Wilt Chamberlin - The Incredible Defensive Force

[Stifle]

Originally Posted by robert0629

Well I can’t argue with Wilt’s total points versus Wade’s, but I can point out a few things. I know you Wilt fans hate to hear this, but stats from his era are inflated. There were simply more opportunities for points and rebounds due to more missed shots. There were 24 times in which a player averaged more than 20 rebounds in a single season in NBA history. But not once has this happened after 1970. Elgin Baylor, a 6-5 Small Forward once averaged 19.8 rebounds in a single season, and 13.5 for his career. The most rebounds Hakeem, who was a 7-0 Center, averaged in a single season is 14.0. His career average was 11.1. Does anyone believe that Baylor was a better rebounder than Hakeem? Oscar Robertson a 6-5 Guard once averaged 12.5 rebounds in a single season. Patrick Ewing a 7-0 Center’s best rebounding season was 12.1.

The more missed shots obviously gave Wilt more opportunities to score and rebound. Also, Wilt played more minutes than pretty much everybody. This inflated his stats as well. If you look at their 36 minute averages, Wilt averaged 23.6 points per game, and Wade averaged 23.3 points per game. So on a per minute basis, the two players are basically the same level scorer. While it’s impressive that Wilt was able to play almost every minute in every game in some seasons, I don’t quite understand why the team would have wanted him to do that. I don’t like today’s load management, but it seems like Wilt would have benefited from resting a bit. This might explain why his numbers drop off in the playoffs. Perhaps he was worn down. It’s great to have the ability to play at a high level for an entire game when the team needs you to do so, but what about games where the winner has already been decided long before the final buzzer? I took a look at Wilt’s 1961-62 season in which he averaged 48.5 minutes per game. I went through the game logs and found some games where there was clearly no doubt about who the winner was going to be. For example, a game where Wilt’s Warriors beat the Nationals 151-108, and another where the Celtics defeated the Warriors 153-102. What’s he doing out there late in the 4th quarter of these games? Why would he need to be playing the whole game? How many other seasons where he played significant minutes did he hang around to the end in blowout games?

The playoff comparison is basically dead even. Wilt comes in at 22.5 points per game, with Wade at 22.3. However, Wilt averaged nearly 10 minutes more per game. Their 36 minute playoff averages for points are - Wade 21.3, and Wilt 17.2. So looking at these numbers, do you think that Wilt is really that much more dominant a scorer than Wade was?

The top two all time ppg scoring leaders are of course Jordan and Wilt in a virtual tie at 30.1. However, Jordan’s 36 minute ppg average is an impressive 28.3, and as I mentioned Wilt’s is 23.6. That’s a pretty big gap. In the playoffs it’s even bigger. Jordan's playoff 36 minute ppg is 28.8, and Wilt’s is 17.2. That’s a huge gap. Jordan was clearly the superior scorer.

Here are three players from Wilt’s era that have higher 36 minute career ppg averages than Wilt’s 23.6 - Jerry West 24.8, Elgin Baylor 24.6, and Bob Pettit 24.5.

Here are Wilt’s 36 minute career averages for three major stat categories versus Bob Pettit:

Wilt - 23.6 ppg, 18.0 rpg, 3.5 apg

Pettit - 24.5 ppg, 15.1 rpg, 2.8 apg

When you look at Wilt’s 36 minute averages versus other players, it brings him back down to Earth and strips away that mystique that some Wilt fans want to surround him with. You realize that some of his ridiculous numbers were due to the fact that he was playing way more minutes than everybody else.

That is like using a relief pitcher vs a starter. If the reliever had gone 9 innings, we’ll there is a thing called stamina and if you are unable to stay equally productive then it’s not Wilt’s fault that he played nearly every minute of every game. When a player can give his team a full game and another is unable, then which player adds more value if they can still produce at a higher rate by staying in the game and giving his team the BEST Defensive production where nobody discusses that with Petit.

Fortunately, Blocked shots and I believe steals were not a stat otherwise on the defensive side, this 3 quarters of if basketball were 36 minutes long would be ugly. There is a reason that assist’s were not included ! There was a stat that wasn’t official by the Lakers in which Wilt averaged 8 blocked shots per game with LA. That is juggxrnaught !!

