Who is the GOAT?

[pingbling23]

Originally Posted by Stifle

A extremely dominant player can only carry a team so far. Wilt, MJ, Lebron all needed additional talent to gain a ring.

Absolutely. Talent level isn’t comparable across generations. I remember watching in the 90s and there were legit players that couldn’t dribble and handle the ball. Now the league is flooded with taller players that can do anything smaller point guards can do. The point is you could do a lot more with less back then, especially for the goat mj. That’s not to say mj wouldn’t have had stacked teams in the modern game like he did with the bulls and been successful too. It’s easy to criticize lebron for his teams but it’s what it takes now days. We hashed out the landscape of the league having contenders with 2-3 stars when lebron went to the heat almost 15 years ago lol. It’s what had to be done for him to get titles.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

Absolutely. Talent level isn’t comparable across generations. I remember watching in the 90s and there were legit players that couldn’t dribble and handle the ball. Now the league is flooded with taller players that can do anything smaller point guards can do. The point is you could do a lot more with less back then, especially for the goat mj. That’s not to say mj wouldn’t have had stacked teams in the modern game like he did with the bulls and been successful too. It’s easy to criticize lebron for his teams but it’s what it takes now days. We hashed out the landscape of the league having contenders with 2-3 stars when lebron went to the heat almost 15 years ago lol. It’s what had to be done for him to get titles.

There are a lot of current players who can’t shoot free throws and can’t play defense.

Good to know Bron is a victim to the supreme talent of the modern-day game. Without the super team jumping, he would be the next Karl Malone. Fortunately he had teammates who could carry him to a ring.

[eastbayak]

Originally Posted by Stifle

A extremely dominant player can only carry a team so far. Wilt, MJ, Lebron all needed additional talent to gain a ring.

How many superstars, other than MJ, required additional talent AND a very team-friendly contract situation to prosper?

Can't be many, and probably more likely in the distant past than recent times.

[pingbling23]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

There are a lot of current players who can’t shoot free throws and can’t play defense.

Good to know Bron is a victim to the supreme talent of the modern-day game. Without the super team jumping, he would be the next Karl Malone. Fortunately he had teammates who could carry him to a ring.

Lebron was carried lol. You don’t even try, lazy.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

Lebron was carried lol. You don’t even try, lazy.

He was carried by the supreme talent of the modern day NBA ( taller players who can do anything), as you said.

I was agreeing with your assessment, lol.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by eastbayak

How many superstars, other than MJ, required additional talent AND a very team-friendly contract situation to prosper?

Can't be many, and probably more likely in the distant past than recent times.

Today, everyone needs to get their share.

Dollars are more important than rings for today’s millennial veterans.

If Bron played for the league minimum, his team might be able to secure a championship.

[Stifle]

Oscar Robertson was the 2 guy after Wilt. It took him till 71 with KAJ until he won a title. KAJ had to wait till Magic arrived in LA. There is a long history of individual Icons waiting for higher skilled teammates to arrive at the next level.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by eastbayak

How many superstars, other than MJ, required additional talent AND a very team-friendly contract situation to prosper?

Can't be many, and probably more likely in the distant past than recent times.

Just because you spew the same junk 100 times doesn't make it true. The Bulls won at least 3 of their 6 titles with Pippen's contract being in line with where it should be. You really need to find a new schtick because this one is played out. Pippen will forever be overrated by Jordan haters because it's the only card they have to play.

[Stifle]

Originally Posted by eastbayak

It took MJ a very discounted Pippen for the Bulls to really compete.

Crazy how the "GOAT" needed to have such an advantage to actually win CHIPs.

If I were to go down the list of top 12, all of them had multiple high skilled teammates. This entire GOAT should be Greatest Of At Their Time - GOATT. To compare Wilt & Oscar who were in the league a decade before KAJ who was a decade before Magic & Bird who were in a half decade before Jordan who was at least a decade before Kobe who was in nearly a decade before Lebron. These timelines have seen enormous changes to the game and the way it is officiated.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Stifle

If I were to go down the list of top 12, all of them had multiple high skilled teammates. This entire GOAT should be Greatest Of At Their Time - GOATT. To compare Wilt & Oscar who were in the league a decade before KAJ who was a decade before Magic & Bird who were in a half decade before Jordan who was at least a decade before Kobe who was in nearly a decade before Lebron. These timelines have seen enormous changes to the game and the way it is officiated.

This would be entirely valid if defenses actually stayed consistent with the level of offensive talent.

