Panini vs Fanatics suit

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by LondonGames

How is what Fanatics doing any different than what Panini did when it kicked Topps out of making licensed NFL & NBA?

I can cut-and-paste a previous post of mine to answer your question (please be aware that many of these allegations are the ones Panini levelled at Fanatics in their court filings).

They've grabbed exclusivity to all 3 U.S. team sports licenses, both the League and Players. They bought the printing company that makes Panini's product. They used unethical means to entice Panini employees to join them. They are mandating all sorts of rules for retailers (i.e. retailers may only stock Fanatics products if they want access). The Leagues, and the NFLPA, all have an equity stake in Fanatics.

So it really seems as though Fanatics took an already-legally-dubious practice and turned it up into overdrive.

[slyguy]

Originally Posted by MyckKabongo

Great news. I would love to see competition in the trading card market.

That'd be the dream, yeah.

Won't happen. (and if it did, prepare for a race to the bottom... overprints central)

Sports is getting to be such a big $$$ thing that the logistics are rough.
The companies would have to share photo shoots (caches?), auto sessions, etc.
That just won't happen.
Teams and leagues want exclusive contracts for TV nights, merch, cards, shoes, whatever. It saves time.

But hey, Fanatics has an endless supply of "not from any specific game or event" jerseys/hats/etc

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by slyguy

That'd be the dream, yeah.

Won't happen. (and if it did, prepare for a race to the bottom... overprints central)

Sports is getting to be such a big $$$ thing that the logistics are rough.
The companies would have to share photo shoots (caches?), auto sessions, etc.
That just won't happen.
Teams and leagues want exclusive contracts for TV nights, merch, cards, shoes, whatever. It saves time.

But hey, Fanatics has an endless supply of "not from any specific game or event" jerseys/hats/etc

There is no reason we can't return to the situation we had 15 years ago. There are no "logistics" in play today that didn't exist back then.

Each brand could have their overprinted base set, a nicer "chrome" set, an "SP" or "Ultimate Collection", etc....

[rmw10]

I would be shocked if anything other than Fanatics taking over officially happens, regardless of the lawsuits. There are far larger "monopolies" out there that the courts turn a blind eye to already. Sports cards isn't going to be the one that rocks the boat. The league wants Fanatics - they're going to get Fanatics.

[slyguy]

Originally Posted by rmw10

I would be shocked if anything other than Fanatics taking over officially happens, regardless of the lawsuits. There are far larger "monopolies" out there that the courts turn a blind eye to already. Sports cards isn't going to be the one that rocks the boat. The league wants Fanatics - they're going to get Fanatics.

This suit is nothing new... years old. It was filed back when NFLPA went to Fanatics and terminated the Panini deal.

It'll go nowhere.

Yes, league dictates what they do for any $$ deal. Brands need NFL, not the other way around.

[rmw10]

Originally Posted by slyguy

This suit is nothing new... years old. It was filed back when NFLPA went to Fanatics and terminated the Panini deal.

It'll go nowhere.

Yes, league dictates what they do for any $$ deal. Brands need NFL, not the other way around.

I'm aware of that. I'm largely saying that by the end of this almost no matter the rulings, it will result in Fanatics being the sole manufacturer. There are still likely years before any decision would be made. By that point, Fanatics is already in and Panini is probably willing to settle because their money making ability is gone.

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by slyguy

This suit is nothing new... years old. It was filed back when NFLPA went to Fanatics and terminated the Panini deal.

It'll go nowhere.

For a lawsuit that'll "go nowhere," Panini is doing pretty well in pre-trial motions.

[rmw10]

Originally Posted by Fenway55

For a lawsuit that'll "go nowhere," Panini is doing pretty well in pre-trial motions.

And even if Panini wins, Fanatics files an appeal and keeps producing. Panini is then continuing on a legal battle while not producing. The money dries up or doesn't make sense to spend at some point.

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by rmw10

And even if Panini wins, Fanatics files an appeal and keeps producing. Panini is then continuing on a legal battle while not producing. The money dries up or doesn't make sense to spend at some point.