[robert0629]

Originally Posted by rats60

Kareem Abdul Jabbar missed the playoffs back to back seasons in his prime. Do you have him listed lower than Wilt? Or should I go through all of his playoff failures before Magic Johnson arrived in LA? The rest of your post is dishonest, filled with lies and half truths, so I am guessing no, you just hate Wilt for some reason.

You were right, I was wrong about one thing. Wilt didn’t miss the playoffs in back-to-back years. But my point still stands. He missed the playoffs one year at the age of 26. Two years later, the Warriors would once again miss the playoffs. Wilt started the season on that team, but was traded after playing 38 games. There’s no way that team would have made the playoffs regardless of whether or not he was traded.

The first season I’m referring to was the 1962-63 Warriors that finished 31-49 for a .388 winning percentage. Along with Wilt, both Tom Meschery and Guy Rodgers were all stars for that team. The worst team to make the playoffs that season was the Detroit Pistons finishing with a 34-46 record. The Warriors were 5-7 against the Pistons. All they had to do was reverse that record, and they were in. That Detroit team was hardly stacked. They had two All Stars, Bailey Howell and Don Ohl. They also had rookie Dave DeBusschere. It’s a pretty bad look, for a GOAT level player to miss the playoffs in a season where he was just entering his prime and 6 out of 9 teams make the playoffs.

Two years later in the 1964-65 season the Warriors would once again miss the playoffs. Their record was 17-63 for a .213 winning percentage. With Wilt in the lineup they were 10-28 for a .263 winning percentage. Had Wilt not been traded they would have had to go on a significant winning streak to make it, because the worst team to make the playoffs that season was the Baltimore Bullets with a .463 winning percentage. This would have been very unlikely considering that the Warriors lost the last 11 games Wilt played for them. Along with Wilt, this team had one other all star in Nate Thurmond. So, Wilt was lucky to be even be able to play in the playoffs that season. I will admit though, he played great in those playoffs, especially against the Celtics. Wilt nearly led the 76ers to an upset, losing game seven by just one point. He averaged 30.1 ppg, and 31.4 rpg for that series.

As for the Warriors, they would improve to 35-45 the next season with the addition of Rick Barry. The season after that under new head coach Bill Sharman they would make the Finals and lose to Wilt’s Sixers in six games. The team was basically the same except for the addition of Barry. It’s a tough comparison to make because the dynamics of the team obviously changed. But Barry took the same players that Wilt had to the Finals. I know that Thurmond improved, and they had a new coach, but I think Wilt fans are being unfair when they say his teammates were trash. Unless you believe that Barry was that much better than Wilt, or Sharman was that much better than Alex Hannum. How did this team turn it around so fast?

As for Kareem. Yes, he missed the playoffs in back-to-back years in his prime. The first time was his final season with the Bucks. Oscar had retired the year before. He still had Bob Dandridge, but not much else. The team went 38-44 for a .463 winning percentage. However, Kareem was hurt and missed 17 games due to injury. With him in the lineup, the Bucks went 35-30 for a .538 winning percentage. Since the worst team to make the playoffs in their division had a .488 winning percentage, it’s likely the Bucks would have made the playoffs had Kareem not been injured. If you want to knock Kareem, the only thing you can really point to is the Bucks play down the stretch, they went just 4-7.

The next season, Kareem’s first with the Lakers, he also failed to make the playoffs. It’s hard to be too critical of Kareem here, as he was the MVP this season. The only other decent players on this team were Gail Goodrich and Lucius Allen. And other than Kareem, nobody from this team was an all star. This Laker team finished with a 40-42 record for a .488 winning percentage. It’s worth noting that the Detroit Piston who at that time were in the Midwest Division of the Western Conference made the playoffs that season with a 36-46 record. If this season took place with today’s format, the Lakers would have easily made the playoffs. By the way, the coach of this team was Bill Sharman. Once again though, the knock on Kareem would be the team’s play down the stretch where they were once again 4-7.

