Hall of Famers We Are Watching in 2020

[Zauron]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Aaron Judge is the hitter equivalent to Jacob deGrom. That is the comparison.

I'm not comparing a position player to a pitcher. What I'm saying is all of these criticisms of deGrom can be applied to Judge. It you want to say the deGrom doesn't have the counting stats yet, neither does Judge, and he won't by the end of the season, assuming he stays healthy.

Judge broke the AL record for homeruns in a season

He has 3 seasons of 50+ homeruns.

Number of players to do that in the past 15 years with multiple seasons of 50+ homeruns:

1 - Aaron Judge

Does DeGrom have ANY record of any sort? No. 2021 he darn sure was looking like he was going to venture into that territory but got hurt.

It is amazing how much you are willing to argue on these boards about DeGrom's candidacy. Nearly everyone is saying he's borderline and likely to get in if he can finish his career strong like he is this year. In no way can you legitimately say he should be a lock based on 3 1/2 seasons of elite pitching.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

It comes down to standards.
If Judge wins his 3rd MVP this year, he's a lock.

The standard is that every 3x MVP not tainted by steroids is
enshrined in Cooperstown regardless of counting stats.

If Judge hits 500 Home Runs, he's a lock.

The standard is that every 500 Home Run Club member not tainted by steroids is enshrined in Cooperstown. That's the importance of him having, now, 340 Home Runs. If everything continues, he'll end the year at 365 and be the fastest to 400 Home Runs at some point next year.

Age and contract are two important factors. Judge is 33 and has 6 years left. In other words, there are a lot of years left. 600 Home Runs is likely with 700 not out of the question.
.

341 about 20 minutes after the posting.....

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

It comes down to standards.
If Judge wins his 3rd MVP this year, he's a lock.

The standard is that every 3x MVP not tainted by steroids is
enshrined in Cooperstown regardless of counting stats.

If Judge hits 500 Home Runs, he's a lock.

The standard is that every 500 Home Run Club member not tainted by steroids is enshrined in Cooperstown. That's the importance of him having, now, 340 Home Runs. If everything continues, he'll end the year at 365 and be the fastest to 400 Home Runs at some point next year.

Age and contract are two important factors. Judge is 33 and has 6 years left. In other words, there are a lot of years left. 600 Home Runs is likely with 700 not out of the question.

As for Degrom and 1700 K's,the only career K milestone that I'm familiar with is Nolan Ryan and 5,000 K's. What is the standard?

The problem he has is that he's 37 with 2 years left on contract with a club option. Unless he finds another gear in his 40's like Nolan Ryan or Justin Verlander, he may not pitch again after this one is up.I'm rooting for him though.

There are no standards.

If you're going to sit here and say you don't care about any type of pitching metrics, maybe you shouldn't comment on pitchers. You say stupid stuff like the only strikeout standard you've ever heard of is 5,000 strikeouts. You couldn't make it any clearer that you have no idea what you're talking about.

There is no standard that 3 MVPs gets you in regardless of counting stats. It's also something Judge hasn't accomplished yet. And honestly, I'm sick of you acting like it's already happened. Especially with your blatant dismissal of the fact that deGrom was on his way to his 3rd CYA in 2021. What a surprise, another thing in common with the 2. By the way, you could pull your same BS and say every 3 time CYA winner is in regardless of counting stats. And save your breath trying to say he's never going to win another. Chris Sale was apparently washed up and injury prone as well and he won one last season.

Look at all of the guys in the Hall with 3 MVPs . Every single one of them blow Judge out of the water in most counting stats. I'm excluding Campanella for 2 obvious reasons, and for a catcher his stats were good enough to get in. The only one under 2000 games played is DiMaggio, who spent 3 years in the military. They all have over 1400 RBI. The fewest hits among them is 2100+.

You want to talk about how 300 homers is important because it shows he's on his way to 500, well people here have mentioned that deGrom needs to get to 2000 strikeouts. So getting to 1700 (faster than anyone) is a good sign he'll get there. And since you're counting on Judge to be healthy his entire contract, I can do the same with Jake, so he should get there on this contract

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by Zauron

Judge broke the AL record for homeruns in a season

He has 3 seasons of 50+ homeruns.

Number of players to do that in the past 15 years with multiple seasons of 50+ homeruns:

1 - Aaron Judge

Does DeGrom have ANY record of any sort? No. 2021 he darn sure was looking like he was going to venture into that territory but got hurt.