However, defense is significantly worse in today’s game as offensive prowess yields to higher paying contracts and the regular season no longer matters.

[pcptrade]

I come back after a month break and we are still discussing Lebron vs MJ. No wonder why BO is becoming a thing of the past. I'll be back in a few months

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by eastbayak

How many superstars, other than MJ, required additional talent AND a very team-friendly contract situation to prosper?

Can't be many, and probably more likely in the distant past than recent times.

The Warriors were able to have their run in part because they got Steph on a discount bc he was coming off those ankle issues so he didn't sign a max deal.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Hellcat

Kobe chrome rookie refractor sells for more grade for grade to Lebums rookie refractor. Several examples where Kobe is higher than Lubum thus my original comment rings true.

aren't there only like 200 Kobe Chrome Refractor RCs? And how many non-greened now?

Originally Posted by pcptrade

Regarding Kobe 1996 TC vs Lebron 2003 TC, 1996 was the first year of Topps Chrome plus it had a low pop and low gem mint rate. That's why it sells for more. It is not apples-to-apples.

1. Kobe 1996 TC Refractor- PSA pop 422, PSA 10 pop 63
2. Lebron 2003 TC Refractor- PSA pop pop 739, PSA 10 pop 178. Also, Lebron 2003 TC has Black Ref/500, XFractor/220 and Gold Ref/50.

the PSA pop numbers for this issue in particular (96 Kobe TCR) are reputed to be way above the real count due to all the break-and-resubs

Originally Posted by Asian62150

The Warriors were able to have their run in part because they got Steph on a discount bc he was coming off those ankle issues so he didn't sign a max deal.

whoa

Originally Posted by pcptrade

I come back after a month break and we are still discussing Lebron vs MJ. No wonder why BO is becoming a thing of the past. I'll be back in a few months

Maybe I'll have a different avatar by then, I'm really liking the current one, it stands up well over time (that's from the 1997 UD Tribute #M25 or something like that, get it while it's cheap folks)

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

Just because you spew the same junk 100 times doesn't make it true. The Bulls won at least 3 of their 6 titles with Pippen's contract being in line with where it should be. You really need to find a new schtick because this one is played out. Pippen will forever be overrated by Jordan haters because it's the only card they have to play.

Lebron has NOT won the title in 17 seasons during his career. Jordan won his 6 in a bulls career lasting 13 years. So if Jordan and Lebron played their entire careers side by side he would have 17 seasons not 13 when Lebron wasn’t winning to get his 6 titles lol. He didn’t even need that much time. Lebron has lost so much that it provides ample opportunity to win. Even more than it took him in real life to get his 6.

Imagine thinking Lebron would stop anybody from winning lol. Idiots

[6celtics33]

The everybody is better now and the game is better now idea supporters can’t give any credible explanation why we can’t beat some Wagners or South Sudanese by 25-30 in the Olympics despite having our most loaded roster since 92. Maybe Durant will change that. I’ll be interested to see what the margin of victory is this time v 4 years from now. It should be less since the world will keep catching up to us and we will lose 3 important all time skilled superstars in Lebron KD and Steph. But let’s see as a thought experiment.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Lebron has NOT won the title in 17 seasons during his career. Jordan won his 6 in a bulls career lasting 13 years. So if Jordan and Lebron played their entire careers side by side he would have 17 seasons not 13 when Lebron wasn’t winning to get his 6 titles lol. He didn’t even need that much time. Lebron has lost so much that it provides ample opportunity to win. Even more than it took him in real life to get his 6.

Imagine thinking Lebron would stop anybody from winning lol. Idiots

Mic drop...

[Nomad]

wrong thread as usual. pass by

[Torro]

Kobe not in the list, instead Tim Duncan 😅

[Hellcat]

I would guess around 250/300 Kobe Chrome Refractors exist. Tons of re-subs on this card like alot of instances can't go off the POP.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by Torro

Kobe not in the list, instead Tim Duncan 😅

When did Kobe lead a team anywhere close to TD did for his career or dominate any 1 season as much as TD did in multiple seasons?

[robert0629]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

When did Kobe lead a team anywhere close to TD did for his career or dominate any 1 season as much as TD did in multiple seasons?

Kobe did have two of the most dominant seasons ever statistically when he averaged 35.4 and 31.6 ppg in consecutive seasons. When you factor in pace of play as scoring was down in the 2000s compared to other decades, it makes it even more impressive. But when your second best player is Lamar Odom, and you’re playing with guys like Smush Parker and Kwame Brown it’s tough to win anything. Duncan has had good supporting casts pretty much for his entire career. Kobe had a stretch between Shaq and Gasol when he had nobody.

