2025 Topps Chrome Marvel

[orion9578]

Originally Posted by glorbgorb

I do NOT like the Topps products thus far, but I have to play devil's advocate a little. 1. On the whole, I think the Topps sketches are "better" than the UD ones. (I am not including Miller in that, who is only name recognition.) Part of that is maybe because less numbers of artists doing less cards. Maybe? 2025 Chrome has 23 artists. With few exceptions, UD had 75 or more. Many times 100 or more. I've also heard that Topps' timelines are more forgiving for the cards to be completed and returned.

Also the odds are longer in the Topps Marvel products than the typical UD products. This means prices are stronger. I create artist signature pages, so I am looking up sketchcards all the time. A Topps sketch that goes for, say, $250, would be $80 on UD stock. As you alluded to, maybe after a dozen sets that changes, but I don't think we'll ever see the sketch-per-box like Rittenhouse did back in the day.

2. The conversation is the same for Cuts. UD, quite honestly, made too many of them. While the issue selection for Topps has, so far, been lackluster, they're making far less.

EDIT: I'll also add I have only picked up base and parallels for my c-tier pc character from Topps, but 3. the quality has been far better than UD. It doesn't really factor in with sketchcards, but they do have that going for them.

1. We MUST be looking at different cards or have vastly different taste, haha. I'm not seeing a big jump in quality, like at all. Are there less of them? Yup. Does that mean that this:



From Topps Mint(Meeks), should sell for $4,000? When this:



From 18MM(Meeks) sells for $1,600~? That was his previous high, over the past 3 years, before the Mint card sold.

So, does something being harder to hit really negate the fact that most of these guys have hundreds of sketches floating around out there?

One instance I will yield you is if a GOOD artist is NEW in a set. In that instance, I get prices being higher than usual. What we're seeing isn't that though. I don't see an uptick in quality. I do understand they're harder to hit but again, why does that matter...to the tune of $2,400 MORE, for a sketch that's not 1/10th as well done?

Maybe you can answer those questions. I can not.

2. Less doesn't always equal better. I'm all for MORE quality cuts, which UD does make, so people can actually collect them. It sounds like you might prefer:



That "1/1" Doom for $6,000 over:



That /65 for $150, the absolute HIGHEST a Doom cut has sold for from UD.

3. The quality of the card is better? You might be right on this one, as I have had 0 Topps Chrome cards in my hands. Are you comparing apples to apples though? Like Topps Chrome quality to say Marvel Platinum? Cause if TC is better quality that Platinum, which has a CRAZY high Gem 10 rate via PSA...then cool, the quality is better

[DynaEtch]

Hey that sketch looks familiar



+1 to the rarity of a sketch or even stock shouldn’t see these large price discrepancies. A sketch to me is about the art quality foremost. In an ideal world that would be the total driver of its value, but it’s not the case. I will grant set stock has historically factored into market value, no question. People probably pay more for Marvel Masterpieces stock, especially 07-08MM era, over say Annual stock for a similar quality sketch. And definitely over PSC’s on non-set stock.

But the discrepancies are large for the Topps era and don’t make sense to me. I do not see any big uptick in art quality. It does make sense from the perspective of flippers/gamblers though, basing prices solely on level of difficulty to hit in a pack, and not much else. To some not really in tune with sketches or valuation…it’s probably as simple as “Hey it’s Dr Doom! Hey it’s 1:500 packs!”…thus it must be a high value sketch, regardless of what the heck it even looks like. The current prices are pretty silly.

Edit: I forgot to add one more hey above…. “Hey…it’s encased!”, as if it’ll add $2k value to a sketch

[orion9578]

Nice display Dyna

The whole thing doesn't make sense. I can't fathom a COLLECTOR getting the choice of the Thanos & $2,400 cash or...the lackluster Iron Man.

