Salary Cap/Pending Lockout Thread

[seanbros55]

Originally Posted by BoSoxFan1999

Launch cheapskate Bob Nutting into the sun too.

Why does Bob Nutting have a mouth and chin like the "handler" in Severence?

[Fenway55]

If the owners lock the players out, the players should give a long hard look at decertification.

[Handsome Wes]

Originally Posted by ottobord

Is there an economic problem in the league right now? Honest question. There always is the small market vs big market team issue. Is it getting worse?

My $0.02:

the cheap teams are still being cheap. Marlins are spending as much money today as they were 15 years ago.

The upper echelon teams are spending more, so in one sense there is a greater disparity.

Now, go back to the early 2000s and the Yankees were spending $200 million, which is less than it is today (by a little) but basically the equivalent to what entire teams were worth. There is no way that the Yankees are spending the equivalent of a franchise value (low $1 billions?) today... so in a sense, there is not as much disparity.

I think one of the big issues though is the growing refusal of certain owners to keep pace with increased spending.... and it's not just a small vs. big market thing. Owners of large market franchises - the Angels, teh White Sox, formerly the A's - won't spend... and now we have Hal Steinbrenner of the Yankees and John Henry of the Red Sox - Henry worth $6 billion but since he treats the team like a hedge fund he won't pony up to pay Mookie Betts - are now crying foul because the Dodgers and the Mets and the Phillies and (possibly, I haven't followed the latest ownership drama) Padres and heck even the Blue Jays are handing out $500 million contracts.

[mrmojorisin71]

Just instill a salary floor. Additionally, eliminate revenue sharing as it’s anti-American. If a team can’t generate enough money to meet the floor, then either disband or move the team. Too many rich people handing over a ton of money to other rich people who won’t put in the work to do anything other squander by. Look at the pirates, what a joke. They have a generational talent and refuse to do anything about it. It took the A’s years to sign someone in FA for a decent chunk, but at least they’re moving and hopefully changing the trajectory of the team

[Soxrule111]

IjI have no problem with a lock out. Itll suck, but I expect it.

Also, why should Teams like the White Sox Spend money? They spend top 10 money and no one goes. They spend league low no one goes. They win a World Series and end up like 8th in attendance. They have no reason to spend the money. Its a business, and spending an extra $100m to make people who complain happy but dont go doesnt help The people who do go dont want to pay an extra $25 on their tickets to support the higher payroll.

[ottobord]

Originally Posted by erock28

Short answer, 1000x yes. TV/streaming deals allow for a massive head start to a handful of teams. Hundreds of millions head start. The Dodgers, Mets, Yankees, Braves, etc. will always be able to buy the biggest names so long as MLB allows for individual viewing deals.

But, it is more complicated than that. While my Crew hasn't won a WS...they are the smallest market in baseball and are well on their way to a 7th postseason in 8 years. Their farm system is top 3 in the game. Their player development is arguably the best. The front office seems to always make the right moves. As a result, their present and near future looks VERY rosy. Biggest reason for that is club control for 6 MLB seasons. So long as those rules remain status quo, well run franchises can compete every year.

Ok but wouldn't the biggest economic factor to consider be franchise sales? Seems to me they've been strong. I guess my point is it seems the league is economically profitable for the players and owners. I get the issue with competitive balance and tv streaming deals. It shouldn't be ignored. It would be weird to lock out and or strike over that however.

[Scottish Punk]

I would expect if the owners actually get a salary cap enabled, it will come with a salary floor. Maybe you don't need revenue sharing, but that would depend on how hard the cap actually is. If you can do an Ohanti 700 million dollar signing and defer all of it, than you would need some mechanism to punish that behavior. NBA has the aprons which make everything much more complicated and the NFL salary cap seems to have a ton of wiggle room.

Even without a salary cap and keeping revenue sharing, there needs to be something added to force some of these teams to spend a bit. With enough revenue sharing and cheap roster, that can pay for your entire team. It is like the Dodgers are paying for the Marlins players.

[mrmojorisin71]

Originally Posted by Soxrule111

IjI have no problem with a lock out. Itll suck, but I expect it.