Kobe does have a 4-2 edge in playoff series versus Duncan. Kobe was far and away the best player in the 2001 WCF when the Lakers swept the Spurs. Better than both Shaq and Duncan in that series. Both players played great in the 2008 WCF, but Kobe’s Lakers came out on top 4-1. Duncan has gotten the best of Kobe as well. The Spurs swept the Lakers in the 1999 WCS and beat them again in 2003.

I just remember when they were both playing, Kobe was considered the best player in the world for at least a few years. There were some fans who thought it was LeBron, but I don’t ever remember Duncan being in the best player of the world conversation when he was playing. Now I will say that Duncan was definitely underrated. But it makes no sense to now put Duncan on a top 10 list that doesn’t also have Kobe on it. What changed that Kobe no longer gets that consideration?

Personally, I think we’re splitting hairs. I think they both belong on a top 10 list. My top tier players would be Jordan, Russell, LeBron, and Kareem. My next tier would be Kobe, Magic, Bird, and Duncan. After that would be Shaq, Hakeem, Dr. J, Wilt, and Curry. If I had to take a player off the OP’s list to include Kobe, I would probably take Wilt or Shaq off.

[Nomad]

I think Kobe had one of the best vibes in the game.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by robert0629

Kobe did have two of the most dominant seasons ever statistically when he averaged 35.4 and 31.6 ppg in consecutive seasons. When you factor in pace of play as scoring was down in the 2000s compared to other decades, it makes it even more impressive. But when your second best player is Lamar Odom, and you’re playing with guys like Smush Parker and Kwame Brown it’s tough to win anything. Duncan has had good supporting casts pretty much for his entire career. Kobe had a stretch between Shaq and Gasol when he had nobody.

Kobe does have a 4-2 edge in playoff series versus Duncan. Kobe was far and away the best player in the 2001 WCF when the Lakers swept the Spurs. Better than both Shaq and Duncan in that series. Both players played great in the 2008 WCF, but Kobe’s Lakers came out on top 4-1. Duncan has gotten the best of Kobe as well. The Spurs swept the Lakers in the 1999 WCS and beat them again in 2003.

I just remember when they were both playing, Kobe was considered the best player in the world for at least a few years. There were some fans who thought it was LeBron, but I don’t ever remember Duncan being in the best player of the world conversation when he was playing. Now I will say that Duncan was definitely underrated. But it makes no sense to now put Duncan on a top 10 list that doesn’t also have Kobe on it. What changed that Kobe no longer gets that consideration?

Personally, I think we’re splitting hairs. I think they both belong on a top 10 list. My top tier players would be Jordan, Russell, LeBron, and Kareem. My next tier would be Kobe, Magic, Bird, and Duncan. After that would be Shaq, Hakeem, Dr. J, Wilt, and Curry. If I had to take a player off the OP’s list to include Kobe, I would probably take Wilt or Shaq off.

Kobe's high volume scoring year did not end well. 1st round exit where he quit on the team late in game 7 right? Awesome.

I love how you try to put TD down by talking about his supporting cast. Total revisionist theory as nobody spoke about the "Superstars" that TP and Manu were. Yet Kobe played with Shaq! And many others. The Spurs could never attract top level talent like the Lakers. Could you imagine if Tim Duncan played 7 seasons with another top 10 all time players?

I agree Kobe should have been added to the list. That's on OP. Not me.

I've always been more than happy for anyone to think these 2 are close, but I bet most GMs would draft Tim Duncan ahead over Kobe in a redraft. He wasn't the best at carrying a squad and was a poor leader and overrated defender.

Tim Duncan was dominant on both ends. I've actually always loved the idea of them teaming up. TD with the far better leadership and selflessness and defense, Kobe with the athletic talent and shot making. They may have 7 titles each, or more.

[Nomad]

I wonder where the Kobe Duncan either/or narrative took hold. Two of my favorite leaders.

I think where the LeBron narrative becomes murky is that, while dominant, he never built a team organically (or did he do that in Cleveland?)

But then again, you do what you do. Boston got rid of all its organic players not named Jays or Pritchard in the quest to build a better horse. Dallas with the exit of Hardaway Jr. is heading that way. Heat, Thunder, Pacers, Denver to a certain extent, present the logic of staying pat.

[Hellcat]

Nobody cares about Duncan just stop the comparisons. Kobe is a far superior basketball player to Duncan thus reflected in card prices.