Legends nothing bad is ever said about

[GOATcards]

so like Kobe was an inefficient chucker or was it just a low-scoring era that he mostly played in, so he's 1b GOAT?

(Kobe lost the '04 and '08 Finals, MJ never lost a Finals, 6-0 beeyotches!)

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Quake1028

Shaq faced plenty of justified criticism in his career.

conserved his body for postseason, didn't shoot granny freethrows, and?

[GOATcards]

when the chips are down, the moment of truth, you gotta pick your top player/starting five as though the future of the planet depended on it (somehow, in an alternative reality), are we not picking MJ #1 and then it's an argument over who's next? Can we really count on Bron? What about Mr. Russell vis a vis Bron, do the balloons stay up there? Jerry West only averaged like 37 PPG in that '69 Finals, MJ averaged 41 PPG in '93 although that wasn't against Mr. Russell's near-retirement defense either, so try to imagine that scenario

also timmy's good, nearly 6-0 in Finals, but close don't count for nuttin'

starting 5 is Earvin, Mike, Bron, Timmy, Mr. Russell
I guess

the next 5 of Steph, Kobe, Larry, KG/Giannis, Kareem has a lot of 3-point game = win

[ThatGuyPal]

Always interesting when a thread breaks down to OP basically having a conversation with themselves.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

when the chips are down, the moment of truth, you gotta pick your top player/starting five as though the future of the planet depended on it (somehow, in an alternative reality), are we not picking MJ #1 and then it's an argument over who's next? Can we really count on Bron? What about Mr. Russell vis a vis Bron, do the balloons stay up there? Jerry West only averaged like 37 PPG in that '69 Finals, MJ averaged 41 PPG in '93 although that wasn't against Mr. Russell's near-retirement defense either, so try to imagine that scenario

also timmy's good, nearly 6-0 in Finals, but close don't count for nuttin'

starting 5 is Earvin, Mike, Bron, Timmy, Mr. Russell
I guess

the next 5 of Steph, Kobe, Larry, KG/Giannis, Kareem has a lot of 3-point game = win

In the 1996 Finals, the 3 games Gary Payton guarded Michael Jordan, Jordan averaged 23.7 PPG on 36.7% shooting. Who defends you matters.

[robert0629]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

see it's Dr J and Moses who are the test cases here, Doc didn't win nuttin' without Moses and vice versa. 1 chip between the two of 'em, that's like half a chip each, so that's the question to ask, is whether players with half a chip are legends, but I did also include the Ben Wallace Pistons for no reason

Dr J won two chips and three MVPs while playing in the ABA. If those don’t count, then how do you view Kareem’s accomplishments pre-merger? Kareem won a ROY Award, three MVPs, two scoring titles, and one chip before the merger. Kareem did all this while some of the greatest players in the world were playing in a competing league. Players like Dr. J, Rick Barry, Moses Malone, and George Gervin were among the many talented players that Kareem didn’t have to face.

Before the merger Kareem had four seasons where he averaged more than 30.0 ppg. His lowest scoring average pre-merger was 27.0. After the merger, he never came close to averaging 30.0 ppg. His highest scoring average post-merger was 26.2, which he did twice. Pre-merger, he had four season of more than 16.0 rpg, with a career high of 16.9 the year before the merger. After the merger, he only averaged 13.0 rpg or more in a season one time for the rest of his career. This all happened despite the fact that he was just 29 years old when the merger took place, which would still be considered his prime.

Dr. J’s stats do fall off as well after joining the NBA. But if we’re going to discount Erving’s ABA career, shouldn’t we also treat Kareem in the same way? Kareem’s pre-merger accomplishments are essential to his GOAT case. Without them he falls to the back end of any top 10 list, and would no longer be in the GOAT conversation.

On a side note, another negative against Kareem would be his performances against Moses Malone. In the two playoff series they face each other Moses dominated Kareem in both points and rebounds. In the 1981 Western Conference 1st round, Moses led a 40-42 Rockets team to a 2-1 series victory over Kareem’s 54 win Lakers team. In this series Moses outscored Kareem by nearly five points a game, and had one more board per game. In the 1983 Finals, Moses outscored Kareem by more than two points a game, but had a staggering 18.0 to 7.5 edge in rebounds per game, as Moses Sixers swept the Lakers in four.

On another note, Dr. J had one of the greatest Finals performances of all time in 1977. The Trail Blazers won 4-2 over Erving’s Sixers. But Dr. J had a stat line of 30.3 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 5.0 apg, 2.7 spg, and 1.2 bpg. He did this while shooting .543 from the floor, and .857 from the line. The problem was several of his teammates took a lot of bad shots in this series. In the sixth and final game, the Sixers lost by just two points. Dr. J dropped 40 points in this game on 17 of 29 from the floor, and 6 of 7 from the line. But it wasn’t enough as Doug Collins struggled in this game, scoring just six points, and World B. Free scored nine points off the bench but went 0 for 6 from the floor.

[Bosoxfan5990]

Anthony Edwards

[Nomad]

No one ever says anything bad about Nate Archibald's signature.