Also, how would anyone who "looks up sketch cards all the time" even make the statement that the quality is better... I'd agree that the Topps LOW quality sketch cards ARE seemingly better than UD's low quality sketches, but I think that might boil down to Topps refusing several so they can make them "rare". Almost none of this crap we collect is "rare". It really never was and it probably never will be. They can serial number stuff into oblivion and make the same image "rare", but beyond that...millions and millions of numbered/sketches/comic cuts etc. are floating around at this point.

Then you add in Topps/Fanatics and the antics/hoops you have to go through to even get a single box...No thank you. Not for the price they're asking, not even for 50% of the price they're asking...let alone the secondary prices.

Back collecting UD is where my money will go. Not sure how many "me's" Topps can loss before it's just dudes flipping boxes and singles to each other and collecting absolutely nothing...save perhaps 10-20 guys with a TON of money and nothing better to do with it.

[glorbgorb]

I don't have all the answers, but let's be honest and clear about one thing--that Doom sketch came from a 'limited' Mint product that was only available at SDCC. That carries its own tax of sorts. Trust me, I collect LEGO and those SDCC-exclusive LEGO sets are silly on the secondary market.

Of course, Mint will be a wider release, so my guess is whomever dropped that kind of dough on the Doom did not know that. The backs of the SDCC Mint cards do not indicate SDCC in any way on the cardstock, so I'd guess they are the same as will be in the normal release, whenever that is.

Originally Posted by orion9578

Also, how would anyone who "looks up sketch cards all the time" even make the statement that the quality is better... I'd agree that the Topps LOW quality sketch cards ARE seemingly better than UD's low quality sketches, but I think that might boil down to Topps refusing several so they can make them "rare".

Yeah, I've only been collecting sketchcards since 2008. I don't know what I'm talking about.

[orion9578]

Originally Posted by glorbgorb

I don't have all the answers, but let's be honest and clear about one thing--that Doom sketch came from a 'limited' Mint product that was only available at SDCC. That carries its own tax of sorts. Trust me, I collect LEGO and those SDCC-exclusive LEGO sets are silly on the secondary market.

Of course, Mint will be a wider release, so my guess is whomever dropped that kind of dough on the Doom did not know that. The backs of the SDCC Mint cards do not indicate SDCC in any way on the cardstock, so I'd guess they are the same as will be in the normal release, whenever that is.



Yeah, I've only been collecting sketchcards since 2008. I don't know what I'm talking about.

And I've been collecting, in general, since 1984...doesn't mean I know everything my friend . Your arguments have been poor. Not back up by anything but "I've collected since 2008", from what I can tell. You say you're taking the time to look up sketches every day...and then you're saying the quality is "higher" in Topps...

Here are some examples...Just took the last 5 Topps sketches, since there aren't a ton:

$900

$500

$400

$350

$260


From UD I just did the last 7 days and picked a few out:

$375

$160

$160

$141

$100


You're a collector...what are you spending your hard earned money on? You could have the Beast or basically all 5 UD sketches(You'd owe $36 dollars). I'd hazard a guess that if people didn't KNOW the prices, because I just typed them out, that the Ghost would be the top choice of MOST people...save a Beast collector perhaps?

So, again, make sense of it. You're the expert. Explain without saying "they made less"...when again, 90%+ of these guys have hundreds, if not thousands of sketches out there.

[orion9578]

And another one for the road...because I like driving home a point when I start in on something. Here are your choices:

Option A for $4,000:


Or Option B for $4,000:





Obviously no disrespect to Meeks, guy is one of the best, but c'mon. Make it make sense.

[DynaEtch]

I will offer some middling ground here…I agree with points both of you are making. To orion’s point, I think those topps sketches above are priced way high. To each their own…but I’d not be paying that. That is showing what’s going on with the sketches in the era pretty well.

And I think glorb you’re hitting on the cause exactly- it’s more the “It’s new and it’s Topps”, “it’s SDCC set”, it’s a longer odds hit, and it’s encased. I guess the point I’m getting as is sketches don’t really click with me like that. Im looking at the art and artist..maybe the character, when evaluating sketch value. It just doesn’t matter to me whether it was a longer odds hit, or came from a Topps set etc….but….im not the market.