It is amazing how much you are willing to argue on these boards about DeGrom's candidacy. Nearly everyone is saying he's borderline and likely to get in if he can finish his career strong like he is this year. In no way can you legitimately say he should be a lock based on 3 1/2 seasons of elite pitching.

Why are you putting qualifiers on Judge? Get out of here with that 15 years BS. Everyone ripped John for it.

Just like everyone wants to claim deGrom doesn't have the counting stats yet, neither does Judge. The double standard is just sad.

AL/NL records are meaningless in terms of the hall of fame. And they've become even more worthless with the introduction of interleague play. Literally the only AL/NL record that ever gets mentioned is AL HR record by those trying to inflate the Judge mysticism

[green4407]

Better career, deGrom or Papelbon?

It's a close one. Pap was a 6x all star and WS champ.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by green4407

Better career, deGrom or Papelbon?

It's a close one. Pap was a 6x all star and WS champ.

Now: deGrom by a mile
When deGrom's career is done: deGrom by 2 miles.

[green4407]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Now: deGrom by a mile

When deGrom's career is done: deGrom by 2 miles.

Who has a better career ERA? Isn't the overall goal of pitching to not allow the other team to score runs?

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by whitmm

There are no standards.

If you're going to sit here and say you don't care about any type of pitching metrics, maybe you shouldn't comment on pitchers. You say stupid stuff like the only strikeout standard you've ever heard of is 5,000 strikeouts. You couldn't make it any clearer that you have no idea what you're talking about.

There is no standard that 3 MVPs gets you in regardless of counting stats. It's also something Judge hasn't accomplished yet. And honestly, I'm sick of you acting like it's already happened. Especially with your blatant dismissal of the fact that deGrom was on his way to his 3rd CYA in 2021. What a surprise, another thing in common with the 2. By the way, you could pull your same BS and say every 3 time CYA winner is in regardless of counting stats. And save your breath trying to say he's never going to win another. Chris Sale was apparently washed up and injury prone as well and he won one last season.

Look at all of the guys in the Hall with 3 MVPs . Every single one of them blow Judge out of the water in most counting stats. I'm excluding Campanella for 2 obvious reasons, and for a catcher his stats were good enough to get in. The only one under 2000 games played is DiMaggio, who spent 3 years in the military. They all have over 1400 RBI. The fewest hits among them is 2100+.

You want to talk about how 300 homers is important because it shows he's on his way to 500, well people here have mentioned that deGrom needs to get to 2000 strikeouts. So getting to 1700 (faster than anyone) is a good sign he'll get there. And since you're counting on Judge to be healthy his entire contract, I can do the same with Jake, so he should get there on this contract

What is it dude? Are you 6-figure deep in Degrom cards or something? Are you a family member of his? You seem incapable of having a healthy debate.

Nonetheless, by standards I mean that with all the current Cooperstown members, there is a minimum standard of some type or statistical milestone.

The facts are this:

Every 500 Home Run Club Member, not tainted by steroids, is in the Hall of Fame. 100%, no ands, ifs or buts.

Every 3x Most Valuable Player (MVP), not tainted by steroids, is inducted into the Hall of Fame. 100%, no ands, ifs or buts.

Sure, he can win it or lose it. We're in the present and its a possibility. No doubt. But guess what, if he never wins one again, he's still got the 500 home run career milestone that'll punch his ticket. If he never achieves either, then sure, we can see if he has a better case than Don Mattingly or Dale Murphy.

But yeah, if you think his current 2025 stats aren't stuff of legend, then you're just in denial.


As for pitchers, it was actually intended as a respectful question to know what they lowest K total was for a HOF pitcher. But since your incapable of having a healthy debate, you responded with your usual irrational self and now have gone all the way down to name-calling.

I mean, it's really a bit nutty as you originally brought up Aaron Judge as a comparison and now internet screaming at me for attempting to comprehend WTH you mean by actually comparing Degrom to Aaron Judge. You did the same with Ohio and the man agreed with you. Maybe go back and read the thread over, take some time to reflect?

Seriously man, I'm really done here now. It's gotta be unhealthy for you. It's the weekend, go grab a beer and go watch a Marvel movie or something. Get away from these boards for awhile. It's really not that serious.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by green4407

Who has a better career ERA? Isn't the overall goal of pitching to not allow the other team to score runs?