[robert0629]

Originally Posted by rats60

In the 1996 Finals, the 3 games Gary Payton guarded Michael Jordan, Jordan averaged 23.7 PPG on 36.7% shooting. Who defends you matters.

The 1996 NBA Finals was definitely Jordan’s worst Finals’ performance. However, I think it gets exaggerated a bit. Some fans feel that if Payton had guarded Jordan throughout the series, the outcome would have been different. I think this is ridiculous. Some of the excuses that you hear from Payton and the Sonics as to why Payton didn’t guard Jordan, was that Payton was battling an injury. First of all, I remember Payton being on Jordan at times in the first few games. I also remember the Sonics saying they didn’t want Payton guarding Jordan exclusively, because it would hurt Payton’s offensive production. Now, almost 30 years later, Payton and the Sonics want to tell us a different story. Personally, I don’t think it would have mattered. If Payton had guarded Jordan exclusively from the start, Jordan and the Bulls would have adjusted.

This is how I see the 1996 Finals. You have a team that won 72 games, a record at the time. Leading up to the final three games of the series they had gone 15-1 in the playoffs. It’s not hard to imagine that they would be exhausted by the time game four came around. I, also think complacency had set in by now. In the case of Jordan, he had to do more than normal in this series. He got very little help on offense in this series. Pippen was terrible offensively in this series. Ron Harper got injured in game two, and played only 15 minutes combined in game three, four, and five. Off the bench, the only help he got was from Toni kukoc. Steve Kerr was atrocious in this series. Kerr averaged just 5.0 ppg for the series on .303 from the floor and .182 from the three point line.

Another thing that doesn’t get talked about enough is Jordan’s defense in this series. With Harper out Jordan guarded Payton most of the time in games three, four, and five. Whenever Jordan was on Payton, he shut him down. Remember, along with being a great defender, Payton was one of the two best offensive players on his team. Payton got most of his points in garbage time, when Jordan wasn’t guarding him.

The bottom line is, Jordan led his team to a 3-0 series lead, blowing the Sonics out in two of those games. This series was in the bag, the Bulls just struggled a bit in closing it out.

[GOATcards]

Call it the Mr. Russell's Balloons Litmus Test:

Your hypothetical draft pick of a player relative to Mr. Russell's level of greatness comes down to the question: do the (f~ing) balloons stay up there?

I think with MJ the balloons come down, I'm not sure about the rest of 'em

Hondo and Bailey Howell are nice supporting cast for Coach Russell, hey he lauded them as "my guys" as the ones he credits for winning it in '69, is that how he knew the balloons would stay up there?

Does Timmy switched with Mr. Russell so that it's like the 2003 or 2014 Spurs (the least boring versions) as Mr. Russell's supporting cast (wait, who is the head coach in this scenario). Mr. Russell and Timmy have been compared for team play/leadership, what about BBIQ I assume that's high with Timmy but then why does he need coach pop or heck why does joker need Malone, but Mr. Russell was player-coach. Nice. Bailey Howell went out and did it for him though

(strain is called Lazer Beamz)

Coach Russell, Hondo and Bailey and the other guys up against either Wilt + Jerry West + aging Elgin Baylor + nobodies, go 7 games 7th game is decided by a bucket plus a meaningless bucket, or LeBron plus Jerry West + nobodies, do the friggin balloons stay up there if the fate of humanity (by stipulation remember) depended on it? the balloons, always remember the balloons

like, what if MJ took the balloons remark personally

[GOATcards]

on my '97 SP Authentic MJ it shows him dunking big-time on Timmy Duncan, I think it was meant as a show of air superiority that the lumbering Duncan could never achieve, he was showing him up and UD captured the moment!

I think MJ took it personally

dare he try that on 2003 Duncan though, at the age of 40? yikes

air superiority? more like air supremacy :

[Nomad]

I bet no one ever says anything bad about that card. Afraid to.

[Quake1028]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

conserved his body for postseason,

This is a weird way to say he was super lazy at times and often out of shape and his place in history suffered because of it. All valid criticisms of Shaq.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Quake1028

This is a weird way to say he was super lazy at times and often out of shape and his place in history suffered because of it. All valid criticisms of Shaq.

not gonna say that Shaq exemplified Mamba Mentality, and gonna say that MJ would take it personally if Kobe said he lacked Mamba Mentality (but why else did Kobe self-label the GOAT but only with a metaphorical gun to his head on a talk show skit; MJ was . . . out all night gambling before a playoff game at MSG? Was that the game with Starks blocking his fadeaway and doing the baseline lefty dunk which MJ took personally?)

so here's what happened with Shaq/Kobe's dynasty Lakers: they had to win chips, that's all that matters. So they contributed their resources accordingly.

teams formed a strategy called Hack-A-Shaq around O'Neal's FG%-FT% differential, just thought I'd mention that. the Big Aristotle was lazy, or maybe it was something about being what one repeatedly does. 3 Finals MVPs, same as Magic and Timmy

As far as on-court product goes, is Kobe the GOAT Mamba Mentality-wise, the Greatest Work Ethic of All-Time, or does MJ take that personally? 6 Finals MVPs, baseball in between (SI missed the point and the tact with it's "Bag It, Michael!" headline which *repeat after me* MJ took personally)

[masteroftime]

David Robinson - a truly nice guy and a great player

I got to meet him on a flight from SA to LA sometime in '96; sat next to him, talked music & computers & basketball, watched a Jackie Chan movie.