Also, why should Teams like the White Sox Spend money? They spend top 10 money and no one goes. They spend league low no one goes. They win a World Series and end up like 8th in attendance. They have no reason to spend the money. Its a business, and spending an extra $100m to make people who complain happy but dont go doesnt help The people who do go dont want to pay an extra $25 on their tickets to support the higher payroll.

Then they shouldn’t have a team. Real simple.id be willing to be theyre losing money through their nose without revenue sharing. It’s literally the teams with money funding the bottom of the barrel teams just to get by so that the top teams can rack up wins against them. I love baseball, but it’s ridiculous to see rosters like the Rockies, Marlins, white sox, etc…

[mrmojorisin71]

Originally Posted by Scottish Punk

I would expect if the owners actually get a salary cap enabled, it will come with a salary floor. Maybe you don't need revenue sharing, but that would depend on how hard the cap actually is. If you can do an Ohanti 700 million dollar signing and defer all of it, than you would need some mechanism to punish that behavior. NBA has the aprons which make everything much more complicated and the NFL salary cap seems to have a ton of wiggle room.

Even without a salary cap and keeping revenue sharing, there needs to be something added to force some of these teams to spend a bit. With enough revenue sharing and cheap roster, that can pay for your entire team. It is like the Dodgers are paying for the Marlins players.

Does the Ohtani deferral affect the cap space of the dodgers in the future?

[DP77]

Originally Posted by mrmojorisin71

Does the Ohtani deferral affect the cap space of the dodgers in the future?

No. It’s present valued up front.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[erock28]

Originally Posted by ottobord

Ok but wouldn't the biggest economic factor to consider be franchise sales? Seems to me they've been strong. I guess my point is it seems the league is economically profitable for the players and owners. I get the issue with competitive balance and tv streaming deals. It shouldn't be ignored. It would be weird to lock out and or strike over that however.

With teams being privately owned, no one but team upper management knows how profitable they are year over year. While the franchise value tends to grow with each passing season, these are business owners who expect to make a profit annually. Unless you're Steve Cohen, few can afford to lose tens/hundreds of millions a year out of their own pocket.

All that said, the revenue chart for 2024 is public. Dodgers and Yankees are far outliers, followed by the Cubs, Red Sox, Phillies and BRaves. All teams with massive TV deals. The middle of the chart is more telling - 17 teams are within $93MM of each other (317MM-410MM), teams ranked 11 to 27. Most of these teams fall between 35-50% payroll to revenue. One could reasonable expect this cluster of teams probably ranges from minimal profit to modest profit. So 60% of the league are in the same ballpark, and the bottom 3 would likely have revenue in that range if they weren't historically stingy (Athletics, Rays, White Sox). In essence, the top 1/3 of the league, most of whom have TV benefits the others do not, have a large head start on the bottom 2/3.

[marl1220]

I've said it before. MLB should have a hard cap, and a hard minimum payroll amount. Teams that don't meet either requirement can't play until they do.

[Sisk]

The Angels actually spend, they’re near the luxury tax threshold each year. They just spend poorly.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by mrmojorisin71

Just instill a salary floor. Additionally, eliminate revenue sharing as it’s anti-American. If a team can’t generate enough money to meet the floor, then either disband or move the team. Too many rich people handing over a ton of money to other rich people who won’t put in the work to do anything other squander by. Look at the pirates, what a joke. They have a generational talent and refuse to do anything about it. It took the A’s years to sign someone in FA for a decent chunk, but at least they’re moving and hopefully changing the trajectory of the team

You'll end up with probably less than 16 teams then.

[JAM061200]

Originally Posted by mrmojorisin71

Just instill a salary floor. Additionally, eliminate revenue sharing as it’s anti-American. If a team can’t generate enough money to meet the floor, then either disband or move the team. Too many rich people handing over a ton of money to other rich people who won’t put in the work to do anything other squander by. Look at the pirates, what a joke. They have a generational talent and refuse to do anything about it. It took the A’s years to sign someone in FA for a decent chunk, but at least they’re moving and hopefully changing the trajectory of the team

Agree 100% here. Having a salary minimum of say $150M would get these owners to spend therefor putting a proper product on the field for their fans! It's sad to say but Skenes is just building his stock right now. There's no way he's thinking about being a lifelong Pirate seeing how ownership doesn't give a crap about winning. What player wants to be a part of that??