Just by looking at these two cases, anyone can clearly see that Wilt’s Warrior’s teams were far worse than Kareem’s. At least Kareem’s teams had a chance, and the Laker team should have made the playoffs. Wilt’s teams were just horrible, and never stood a chance. I would say that Wilt deserves more criticism than Kareem for missing the playoffs.

Yes I would put Kareem ahead of Wilt on an all time list. He has more MVPs, and more importantly he has more championships. Six chips to two is tough for Wilt to overcome. The scoring titles for Wilt are nice, but not enough. I do realize that Kareem’s success in terms of winning came with Oscar and Magic. However, all great players need help. The big difference between these two players is that Kareem won when he had help, Wilt lost more often than not even when he had a good supporting cast. I pointed out a couple examples in an earlier post, like Hal Greer’s performance in the 1968 EDF, and Jerry West in the 1969 Finals. Wilt, unfortunately, didn’t do what a player who’s on the level of the GOAT should do when given the chance. Kareem, on the other hand, delivered when it mattered.

The only criticism I have of Kareem, is that his early success came when some of the greatest players in the world were playing in a competing league. Players like Julius Erving, Moses Malone, Rick Barry, and George Gervin were playing in the ABA while Kareem was winning a championship and a couple of MVPs and scoring titles. Things may have been different for him had these players all been in the same league. By the way, fun fact, Dr. J was drafted by the Bucks with the 12th pick in the 1972 NBA Draft. That would have been interesting had he chosen to play for them instead of heading to the ABA.

I have no reason to hate Wilt. He was an amazing player. Putting him at the bottom half of a top ten is still high praise in my opinion. He's the most dominant offensive player of his era, and the second best player overall of his era. For that he will always be a top ten player. What I don't like is when Wilt fans who think he's the GOAT are dishonest to make their point. All they can do is blame his teammates and coaches, and the tough competition he faced, when trying to make their case. If Wilt fans are honest, they will admit that he played with some great players and that he had some clear deficiencies that cost him championships. And yes he did face tough competition, but he was also on the best team several times in his career and still came up empty. Wilt was great, he just wasn't the GOAT.

[robert0629]

Originally Posted by Stifle

That is like using a relief pitcher vs a starter. If the reliever had gone 9 innings, we’ll there is a thing called stamina and if you are unable to stay equally productive then it’s not Wilt’s fault that he played nearly every minute of every game. When a player can give his team a full game and another is unable, then which player adds more value if they can still produce at a higher rate by staying in the game and giving his team the BEST Defensive production where nobody discusses that with Petit.

Fortunately, Blocked shots and I believe steals were not a stat otherwise on the defensive side, this 3 quarters of if basketball were 36 minutes long would be ugly. There is a reason that assist’s were not included ! There was a stat that wasn’t official by the Lakers in which Wilt averaged 8 blocked shots per game with LA. That is juggxrnaught !!

Like I said, it's impressive that he was able to play at such a high level for an entire game. The question is, was it always the best thing to do if you want to win? Why play every minute of every game during the regular season? Shouldn't you conserve your energy, and keep yourself fresh for the playoffs? This especially applies to blowouts. There's no reason why Wilt should be hanging around late in games when one team is up by 25 or more. Could this be a reason why Wilt's numbers fell off in the playoffs?

Comparing him to Bob Pettit, is not a knock on Wilt. Pettit was an absolute stud. He won two MVP Awards. He led the league in scoring twice. He led the league in PER four times. And he's the only player other than Wilt, to take down Bill Russell's Celtics in a playoff series. I believe he's very underrated and deserves to be a top 25 all time player.

I want to be clear that I believe that Wilt is a better player than Pettit. However, looking at the 36 minute averages brings Wilt down to Earth a bit. Although, he was the most dominant offensive player of his era, in my opinion by looking at these averages you can make a more fair comparison.

As for his defense, he was a tremendous defensive player. Not as good as Russell though. I will mention something now that you won't like. But I didn't say it, John Havlicek did. I'm just the messenger. Havlicek said of Wilt, "Wilt’s greatest idiosyncrasy was not fouling out. He had never fouled out of a high school, college, or professional game and that was one record he was determined to protect. When he got that fourth foul, his game would change. I don’t know how many potential victories he may have cheated his team out of by not really playing after he got into foul trouble."