me $4k right now, otherwise we'll scrap the hand completely."

That's exactly what PSA is doing here. It isn't a tip if you're forced to pay it, and even Vegas grants you your winnings no matter what. The choice to tip your dealer at the blackjack table is yours and not a requirement all.
Just a terrible analogy from an even worse representative of the hobby.

[thenightman]

Look, Geoff Wilson may be a smart investor, at least enough to segway his business investing into what appears to be a profitable sports card endeavor, but he's not a people person. He's, literally, one of the last people you'd ever want arguing for or against something. He doesn't have that skill set.

The dude has a profitable business. If he were to slowly withdraw to behind the scenes, he'd be much better off.

[Dereth]

Originally Posted by yodel16

Recently, I've noticed an alarming number of cards coming back from PSA (both vintage and modern) with the N6 minimum size designation and therefore not graded.

I've been grading for decades with all of the different grading companies, and while like everyone don't always get the grades I hope for (or sometimes deserve) the large increase in the frequency of the N6 classifications is concerning as they seem to almost always take place on the cards of major RC's and major stars or other potentially high dollar ROI cards.

I'm curious if others are seeing this same trend on their submissions. Thanks.

I have definitely noticed this. I have some cards that are known to have consistent issues with being cut small during production, and can't for the life of me get PSA to grade them. I compare them to modern cards and the difference is there but barely noticeable. I've also had other random cards come back N6 that I've resubbed and they come back graded.

[hammerva]

I will agree with Geoff on one thing. If you really don't like this stop using them. The majority of the people who are complaining will use them tomorrow and do it with a smile on their face

[thenightman]

Originally Posted by hammerva

I will agree with Geoff on one thing. If you really don't like this stop using them. The majority of the people who are complaining will use them tomorrow and do it with a smile on their face

I love the “if you don’t like it, don’t pay for it” arguments. Especially later when those same people ask, “Why is PSA not doing the business it used to?”

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by thenightman

Look, Geoff Wilson may be a smart investor, at least enough to segway his business investing into what appears to be a profitable sports card endeavor, but he's not a people person. He's, literally, one of the last people you'd ever want arguing for or against something. He doesn't have that skill set.

The dude has a profitable business. If he were to slowly withdraw to behind the scenes, he'd be much better off.

Like the guy who originally started HGA?

[Blazed]

Originally Posted by inaka

Geoff Wilson, who to me represents everything wrong with the hobby, posted

Only Geoff can spin this upcharge as such a great thing, likely because he gets preferential treatment in PSA grading in the first place, and one hand washes the other. Argh.

How is that possible when the graders don't know whose cards they're grading?