1) Panini isn't some mom and pop organization. They are an international corporation with about $750 million in annual revenue. If they win, they ain't going to go bankrupt during the appeals process.

2) Of course they can continue producing. Even if it is only unlicensed stuff, they can keep producing cards if they want.

3) If they win, then usually (key word: usually not always) the winner gets to have their way while the appeal is pending. Fanatics would have to request a stay on the ruling which IMHO would be a very, very long shot. IOW, Panini would be allowed to negotiate a new deal with the Leagues and Unions and continue business operations.

[rmw10]

Originally Posted by Fenway55

1) Panini isn't some mom and pop organization. They are an international corporation with about $750 million in annual revenue. If they win, they ain't going to go bankrupt during the appeals process.

2) Of course they can continue producing. Even if it is only unlicensed stuff, they can keep producing cards if they want.

3) If they win, then usually (key word: usually not always) the winner gets to have their way while the appeal is pending. Fanatics would have to request a stay on the ruling which IMHO would be a very, very long shot. IOW, Panini would be allowed to negotiate a new deal with the Leagues and Unions and continue business operations.

I was being slightly facetious and probably should have been a little more direct on that.

Remember the burden of proof is on Panini here. They've done well to this point but they're approaching the most difficult and most expensive part of these cases.

Anything other than Fanatics being the sole provider of cards come the time the licenses end would be a shock.

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by rmw10

I was being slightly facetious and probably should have been a little more direct on that.

Remember the burden of proof is on Panini here.

It falls on Panini to establish a preponderance of the evidence. They don't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt like in a criminal court.

Originally Posted by rmw10

They've done well to this point but they're approaching the most difficult and most expensive part of these cases.

Not sure I agree with that. Sometimes the pre-trial motions are the most difficult parts of these cases.

Based on what we've seen so far, the Judge obviously thinks Panini has a strong case. That's not a bad position to be in.

[rms13]

Apparently Panini is the largest publisher of children magazines, books, comics, manga and graphic novels in Europe and Latin America. So they still have that and soccer which is what they did before they had the NFL and NBA

[rmw10]

Originally Posted by Fenway55

It falls on Panini to establish a preponderance of the evidence. They don't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt like in a criminal court.
Not sure I agree with that. Sometimes the pre-trial motions are the most difficult parts of these cases.

Based on what we've seen so far, the Judge obviously thinks Panini has a strong case. That's not a bad position to be in.

It's not a simple 'is it a monopoly or is it not' type of case. Monopolies in and of themselves are not illegal. It's on Panini to prove that Fanatics violated antitrust laws in order to gain these exclusives. That's a tough sell when the leagues and the associated players associations all have basically said they want Fanatics. And Fanatics has arguably the easiest argument there - that they won by innovation. And that's hard to argue. The debut patch idea in MLB has been a huge boost for that market. They have relationships with the leagues and the players that Panini simply doesn't. Of course, there's much more to it than those couple of things.

But that's where it gets super expensive. Both sides are about to submit a mountain of evidence for discovery. Lawyer fees are about to explode far beyond what they have been. This is still pre-trial stuff.

Panini has some wins right now for sure, but they have largely been on the continuation front. They have enough evidence to proceed, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have enough evidence to win. And they might. It would be a massive upset if they do though.

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by rmw10

It's not a simple 'is it a monopoly or is it not' type of case.

Yes I know, and I never said it was that easy. In fact, the court already said Fanatics enjoy monopoly power but obviously there is more to decide.

Originally Posted by rmw10

Monopolies in and of themselves are not illegal.

True, but they do very much tend to be illegal far more often than not. Most of your legal monopolies involve necessary public services where the infrastructure is so huge that it just isn't practical to have competition (i.e. utilities, railroads, the mail).

A small consumer product is a textbook example of a place where a monopoly would not be allowed.

