Hall of Famers We Are Watching in 2020

[rwperu34]

The flip side is deGrom pitched at a time when Kershaw, Scherzer, and Verlander were still in their peak and was easily considered the best pitcher game.

[jdandns]

Let's not get carried away.

Kershaw's ERA from 2013 to 2016, a four season season stretch in which he missed about 18 total starts, was well under 2.

DeGrom had exactly one full season of that upper echelon excellence, 2018, when he had a 1.7 ERA. Blake Snell put up a 1.89 that year. Plus, Verlander and Scherzer both had a lower WHiP than deGrom, so he had some competition for best-in-the-business even that incredible season which was his first Cy Young year.

For his second title, he didn't win the NL ERA title. Hyun Jin Ryu did and Jack Flaherty had the lowest NL WHiP.

2021 might have been truly historic for him, but we'll never know as he got hurt mid-way through it. Only 48 starts over the past (nearly) 4.5 seasons has definitely derailed deGrom from joining the all-time greats at this point.

I hope he gets in, but I think he has more to do to make it a lock.

[Handsome Wes]

For Boston fans out there, any of the newly-promoted prospects have a shot at being added to the list?

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Are we really in the year 2025 clinging to wins as an important pitcher stat?

In 2018-19, deGrom made 64 starts, 421 innings, allowed 107 total runs (2.05 ERA), and had a W/L record of 21-17. In 7 of those losses, he went 7+ and gave up 3 or less runs. He had 13 no decisions where he went 7+ and allowed 1 or 0 runs.

Yeah, the writers saw through that, because he won the CYA both seasons. So, if you don't think that the writers are going to start looking past wins as a standard, I don't know what to tell you.

I totally agree with you as to the uselessness of wins as a evaluative stat.

But the question you asked was about historical standards....not what those standards might be right now. So that's the question I answered.

Right now, I think stats like career WAR are probably replacing Wins as the stat used to measure success over a long period of time.

The minimum WAR total seems to be 60 WAR, with only Hunter, Lemon, and Ford being elected by the BBWAA with totals lower than than (the last being Hunter in 1987).

De Grom is at 47.4 right now, so that lines up with the idea that he'll need a few more healthy seasons to have the longevity needed to get elected.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by mfw13

I totally agree with you as to the uselessness of wins as a evaluative stat.

But the question you asked was about historical standards....not what those standards might be right now. So that's the question I answered.

Right now, I think stats like career WAR are probably replacing Wins as the stat used to measure success over a long period of time.

The minimum WAR total seems to be 60 WAR, with only Hunter, Lemon, and Ford being elected by the BBWAA with totals lower than than (the last being Hunter in 1987).

De Grom is at 47.4 right now, so that lines up with the idea that he'll need a few more healthy seasons to have the longevity needed to get elected.

I asked that because you said if there aren't any pitchers from this era that meet the historical standards. That implies that we're still using those outdated standards, or should be using them.

You also asked why they need to take a changed game into account? Because the game is different. The whole point of the hall is to recognize the best players of their generation. It doesn't matter that deGrom's stats don't match up against Cy Young or Bob Feller.

[hatchd]

Are we really doing this DeGrom #@#@#@#@ again?


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[Skipscards]

While I agree pitcher wins is a diminished stat in the modern world, it is not completely irrelevant. And I am not confident the BBWAA would support a pitcher with 90 wins. Again, he simply just needs to keep pitching.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by rwperu34

The flip side is deGrom pitched at a time when Kershaw, Scherzer, and Verlander were still in their peak and was easily considered the best pitcher game.

It's going to be hard for anyone to take you serious when you post nonsense like this. There are two peaks below. One of them has 2 World Series Championships and 3 Cy Young Awards. We know who it's not.

[jdandns]

Originally Posted by hatchd

Are we really doing this DeGrom #@#@#@#@ again?


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Who can say if deGrom gets in? Or what hat he's in?
Only time.
Who knows?
Only time.

[Archangel1775]

The word picture just doesn't show that Jacob Degrom was "easily" the best pitcher during his peak. In 2018, best overall pitcher, sure, but in 2019, Justin Verlander, who won the AL Cy Young, had better overall numbers. Heck, the more I look at, DeGrom reminds me of Tim Lincecum's career, except for the 3 World Series Championships. You have 2 years of dominance and then that's it with a few bright spots here and there. Which is probably why many here believe he needs a few more solid years. This year is a good start.