[mrmojorisin71]

Originally Posted by JRX

You'll end up with probably less than 16 teams then.

Good. Then we’ll see actual baseball at the highest level. Not cooper effing Hummel getting the call up bc 18 guys are on the IL. Sooooo many guys not worthy of mlb pt right now.

[mrmojorisin71]

Originally Posted by JAM061200

Agree 100% here. Having a salary minimum of say $150M would get these owners to spend therefor putting a proper product on the field for their fans! It's sad to say but Skenes is just building his stock right now. There's no way he's thinking about being a lifelong Pirate seeing how ownership doesn't give a crap about winning. What player wants to be a part of that??

Accurate and let’s not forget the torque he puts on his elbow with that throwing motion. He’s a TJ waiting to happen.

You should not be rewarded for putting together an inferior product, it’s unamerican and just disgusting. No regular Joe wants to see a millionaire give another millionaire millions just to keep their ass product around for people to not care about.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by mrmojorisin71

Good. Then we’ll see actual baseball at the highest level. Not cooper effing Hummel getting the call up bc 18 guys are on the IL. Sooooo many guys not worthy of mlb pt right now.

The talent pool is deeper now than at any point in the history of the sport.

[mrmojorisin71]

Originally Posted by JRX

The talent pool is deeper now than at any point in the history of the sport.

How so? You might be right but how so?

[erock28]

Originally Posted by mrmojorisin71

How so? You might be right but how so?

Not answering for him, but totally agreed with JRX. These are generational wealth jobs, as such they are highly coveted. Here in the US there is year round travel ball - and kids with wealthy enough parents are lining up hoping Junior can make it to the bigs. The boom of Dominican "baseball factories" has produced more and more high level talent than previous decades/generations. The overall talent level should be getting incrementally better year over year - more people are playing, are playing more often, and are thus getting better.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by mrmojorisin71

How so? You might be right but how so?

Have you followed the world baseball classic? You have more players from the Caribbean, Japan etc than ever before. The talent pool is global now.

[boxbuster7]

Originally Posted by asujbl

There is absolutely going to be a lockout

I’d put Emmanuel Clase money on it

you're just playing devil's advocate to bait me and I will not take it sir

[inaka]

Originally Posted by BoSoxFan1999

Launch cheapskate Bob Nutting into the sun too.

You spelled John Fisher wrong.

[mrmojorisin71]

Originally Posted by JRX

The talent pool is deeper now than at any point in the history of the sport.

I’ll go ahead and agree with you guys, but also say that the disparity in talent from top to bottom may be too big then. I’ve watched enough of the Astros (current IL situation), white sox, Rockies and pirates to believe they have enough talent to make watchable baseball for 30 teams.

[inaka]

Originally Posted by JAM061200

Agree 100% here. Having a salary minimum of say $150M would get these owners to spend therefor putting a proper product on the field for their fans! It's sad to say but Skenes is just building his stock right now. There's no way he's thinking about being a lifelong Pirate seeing how ownership doesn't give a crap about winning. What player wants to be a part of that??

With the way owners work, cheapskates like John Fisher (and others) will find a way around any salary floor, fans be dammed.

i.e. sign someone like Luis Severino for a large contract, and then trade him to another team the same year at the trade deadline where the other club picks up the majority of his contract $$$. Just have a qualifying payroll by opening day, and then dump them. Or some other scheme. Deferred payments that another club picks up, etc.

Cheap owners don't want a salary floor, and rich owners don't want a salary floor either as it creates more competition/bidding for higher prices players. Fans want it rightfully for more competitive play, but MLB has shown time and time again that it's an owner-first league and we're all just living in it, fans be dammed.

Baseball is screwed, no matter what happens.