I was a nobody business guy.

He could not have been nicer to me and others on the plane.

If I met up with The Admiral today, I might ask him how he feels about Karl Malone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmr8rguz_Qc

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by masteroftime

If I met up with The Admiral today, I might ask him how he feels about Karl Malone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmr8rguz_Qc

Faceplant Malone you say?

Originally Posted by GOATcards

that face-plant lol

career defining moment

[masteroftime]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Faceplant Malone you say?

Karma-esque?

[Dereth]

Originally Posted by robert0629

The 1996 NBA Finals was definitely Jordan’s worst Finals’ performance. However, I think it gets exaggerated a bit. Some fans feel that if Payton had guarded Jordan throughout the series, the outcome would have been different. I think this is ridiculous. Some of the excuses that you hear from Payton and the Sonics as to why Payton didn’t guard Jordan, was that Payton was battling an injury. First of all, I remember Payton being on Jordan at times in the first few games. I also remember the Sonics saying they didn’t want Payton guarding Jordan exclusively, because it would hurt Payton’s offensive production. Now, almost 30 years later, Payton and the Sonics want to tell us a different story. Personally, I don’t think it would have mattered. If Payton had guarded Jordan exclusively from the start, Jordan and the Bulls would have adjusted.

This is how I see the 1996 Finals. You have a team that won 72 games, a record at the time. Leading up to the final three games of the series they had gone 15-1 in the playoffs. It’s not hard to imagine that they would be exhausted by the time game four came around. I, also think complacency had set in by now. In the case of Jordan, he had to do more than normal in this series. He got very little help on offense in this series. Pippen was terrible offensively in this series. Ron Harper got injured in game two, and played only 15 minutes combined in game three, four, and five. Off the bench, the only help he got was from Toni kukoc. Steve Kerr was atrocious in this series. Kerr averaged just 5.0 ppg for the series on .303 from the floor and .182 from the three point line.

Another thing that doesn’t get talked about enough is Jordan’s defense in this series. With Harper out Jordan guarded Payton most of the time in games three, four, and five. Whenever Jordan was on Payton, he shut him down. Remember, along with being a great defender, Payton was one of the two best offensive players on his team. Payton got most of his points in garbage time, when Jordan wasn’t guarding him.

The bottom line is, Jordan led his team to a 3-0 series lead, blowing the Sonics out in two of those games. This series was in the bag, the Bulls just struggled a bit in closing it out.

I've never heard anyone say that the 1996 Finals would have been different had Payton started out on Jordan. It has always been more that people would like to have seen how things went had George Karl just done the obvious of putting the DPOY on Jordan instead of Detlef Schrempf. Legitimately one of the dumbest coaching decisions in NBA history.

The reason that Jordan got so little help offensively is because the Sonics had a smothering defense that shut Chicago down. The Bulls were tired because of their run through the playoffs? It was the Sonics that had to grind out a 7-game series in the WCF against a tough Jazz team which the Bulls sat at home resting and waiting for them.

Payton has been very consistent when talking about George Karl's game plan over the years. He also has never once said that he shut Jordan down. He has said that he tried to tire him out, and that they played team defense to try and limit Jordan in Games 4-6.

IMO, even though the Sonics fell behind 3-0 in the series, I've always thought that they were probably the biggest threat in Jordan's six Finals appearances. Rodman could not stop Shawn Kemp, they did give Jordan his worst Finals performance, and they also gave Jordan the worst loss of his Finals career in Game 4. They also came very close to stealing Game 2 in Chicago, but Hawkins and Schrempf kept missing crucial wide open threes that could have
grabbed the momentum.

[Nomad]

You guys are talking over my head. All I know is the Warriors were always already out of the hunt by the time it got to early May.

It's great we have NBA.com in this age and can simply find players and team we connect with.

A little worried about the 80s leggings and music they are bringing back to Gainbridge though.

Regarding the topic, I bet each team has one or two players you can say that about in any era. Legends in their own right. But potentially boring, a fate worse than (hobby) death. Irrelevance.

For that reason, I'm fine with calling Nesmith mean. He is intense on the court, though with a heart of steel. If it gets bruh bruh fans tsking and shaking their heads, fine.

With that said, once again the hobby gets it wrong. Benny Math second year bench-piece sticker autos still selling for five times above similar Double A trash.

[FromNBAtoNFL]

My hero Shawn Kemp anything bad from him?

[Dereth]

Originally Posted by FromNBAtoNFL

My hero Shawn Kemp anything bad from him?

There were definitely jokes back then about how many kids that he has, and about him getting fat.