2014- Best Pitcher and Overall Player: Clayton Kershaw: MVP1, Cy Young 1

2015- Clayton Kershaw NLCY3 (101 Points)
Max Scherzer NLCY5 (32 Points)
Jacob DeGrom NLCY7 (7 Points)


2016 - Max Scherzer NL Cy Young 1 (192 Points)
Justin Verlander AL Cy Young 2 (132 Points)
Clayton Kershaw NLCY5 (30 Points)
Jacob DeGrom UNR (0 Points)

2017- Max Scherzer NL Cy Young 1 (201 Points)
Clayton Kershaw NL CY2 (126 Points)
Justin Verlander AL CY5 (32 Points)
Jacob DeGrom NL CY8 (2 Points)

2018 - Jacob Degrom Cy Young 1

2019 - Jacob DeGrom Cy Young 1
Justin Verlander Al Cy Young 1

2020 - Covid Year - CY3
NL Voting Results
Trevor Bauer (CIN): 27 (1st-place votes), 3 (2nd) - 201 points
Yu Darvish (CHC): 3 (1st), 24 (2nd), 2 (3rd) - 123 points
Jacob deGrom (NYM): 3 (2nd), 23 (3rd), 4 (4th) - 89 points

AL Voting Results
Shane Bieber (CLE): 30 (1st-place votes) - 210 points
Kenta Maeda (MIN): 18 (2nd), 4 (3rd), 2 (4th), 4 (5th) - 92 points
Hyun Jin Ryu (TOR): 4 (2nd), 7 (3rd), 5 (4th), 4 (5th) - 51 points

2021 - Injured - Games Started: 15
2022 - Injured - Games Started: 11
2023 - Injured - Games Started: 6
2024 - Injured - Games Started: 3

[Handsome Wes]

I am one of the biggest deGrom fans on the planet. I love the Mets. I have two signed Mets jerseys in my office. A highlight of my professional life was meeting Darryl Strawberry, and later, RA Dickey. I am a person forever salty for trading away Scott Kazmir.

I am the type of irrationally exuberant fan that will champion my team and my players.

If I was a BBWAA writer (which I am not, as they have turned down my application), I would easily vote for Jacob deGrom, just as I would easily vote for David Wright.

But honestly, he probably needs at least 2 1/2 more All-Star caliber seasons before he should be considered (the guy only has 90 career wins!), which is not great for a guy who is about to turn 37 years old and has a terrible track record with injuries.

[49ersSF]

Paul Skenes has a career 0.902 WHIP and a 1.93 career ERA, which are currently the greatest of all time. He just surpassed 200 innings pitched, which should be enough for HoF entry on the first ballot if he were to retire today.

*based on Jacob deGrom Hall of Fame analytics.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

Paul Skenes has a career 0.902 WHIP and a 1.93 career ERA, which are currently the greatest of all time. He just surpassed 200 innings pitched, which should be enough for HoF entry on the first ballot if he were to retire today.

*based on Jacob deGrom Hall of Fame analytics.

Incorrect. Skenes wouldn't be eligible to be inducted to the HOF if he were to retire today. There's only one requirement to be eligible, 10 MLB seasons.

According to the other side, Skenes has no shot anyway because he's never going to win enough games. Heck, at this rate, he might end up with a losing record for his career.

[f2tornado]

Originally Posted by whitmm

According to the other side, Skenes has no shot anyway because he's never going to win enough games. Heck, at this rate, he might end up with a losing record for his career.

Lee Smith, Trevor Hoffman, Bruce Sutter, and Rollie Fingers say, "hold my beer". Yeah, they were relievers, but got in under .500 win %. Nolan Ryan has the worst modern W-L% for starters in the Hall at .526.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by f2tornado

Lee Smith, Trevor Hoffman, Bruce Sutter, and Rollie Fingers say, "hold my beer". Yeah, they were relievers, but got in under .500 win %. Nolan Ryan has the worst modern W-L% for starters in the Hall at .526.

Odds are stacked against you when your two main options are Save or Loss for relievers.

[49ersSF]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Incorrect. Skenes wouldn't be eligible to be inducted to the HOF if he were to retire today. There's only one requirement to be eligible, 10 MLB seasons.

According to the other side, Skenes has no shot anyway because he's never going to win enough games. Heck, at this rate, he might end up with a losing record for his career.

But isn't the argument being made by the deGrom people that these old ideas/requirements should not be considered when discussing any pitchers 2014 and on?

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Incorrect. Skenes wouldn't be eligible to be inducted to the HOF if he were to retire today. There's only one requirement to be eligible, 10 MLB seasons.