Originally Posted by rmw10

It's on Panini to prove that Fanatics violated antitrust laws in order to gain these exclusives. That's a tough sell when the leagues and the associated players associations all have basically said they want Fanatics. And Fanatics has arguably the easiest argument there - that they won by innovation. And that's hard to argue. The debut patch idea in MLB has been a huge boost for that market. They have relationships with the leagues and the players that Panini simply doesn't. Of course, there's much more to it than those couple of things.

Those relationships are working against Fanatics, not in favor. By the Leagues and Players having an ownership stake in Fanatics, it will be very easy to demonstrate that they did not offer a fair process for shopping out the licenses.

Originally Posted by rmw10

But that's where it gets super expensive. Both sides are about to submit a mountain of evidence for discovery. Lawyer fees are about to explode far beyond what they have been. This is still pre-trial stuff.

That just shows how valuable making sports cards are.

Originally Posted by rmw10

Panini has some wins right now for sure, but they have largely been on the continuation front. They have enough evidence to proceed, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have enough evidence to win. And they might. It would be a massive upset if they do though.

I disagree that it would be a massive upset.

Quite honestly, I have little doubt Panini is going to win on the merits but my fear is the Judge may pull a USFL and tell them "yeah it is a monopoly but there's just no damages and I am not going to require any changes so I am awarding you a dollar. Don't spend it all in one place."

[LondonGames]

Originally Posted by rmw10

It's not a simple 'is it a monopoly or is it not' type of case. Monopolies in and of themselves are not illegal. It's on Panini to prove that Fanatics violated antitrust laws in order to gain these exclusives. That's a tough sell when the leagues and the associated players associations all have basically said they want Fanatics. And Fanatics has arguably the easiest argument there - that they won by innovation. And that's hard to argue. The debut patch idea in MLB has been a huge boost for that market. They have relationships with the leagues and the players that Panini simply doesn't. Of course, there's much more to it than those couple of things.

But that's where it gets super expensive. Both sides are about to submit a mountain of evidence for discovery. Lawyer fees are about to explode far beyond what they have been. This is still pre-trial stuff.

Panini has some wins right now for sure, but they have largely been on the continuation front. They have enough evidence to proceed, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have enough evidence to win. And they might. It would be a massive upset if they do though.

Agreed with literally everything you've written. Disagree not only with everything Fenway has written but the bias and lack of understanding on his part makes it pretty clear he isn't worth arguing with. His posts come off as him being the go-to expert on being able to understand what's going on, which is kinda hilarious.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by LondonGames

How is what Fanatics doing any different than what Panini did when it kicked Topps out of making licensed NFL & NBA? Upper Deck also was the only one with NHL.

Now Upper Deck still has NHL.

Panini are absolute slimeballs. This is usually what happens when slimeballs get beaten at their own game.

It's not. Panini is just upset that Fanatics played their game better than they did.

Panini and Fenway keep bringing up the equity issue. Panini had every opportunity to offer equity in their bid to keep the license. And if it gave Fanatics an "illegal advantage," why did Fanatics grossly overpay for all of the licenses?

They should probably go after Upper Deck as well if they are going to fight the "rules for retailers" as UD has always had strict rules regarding their product.

[auctionjmm]

Be careful what you wish for. Even if Panini actually won and licensing was re-opened to Panini, UD, and Leaf, that doesn't necessarily stop exclusive player and NIL deals.

Imagine we had 4 companies producing cards today, but it was:

Jayden Daniels = Panini Exclusive
Caleb Williams = Topps Exclusive
Drake Maye = Leaf Exclusive
JJ McCarthy = UD Exclusive

It could get to a point where no products are desirable because everyone is now competing to sign players. Then years more of lawsuits to prove that player deals are monopolistic.

This is why I want this monopoly. I'm tired of the exclusive autograph deals and entire colleges signing with one company or the other, hurting the college products. I want Fanatics to have it ALL so that we get every player from every draft and every college in every pro and college product.

[Ninotores]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

This is why I want this monopoly. I'm tired of the exclusive autograph deals and entire colleges signing with one company or the other, hurting the college products. I want Fanatics to have it ALL so that we get every player from every draft and every college in every pro and college product.