As to avg sketch quality being up or down…I guess it’s a matter of opinion, no objective answer here. We haven’t had a huge sampling yet from topps but just my personal opinion, I don’t think it’s any up from UD. Granted even UD towards the end was experience a decrease in avg sketch quality. This is all subjective…but I think roughly 2014-2020 seemed like a good time for sketches with UD marvel. Actually 07-2012 (with beginnings) wasnt bad either but many of the 07-08s were black and white, some like them, some don’t.

Anyway…I see points both of you are making. For me, and it sounds like for Orion too…the prices some of these topps sketches are going for don’t make a lot of sense.

The rest of that Thanos display btw (in fairness most of these are APs. But they were all UD, within MM16-MM20 sets).

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by orion9578

And another one for the road...because I like driving home a point when I start in on something. Here are your choices:

Option A for $4,000:


Or Option B for $4,000:





Obviously no disrespect to Meeks, guy is one of the best, but c'mon. Make it make sense.

Heck I’m picking option B…putting a Jusko in it kinda seals that deal pretty darn fast! Not even really close with all those sketches. And this is coming from someone who is a big fan of Meeks’ art (obviously, having bought that Thanos).

[orion9578]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

I will offer some middling ground here…I agree with points both of you are making. To orion’s point, I think those topps sketches above are priced way high. To each their own…but I’d not be paying that. That is showing what’s going on with the sketches in the era pretty well.

And I think glorb you’re hitting on the cause exactly- it’s more the “It’s new and it’s Topps”, “it’s SDCC set”, it’s a longer odds hit, and it’s encased. I guess the point I’m getting as is sketches don’t really click with me like that. Im looking at the art and artist..maybe the character, when evaluating sketch value. It just doesn’t matter to me whether it was a longer odds hit, or came from a Topps set etc….but….im not the market.

As to avg sketch quality being up or down…I guess it’s a matter of opinion, no objective answer here. We haven’t had a huge sampling yet from topps but just my personal opinion, I don’t think it’s any up from UD. Granted even UD towards the end was experience a decrease in avg sketch quality. This is all subjective…but I think roughly 2014-2020 seemed like a good time for sketches with UD marvel. Actually 07-2012 (with beginnings) wasnt bad either but many of the 07-08s were black and white, some like them, some don’t.

Anyway…I see points both of you are making. For me, and it sounds like for Orion too…the prices some of these topps sketches are going for don’t make a lot of sense.

The rest of that Thanos display btw (in fairness most of these are APs. But they were all UD, within MM16-MM20 sets).

I'm almost positive there will be no middle ground. You have $260 dollars to spend...you're at the card show and a dealer gives you two options:

A


Or B



I don't think anyone who COLLECTS is taking A, not in a million years...again, save a huge character collector.

Those are just random UD sketches from the past 7 days. Of course there are garbage UD sketches that are far worse...but they're also priced accordingly. No offense to the artist on the Topps sketch but I wouldn't give someone $20 at a show for it if the stipulation was that I had to keep it.

And his argument is that Topps sketches are higher quality. I don't buy it. And so far his evidence/arguments have been that he has collected since 2008 and looks up sketches every day...

PS. Sweet sketches Dyna, yet again

[orion9578]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

Heck I’m picking option B…putting a Jusko in it kinda seals that deal pretty darn fast! Not even really close with all those sketches. And this is coming from someone who is a big fan of Meeks’ art (obviously, having bought that Thanos).

Yeah...again, that'd be the point. Dead horse but... A NAR, Jusko, Lydi & Fred.Ian that are all...awesome... Or a Meeks, that is cool, but it just is what it is. I'd take any of the 4 I listed OVER the Meeks, more valuable or not, if I was told I had to keep said card.

Haha. I'll leave it at that, but I'd love some responses from the sketch lord...