And this is a loophole big enough to drive an 18-wheeler through, since it makes no mention of how often a player needs to play in each season.

Theoretically, someone could be HOF-eligible by facing one batter or having one plate appearance per season for ten years.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by mfw13

And this is a loophole big enough to drive an 18-wheeler through, since it makes no mention of how often a player needs to play in each season.

Theoretically, someone could be HOF-eligible by facing one batter or having one plate appearance per season for ten years.

Not could be, would be. It's not a loophole.

But the comment said us pro deGrom people would say Skenes is 1st ballot HOF if he retired today.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

But isn't the argument being made by the deGrom people that these old ideas/requirements should not be considered when discussing any pitchers 2014 and on?

Ideas and requirements are different things. There has never been any stat requirement to be eligible.

Those ideas came from looking and noting that "oh, every pitcher that has won 300 games has gotten in." But there are other pitchers that got in with less, so it's not a requirement. There are also 300 game winners that didn't get in on the 1st ballot, so it didn't even make them a "lock."

If Paul Skenes retired today, his name would never appear on a HOF ballot. Unless he joined the BBWAA.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Heck, the more I look at, DeGrom reminds me of Tim Lincecum's career, except for the 3 World Series Championships. You have 2 years of dominance and then that's it with a few bright spots here and there.

If his career is 2 years of dominance and thats it, how is he first all time in ERA, first all time in WHIP, top 5 all time in K/9, first all time in K/BB ratio, first all time in Quality Start %, first all time in War/inning.

He's literally allowed 1 ER or less in 1/2 of his starts and is all time leader for virtually every non counting stat that exists for evaluating pitchers
fand your takeaway is he had 2 great years and thats is.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

If his career is 2 years of dominance and thats it, how is he first all time in ERA, first all time in WHIP, top 5 all time in K/9, first all time in K/BB ratio, first all time in Quality Start %, first all time in War/inning.

He's literally allowed 1 ER or less in 1/2 of his starts and is all time leader for virtually every non counting stat that exists for evaluating pitchers
fand your takeaway is he had 2 great years and thats is.

You're convincing yourself that I'm making a point that you think I'm making. The easy answer is because he's injured all the time.

The context of the statement was in response to the statement made by your compadre that Jacob DeGrom was the best pitcher in the MLB during his peak "easily". That peak has essentially been his rookie year in 2014 to 2020 because it falls off a cliff after 2020. The word picture, statistic picture and award picture just doesn't show that he was "easily" the best pitcher during his peak unless that peak was just 2018. As stated, in 2019, Justin Verlander, who won the other Cy Young had a better statistical year leading in many of the important categories and also lead the Astros to the World Series. So there is nothing "easy" about DeGrom being the best pitcher in 2019. That is all. Carry on with your random stat GOAT thing. Also, I thought you said Mason Miller lead everyone in everything.

[whitmm]

In 2019, Justin Verlander wasn't even the best pitcher on his own team.

Carry on

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

If his career is 2 years of dominance and thats it,

how is he first all time in ERA,

I had to look it up but he's listed at #43 and I'm assuming you're talking about Active Pitchers, so the next man listed is Clayton Kershaw at #46

Jacob DeGrom (12 Seasons,37 Years Old) 2.500 ERA in 1443.1 Innings Pitched

Clayton Kershaw (18 Seasons, 37 Years Old) 2.514 ERA in 2763.1 Inning Pitched

Though both have a great ERA it's clear which is more impressive. I'm not digging any further with your questions as the bottom line is likely going to be the same, that he's gotta stay on the field.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by whitmm

In 2019, Justin Verlander wasn't even the best pitcher on his own team.

Carry on

Honestly, I didn't watch them closely in 2019 but history says otherwise.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

I had to look it up but he's listed at #43 and I'm assuming you're talking about Active Pitchers, so the next man listed is Clayton Kershaw at #46

Jacob DeGrom (12 Seasons,37 Years Old) 2.500 ERA in 1443.1 Innings Pitched

Clayton Kershaw (18 Seasons, 37 Years Old) 2.514 ERA in 2763.1 Inning Pitched

Though both have a great ERA, it's clear which is more impressive. I'm not digging any further with your questions as the bottom line is likely going to be the same, that he's gotta stay on the field.

Does he need to be good, or just stay healthy?

Give me what you think the rest of his career needs to look like to make the HOF in your mind.

Like if he's 2021-2025 Charlie Morton, does that get him in?