This is counter-productive and gives one company far too much power in what they can charge, what they can do, and how they dictate a hobby.

Anyone saying this case doesn't have legs doesn't understand the legal system. May I suggest looking into the Epic games vs. Apple/Google lawsuit.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by Ninotores

This is counter-productive and gives one company far too much power in what they can charge, what they can do, and how they dictate a hobby.

Anyone saying this case doesn't have legs doesn't understand the legal system. May I suggest looking into the Epic games vs. Apple/Google lawsuit.

What is the parallel? Wasn't the Epic suit about being on the app store? And then they just made their own app store?

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

Be careful what you wish for. Even if Panini actually won and licensing was re-opened to Panini, UD, and Leaf, that doesn't necessarily stop exclusive player and NIL deals.

Of course it does. This isn't college. See below....

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

Imagine we had 4 companies producing cards today, but it was:

Jayden Daniels = Panini Exclusive
Caleb Williams = Topps Exclusive
Drake Maye = Leaf Exclusive
JJ McCarthy = UD Exclusive

Unlike college, the NFL players are unionized. Each manufacturer would be able to make a deal with the Union, so we wouldn't see Jayden Daniels only in Panini or Caleb Williams only in Topps. Every player's NIL would be open to all companies via the Union contract.

The above could potentially happen as far as autographs were concerned but it didn't 20 years ago, so I don't know why you're so certain it would dominate the industry in our hypothetical future.

[LondonGames]

Originally Posted by Ninotores

This is counter-productive and gives one company far too much power in what they can charge, what they can do, and how they dictate a hobby.

Anyone saying this case doesn't have legs doesn't understand the legal system. May I suggest looking into the Epic games vs. Apple/Google lawsuit.

This is so funny. You literally just asked what happened to Fleer as you jumped back into the Hobby 3 months ago and missed any possibility to have any context Hobby related.

Then you have the audacity to state that people who have an opinion that the case doesn't have legs doesn't understand the legal system, by just stating a random case that has zero to do with anything.

Best post so far. You're good at spreading wisdom. Thanks.

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by LondonGames

This is so funny. You literally just asked what happened to Fleer as you jumped back into the Hobby 3 months ago and missed any possibility to have any context Hobby related.

Then you have the audacity to state that people who have an opinion that the case doesn't have legs doesn't understand the legal system, by just stating a random case that has zero to do with anything.

Best post so far. You're good at spreading wisdom. Thanks.

You've literally added nothing to this thread other than to say "no you're wrong!! and he's wrong!!!! and they're wrong!!!"

Funniest post so far indeed.

[Grid]

Originally Posted by Fenway55

1) Panini isn't some mom and pop organization. They are an international corporation with about $750 million in annual revenue. If they win, they ain't going to go bankrupt during the appeals process.

Panini is the parent company of Panini America. Panini is an spa in Italy. If Panini S.p.A. wants to keep dumping money in to Panini America. They can. But they would have to tell their shareholders why.

It might make the most sense to let all of this drive Panini America in to bankruptcy. Then have Panini S.p.A. go after Fanatics for damages. Italy gets to walk away from its American holdings. And recoup most if not all its money from Fanatics if things go more their way.

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by Ninotores

Anyone saying this case doesn't have legs doesn't understand the legal system.

+1 +1 +1

In fact, after reading the full MTD ruling, my current fear is that Fanatics will settle and/or buy Panini out. If that happens, and it is a very plausible scenario, then we all lose.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by Fenway55

+1 +1 +1

In fact, after reading the full MTD ruling, my current fear is that Fanatics will settle and/or buy Panini out. If that happens, and it is a very plausible scenario, then we all lose.

Panini has been been pretty firm that they aren't going to sell the business to Fanatics. I also doubt Fanatics would have any interest at this point. They already have the printers and their employees. The IP of the Panini brands don't have any value in my opinion. Topps has dozens of sets and a lot of them already overlap with what Panini makes. Panini and Donruss brands didn't mean much in football or basketball before they got the license and I think they will all be forgotten pretty quickly when they go away.