[orion9578]

I think I'll go ahead and answer my own question...

My opinion is that we're dealing with mostly uneducated buyers. Probably sports guys. Not ALL of these are getting purchased by them, but I suspect some of these are. I can't imagine collectors seeing these options and prices and being the buyers in a lot of cases.

I have nothing against sports guys coming into the hobby. The more the merrier. I started off doing sports cards and still do them to this day, 41~ years later. I just don't see them continually dumping this kind of money into stuff that just isn't worth nearly what they're spending.

I dislike what Topps has done with the Marvel license thus far so much that I guess I've become quasi rude in making a point. Sorry about that glorb. I have nothing against you personally, I don't even know you. Anyone defending or trying to justify prices on these singles, wax and/or their business model just irks me. I'll keep my old man, hate the new stuff attitude out of Topps threads as much as possible...I just feel like I have to say something sometimes. I really do enjoy this hobby and IMO, they are "ruining it".

[premium1981]

Originally Posted by orion9578

I think I'll go ahead and answer my own question...

My opinion is that we're dealing with mostly uneducated buyers. Probably sports guys. Not ALL of these are getting purchased by them, but I suspect some of these are. I can't imagine collectors seeing these options and prices and being the buyers in a lot of cases.

I have nothing against sports guys coming into the hobby. The more the merrier. I started off doing sports cards and still do them to this day, 41~ years later. I just don't see them continually dumping this kind of money into stuff that just isn't worth nearly what they're spending.

I dislike what Topps has done with the Marvel license thus far so much that I guess I've become quasi rude in making a point. Sorry about that glorb. I have nothing against you personally, I don't even know you. Anyone defending or trying to justify prices on these singles, wax and/or their business model just irks me. I'll keep my old man, hate the new stuff attitude out of Topps threads as much as possible...I just feel like I have to say something sometimes. I really do enjoy this hobby and IMO, they are "ruining it".

The frustration is understanding from the personal rip standpoint. But I think a lot of people still do not understand WHY this is happening. The comments against price continue to be about "sports card guys" coming in or horrible value so no one is ripping. You aren't necessarily wrong having that opinion, but it still all feeds back to breakers and how the hobby across the board has changed. Breakers are chewing through these products. Very few, if any, people are dropping $800-$1,000 on a box of this to open themselves. But they will sell all day long for that price because a breaker NEEDS it to feed the people who are foaming at the mouth for $50 spots. And not only is that not stopping any time soon, its getting stronger. You have 200 cards in this checklist. So a $1,000 box is literally $5 a spot (not counting fees and profits). I don't think anyone here would seriously not think there is not an insatiable demand at these prices. All of these boxes will be vacuumed up at the current price points. I was hoping it would come out slow and only sell for $700-$800 but that was wishful thinking. Value is irrelevant. You have to start thinking about breaker demand when looking at product price. It isn't uneducated buyers.

EDIT - Just to add, I jumped over to whatnot just to see, and there are currently 2 breakers ripping 25 Marvel Chrome. And its 9:30 AM on a Thursday morning.

[orion9578]

Originally Posted by premium1981

The frustration is understanding from the personal rip standpoint. But I think a lot of people still do not understand WHY this is happening. The comments against price continue to be about "sports card guys" coming in or horrible value so no one is ripping. You aren't necessarily wrong having that opinion, but it still all feeds back to breakers and how the hobby across the board has changed. Breakers are chewing through these products. Very few, if any, people are dropping $800-$1,000 on a box of this to open themselves. But they will sell all day long for that price because a breaker NEEDS it to feed the people who are foaming at the mouth for $50 spots. And not only is that not stopping any time soon, its getting stronger. You have 200 cards in this checklist. So a $1,000 box is literally $5 a spot (not counting fees and profits). I don't think anyone here would seriously not think there is not an insatiable demand at these prices. All of these boxes will be vacuumed up at the current price points. I was hoping it would come out slow and only sell for $700-$800 but that was wishful thinking. Value is irrelevant. You have to start thinking about breaker demand when looking at product price. It isn't uneducated buyers.