What's the goal of hitting?

[green4407]

Originally Posted by whitmm

What's the goal of hitting?

Go ahead you can type it: Papelbon is better than deGrom

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

What is it dude? Are you 6-figure deep in Degrom cards or something? Are you a family member of his? You seem incapable of having a healthy debate.

Nonetheless, by standards I mean that with all the current Cooperstown members, there is a minimum standard of some type of statistical milestone.

The facts are this:

Every 500 Home Run Club Member, not tainted by steroids, is in the Hall of Fame. 100%, no ands, ifs or buts.

Every 3x Most Valuable Player (MVP), not tainted by steroids, is inducted into the Hall of Fame. 100%, no ands, ifs or buts.

Sure, he can win it or lose it. We're in the present and its a possibility. No doubt. But guess what, if he never wins one again, he's still got the 500 home run career milestone that'll punch his ticket. If he never achieves either, then sure, we can see if he has a better case than Don Mattingly or Dale Murphy.

But yeah, if you think his current 2025 stats aren't stuff of legend, then you're just in denial.


As for pitchers, it was actually intended as a respectful question to know what they lowest K total was for a HOF pitcher. But since your incapable of having a healthy debate, you responded with your usual irrational self and now have gone all the way down to name-calling.

I mean, it's really a bit nutty as you originally brought up Aaron Judge as a comparison and now internet screaming at me for attempting to comprehend WTH you mean by actually comparing Degrom to Aaron Judge.

Seriously man, I'm really done here now. It's gotta be unhealthy for you. It's the weekend, go grab a beer and go watch a Marvel movie or something. It's really not that serious.

Yeah, you can't ignore the entire body of work. The idea that all of those with 3 MVPs are in because of that and absolutely nothing else is flat out wrong.

If you want to say something is a standard, then everyone in the hall needs to have met that mark. Since not every player has met those numbers, it's not a standard.

I never said what Judge is doing isn't incredible. What I said was that Aaron Judge is the position player equivalent to Jacob deGrom. Because every single argument that has been used against deGrom could be used against judge. That doesn't mean sit here and tell me that Judge is better or that pitchers and hitters are different. That means if you take the argument made against degrom and put it into hitting terms, it fits Judge.

The fact that you think saying the only standard you know for pitchers is 5000 strikeouts shows how little you know. So yeah, maybe sit the debate out

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by green4407

Go ahead you can type it: Papelbon is better than deGrom

He's not.

[green4407]

Originally Posted by whitmm

He's not.

Looks like you're sitting this one out.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by green4407

Looks like you're sitting this one out.

Isn't the goal of offense to score runs? So, do you want to use runs scored or RBI?

I'll save you the time and end your stupid little game you're trying to play. Whatever you say I'm going to be able to find a lesser player with better career numbers than Judge.

[green4407]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Isn't the goal of offense to score runs? So, do you want to use runs scored or RBI?



I'll save you the time and end your stupid little game you're trying to play. Whatever you say I'm going to be able to find a lesser player with better career numbers than Judge.

What does Aaron Judge have to do with Jonathan Papelbon being better than Jacob deGrom?

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by green4407

What does Aaron Judge have to do with Jonathan Papelbon being better than Jacob deGrom?

What's the goal of offense?

Or are you going to sit this one out?

The goal of pitching is to win games. deGrom has more wins, therefore he's better.

[green4407]

Originally Posted by whitmm

What's the goal of offense?

Or are you going to sit this one out?

The goal of pitching is to win games. deGrom has more wins, therefore he's better.

Go ahead you can type it: Papelbon is better than deGrom.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by green4407

Go ahead you can type it: Papelbon is better than deGrom.

The goal of pitching is to not let hitters get on base, deGrom is better.

[green4407]

Originally Posted by whitmm

The goal of pitching is to not let hitters get on base, deGrom is better.

Wrong, sorry.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by green4407

Wrong, sorry.

You asked who the better player was, I answered.

I don't agree with your idea of determining the better player can be decided by who has a lower ERA. The idea of "better career" involves looking at the full body of work.

[whitmm]

Better pitching career: Papelbon or Jake Cronenworth?

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Yeah, you can't ignore the entire body of work. The idea that all of those with 3 MVPs are in because of that and absolutely nothing else is flat out wrong.