EDIT - Just to add, I jumped over to whatnot just to see, and there are currently 2 breakers ripping 25 Marvel Chrome. And its 9:30 AM on a Thursday morning.

I was specifically talking about singles my friend, not wax. I can't imagine an educated buyer spending X on some of the examples shown above, when they could have Y instead...for a fraction of the cost. That seems like uneducated buyers to me.

I understand that the wax is being bought by breakers and the risk is fractionalized. My issue with Topps is the initial offering of wax to the "public" is like 1%(or less) of the total wax available. The rest seemingly ends up with these breakers and the pump starts and never stops. So, anyone who does enjoy opening is forced to either pay the ridiculous secondary price or join in the pump, where they have almost no shot at hitting anything because the astronomical odds of hitting something are even worse because you've got 1 slot out of 200.

[dd316]

Quality is the same, manufacturer is not. Plus, every year puts us further into an era where it's all "NEW NEW NEW IS BETTER BETTER BETTER!"

[premium1981]

Originally Posted by orion9578

I was specifically talking about singles my friend, not wax.

My fault, I just assumed you were talking about the box prices the way it was worded. In my view, the single prices on pretty everything is horrible. Almost everything trends down with singles while wax trends up. A lot of the stuff going for hundreds or even thousands right now will be worth $10-$50 in a few years. So in that instance, yes, I agree with you completely that anyone buying (who cares at all about value) is definitely uneducated. But, just like with the stock market, that is how peaks are created. Someone is buying at stupid prices and will be left looking back at how bad their purchase was. Or multiple people as it stair steps back down to reality.

[sketchopolix]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

For me, and it sounds like for Orion too…the prices some of these topps sketches are going for don’t make a lot of sense.

I haven't been paying any attention to the Chrome sketch prices but those sales have convinced me to raise all my sketch prices by 20%. Fanatics tariff!

Curious to see what the hike, combined with the huge jump in USPS retail postage rates, does to sales.

[premium1981]

If it helps answer anyone's questions about why so few were made available, Backyard is currently streaming on Whatnot breaking live boxes of 25 Marvel Sapphire. Knock me over with a feather.

EDIT - I'll add to this instead of making another post. The BYB stream is for 5 boxes of sapphire, filled and running now. I tallied their sold prices and these 5 boxes sold for a grand total of $13,811. Even for their standards, that is a mighty large profit margin. Per box price of $2,762 before fees.

[armyml]

Originally Posted by dd316

Quality is the same, manufacturer is not. Plus, every year puts us further into an era where it's all "NEW NEW NEW IS BETTER BETTER BETTER!"

Disagree on the quality. Even outside of Marvel Upper Deck has HORRIBLE QC with their hockey cards. You cant find a box of SPx/Game Used/Metal Universe/EX where EVERY card doesn't have dinged corners and edges. Every single one of them.

People complained about print lines on Topps Chrome but Im guessing(not a manufacturer) that it would be extremely expensive and or time consuming to attempt to produce a set so large with ZERO print lines throughout the product. Aside from that the case I opened had next to no quality issues.

I've been direct with UD as a hobby store for awhile now, Topps not going on a few years so I sell/rip a lot of Topps and UD stuff. I probably request replacements from UD 5x more than I do from Topps on damaged hits.

[LittleJimmies]

Originally Posted by premium1981

If it helps answer anyone's questions about why so few were made available, Backyard is currently streaming on Whatnot breaking live boxes of 25 Marvel Sapphire. Knock me over with a feather.

EDIT - I'll add to this instead of making another post. The BYB stream is for 5 boxes of sapphire, filled and running now. I tallied their sold prices and these 5 boxes sold for a grand total of $13,811. Even for their standards, that is a mighty large profit margin. Per box price of $2,762 before fees.

Just so gross all around. What is wrong with people.

[premium1981]

Originally Posted by LittleJimmies

Just so gross all around. What is wrong with people.

Two "hot chicks" doing the breaks is part of it. They are catering to their audience, and it is working well. They most likely got those boxes around release price direct from Topps, so let's say $2,500 in cost turned into $13,800 in about an hour. That is the exact reason why any and all wax that has any demand at all goes up, and only up. I can't stand to watch it, but I click through random places looking for data. Before I finished adding this break up they had another one posted to run again.

[orion9578]

Originally Posted by premium1981

If it helps answer anyone's questions about why so few were made available, Backyard is currently streaming on Whatnot breaking live boxes of 25 Marvel Sapphire. Knock me over with a feather.

EDIT - I'll add to this instead of making another post. The BYB stream is for 5 boxes of sapphire, filled and running now. I tallied their sold prices and these 5 boxes sold for a grand total of $13,811. Even for their standards, that is a mighty large profit margin. Per box price of $2,762 before fees.

No wonder everything is all out of whack...

Originally Posted by armyml

Disagree on the quality. Even outside of Marvel Upper Deck has HORRIBLE QC with their hockey cards. You cant find a box of SPx/Game Used/Metal Universe/EX where EVERY card doesn't have dinged corners and edges. Every single one of them.

People complained about print lines on Topps Chrome but Im guessing(not a manufacturer) that it would be extremely expensive and or time consuming to attempt to produce a set so large with ZERO print lines throughout the product. Aside from that the case I opened had next to no quality issues.

I've been direct with UD as a hobby store for awhile now, Topps not going on a few years so I sell/rip a lot of Topps and UD stuff. I probably request replacements from UD 5x more than I do from Topps on damaged hits.

Thick or thin stock cards?

I mentioned earlier that I'd have to take the posters word that the quality of the card was better, as I haven't had any TC in hand.

But...I have had 5 genesis cards(Ghost Spider...I like the image...sue me!) in hand. All cards were definitely in good condition, but I wouldn't say they were in any better(or worse) condition than thicker UD cards.

You're a shop owner, so you should know. I seriously have no idea. In my previous post about condition, I wanted to know if they were comparing apples to apples...Topps Chrome Marvel to Marvel Platinum. Much easier to keep those cards in great shape vs thick cards with all sorts of edge issues.

I will say, via opening a metric TON of Marvel Black Diamond...the thin stock cards were mostly in 8+ condition and the thick cards were all over the place. 4's and 5's mixed in with probably 8's max.

I think UD has ALWAYS had issues with thicker cards. Older Exquisite etc. were the same. I remember opening several boxes over the years and they were kind of the same as the BD. 4's-8's, mostly.

[finfangfan]

I’m not sure why “thick cards = premium” ever became a thing to be honest. They are harder to store and as said above, tend to suffer in QC.

[TimBuckTwo]

Originally Posted by orion9578

And another one for the road...because I like driving home a point when I start in on something. Here are your choices:

Option A for $4,000:


Or Option B for $4,000:





Obviously no disrespect to Meeks, guy is one of the best, but c'mon. Make it make sense.

Nar and Jusko. No question.

[hobbystuff]

I feel your frustration with Topps Orion, I actually closed my Topps account once I realized that there is no chance for me to ever buy any wax from Star Wars or Marvel anymore.Just get a frozen website and then sold out.

[Sickleclaw]

Originally Posted by premium1981

If it helps answer anyone's questions about why so few were made available, Backyard is currently streaming on Whatnot breaking live boxes of 25 Marvel Sapphire. Knock me over with a feather.

EDIT - I'll add to this instead of making another post. The BYB stream is for 5 boxes of sapphire, filled and running now. I tallied their sold prices and these 5 boxes sold for a grand total of $13,811. Even for their standards, that is a mighty large profit margin. Per box price of $2,762 before fees.

Yep, the breakers are all that ever get access to the topps product anymore.