You're literally making stuff up now. It's irrational. I never stated that ANYONE should ignore the full body of work. A full body of work comes with a long, healthy and consistent career. The winners of 3 MVP's usually have long, healthy, consistent careers. 29 players have achieved 500 Home Runs All-time and guess what, that's a full body of work over a long, healthy, consistent career. A full body or work comes with those career milestones. You'd be strange to think otherwise.

Clearly I've misused the word "standard" when I should have used "career milestone" or similar.

As for Nolan Ryan and 5,000 K's, its clearly a milestone. Obviously it'll be almost impossible for anyone to attain that number again. Again, the standard question was not rhetorical but legit and based on what you stated, members feel the minimum standard is 2,000ks. That's the answer I was looking for. That is all, easy day.

Please do not misquote me or make up things that I did not say.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

You're literally making stuff up now. It's irrational. I never stated that ANYONE should ignore the full body of work. A full body of work comes with a long, healthy and consistent career. The winners of 3 MVP's usually have long, healthy, consistent careers. 29 players have achieved 500 Home Runs All-time and guess what, that's a full body of work over a long, healthy, consistent career. A full body or work comes with those career milestones. You'd be strange to think otherwise.

As for Nolan Ryan and 5,000 K's, the "standard" question was not rhetorical. Obviously it'll be almost impossible for anyone to attain that number again. But based on what you stated, members feel the minimum standard is 2,000ks. That's the answer I was looking for. That is all, easy day.

Please do not misquote me or make up things that I did not say.

3 MVPs makes you a lock, no ifs, ands, or buts.

That is what you said. Apparently you don't know what it means. Let me break it down. That "and" means you don't add anything else to it. As in "3 MVPs AND a full body of work."

Yeah, I'm not misquoting you champ.

Yup, 3 time MVP winners usually have long, healthy, and consistent careers. Aaron Judge doesn't. If he wins it this year, it will be 3 in 4 years. He hasn't had a healthy career. His consistency of full HOF worthy seasons is only 5 seasons.

You said he is a lock if he wins his third this year. Sorry, but his full body of work doesn't compare to those others with 3 MVPs.

What really strange is you having some very strong opinions on deGrom when you basically said you know very little about the pitching side of game. If you want to talk about pitching, especially in today's game, you have to be willing to look at the metrics. The days of just looking at the basic counting stats are in the past.

[whitmm]

Archangel, do you consider Mike Trout a lock? Now, I don't know you're definitely of lock, but I would consider it to mean 1st ballot

I will point out, there are multiple players on the 3 x MVP list that didn't get in on the first ballot. It took Jimmie Foxx 7 tries

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by whitmm

3 MVPs makes you a lock, no ifs, ands, or buts.

That is what you said. Apparently you don't know what it means. Let me break it down. That "and" means you don't add anything else to it. As in "3 MVPs AND a full body of work."

Yeah, I'm not misquoting you champ.

Yup, 3 time MVP winners usually have long, healthy, and consistent careers. Aaron Judge doesn't. If he wins it this year, it will be 3 in 4 years. He hasn't had a healthy career. His consistency of full HOF worthy seasons is only 5 seasons.

You said he is a lock if he wins his third this year. Sorry, but his full body of work doesn't compare to those others with 3 MVPs.

Now you're being childish and playing semantics. Why is it difficult for you to comprehend that EVERY 3X MVP, not tainted by steroids, is in the HOF?

I expect him to win the 2025 MVP. Sure, he could be injured but that's the game. Additionally I expect him to play the remainder of his contract. Its 6 years and a lot of money. Even if he misses 25% of the remaining games, that's still over 750 games left for immortality. He WILL have a long, healthy, consistent career when it all said and done. If he doesn't it means he woke up with cataracts and went blind like Kirby Puckett or died. Either way, I'd wager he gets voted in.

Originally Posted by whitmm

What really strange is you having some very strong opinions on deGrom when you basically said you know very little about the pitching side of game. If you want to talk about pitching, especially in today's game, you have to be willing to look at the metrics. The days of just looking at the basic counting stats are in the past.

You're making sh*t up again. Stop with the BS. I never said I know "very little". Your interpretation is irrational and skewed I actually do look at advanced metrics. FIP,WHIP and DIP aren't going to change my mind. I still don't believe he's a FHOF as is. You surely aren't going to change my mind. Only Jacob Degrom and his performance the next 2-3 years will.

Carry on with your plan of the day and sorry to the rest of the members that have to read the 20 pages of this dumb sh*t. Haha