Who is the GOAT catcher?

[awz50]

Originally Posted by HeritageKing

Not only does Berra have the crazy post season stats, he put baseball on hold for a year to go kill nazis. I’ll call that the best ever.

He also did it on the front line, not just some cushion position

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by rats60

I wouldn't put Gibson above Bench, it is hard to know how good he would have been in the majors given the chance, but his numbers would have been a lot lower.

In 1969, MLB picked their all time team for the 100th anniversary of baseball. The catcher was Mickey Cochrane, over Berra, Campy, Dickey and Hartnett. In fact Berra wasn't even the best living catcher, Bill Dickey was.

Cochrane helped turn around 2 franchises helping them win championships in the middle of the Yankees dynasty. He won MVPs with both the A's and Tigers. He appeared in 5 WS and won 3 rings. His career . 320 BA is the highest for a catcher. His slash .320/.452/.490 OPS+ 129 is only exceeded by Mike Piazza. His career was cut short when he was hit in the head by a pitch in 1937 when he was hitting .306 with an OPS+ 135.

My top 3 are
1. Bench
2. Gibson
3. Cochrane

You could be right and it's certainly fair to rank Bench ahead of Gibson. I definitely have them close. I rank Gibson ahead of Bench simply because, even if his numbers were discounted, he'd still have been doing some unprecedented stuff. His 154 game average was 43 HRs. Even if we discount that ~20% to 35, there were only 2 catchers to hit 35 in even one season pre-integration: 1930 Hartnett and 1937 Rudy York.

Gibson led the Negro Leagues in HRs 11 of his 14 seasons. That is pretty Ruthian. Unfortunately, a lot of the Gibson evidence gets anecdotal from there. So, it's certainly not iron clad. I am confident enough to say he is somewhere between Babe Ruth and Paul Bunyan. And as a baseball romantic, I'll still give the edge to the legend while conceding the greatness of Bench may very well exceed it.

[hammertime]

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by Drew3000

Bench, it’s not that close

I am a huge Yankees fan and admire Berra, but this is correct.

[PejaD]

Sad the OG Pudge and The Kid have received ZERO votes so far

[majestik101]

Bench by a mile

[PuddleMonkey]

We should probably give the Berra sympathizers a week off from the forum to reflect on where they went wrong in life.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by PuddleMonkey

We should probably give the Berra sympathizers a week off from the forum to reflect on where they went wrong in life.

I mean, when they start arguing his military service moves him up the ranks of the best catchers, you know they've gone off the rails. That might make him a great person/citizen, but has literally nothing to do with baseball prowess (which is the subject of this thread).

[Bcr]

Originally Posted by PuddleMonkey

We should probably give the Berra sympathizers a week off from the forum to reflect on where they went wrong in life.

Agree. Love me some Yogi, but Bench is in a tier all in his own

[Biohazarddfl]

I think the service time is relevant because those are prime baseball years for many guys, and they had no choice. That's a lot of WAR being missed.

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[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Biohazarddfl

I think the service time is relevant because those are prime baseball years for many guys, and they had no choice. That's a lot of WAR being missed.

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His military service was from ages 18-20. He made his major league debut at 21 and only played 7 games that year, and 83 games the next year. How many games are you suggesting he would have played prior to turning 21? How much WAR did he miss? Not likely much, if any. Certainly not the 16 it would take to catch Bench.

[Biohazarddfl]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

His military service was from ages 18-20. He made his major league debut at 21 and only played 7 games that year, and 83 games the next year. How many games are you suggesting he would have played prior to turning 21? How much WAR did he miss? Not likely much, if any. Certainly not the 16 it would take to catch Bench.

Definitely not the 16, and if you look above, I have already said that Bench is the goat, but Berra and other's service is relevant in these convos

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[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Biohazarddfl

Definitely not the 16, and if you look above, I have already said that Bench is the goat, but Berra and other's service is relevant in these convos

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Agree to disagree. His service was prior to his playing days. He played 7 games the year after his service. There is nothing to indicate to me he would have made the majors earlier.

Other's service, who missed time during their careers is relevant. That wasn't Berra.

That said, I was talking about people who were using his hero status to support their argument. That was what appeared to be happening in this thread. I didn't see anyone suggesting missing stats due to service was their position.

[Biohazarddfl]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Agree to disagree. His service was prior to his playing days. He played 7 games the year after his service. There is nothing to indicate to me he would have made the majors earlier.

Other's service, who missed time during their careers is relevant. That wasn't Berra.

That said, I was talking about people who were using his hero status to support their argument. That was what appeared to be happening in this thread. I didn't see anyone suggesting missing stats due to service was their position.

This is absurd. Take any player today and send them into service for years and then tell me if it impacted their path to the bigs indirectly. If an 18 year old Bryce Harper served at those ages, do you think he just gets back from overseas and shows up in the bigs or does he have to ramp back up? It probably hurts him even more the fact that he wasn't already in the bigs and wasn't owed a spot.

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[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Biohazarddfl

This is absurd. Take any player today and send them into service for years and then tell me if it impacted their path to the bigs indirectly. If an 18 year old Bryce Harper served at those ages, do you think he just gets back from overseas and shows up in the bigs or does he have to ramp back up? It probably hurts him even more the fact that he wasn't already in the bigs and wasn't owed a spot.

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What's absurd is pretending today is the same as the 40s. Players weren't training year round from a young age in even remotely the same way as today. Missing a year of baseball today has a significantly bigger impact on development than the 40s. Come on. We're talking about a time when many players had jobs in the off season.

But again, you are side tracked. No one was arguing his missed time cost him stats. They argued his "killing nazis" put him ahead of Bench. Your whole argument is a red herring.

I absolutely agree that when a player misses time due to service, it is a relevant consideration when comparing overall career stats. That wasn't what was happening here that I was responding to. So I agree with your premise. It just isn't relevant to my comment about those talking about his service had gone off the rails.

[Biohazarddfl]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

What's absurd is pretending today is the same as the 40s. Players weren't training year round from a young age in even remotely the same way as today. Missing a year of baseball today has a significantly bigger impact on development than the 40s. Come on. We're talking about a time when many players had jobs in the off season.

But again, you are side tracked. No one was arguing his missed time cost him stats. They argued his "killing nazis" put him ahead of Bench. Your whole argument is a red herring.

I absolutely agree that when a player misses time due to service, it is a relevant consideration when comparing overall career stats. That wasn't what was happening here that I was responding to. So I agree with your premise. It just isn't relevant to my comment about those talking about his service had gone off the rails.

There is no red herring here. Berra gets to the bigs much sooner if he doesn't go to war. Sorry.

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[davidantx]

Pudge by a mile

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Biohazarddfl

There is no red herring here. Berra gets to the bigs much sooner if he doesn't go to war. Sorry.

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Again, you missed the point. That wasn't the discussion. The red herring is you trying to shift the discussion from including heroism in the analysis, to including potential missed stats to the analysis.

But I don't know if he makes it before 21 or not. I don't know that. And neither do you. Even if he did, his first 2 years were worth a total of 1.5 WAR. Negligible in the grand scheme. It's not like Williams, who missed prime years. It's relevant. Just not significant.

[gradedeflator]

Originally Posted by JoshMN

Carter had the sexiest hair. Fisk probably had the strongest knees given his longevity. They are definitely GOATs on some level.

Mike Piazza’s mustache begs to differ!

[swabie2424]

I’d ultimately vote for Bench. But it’s way closer than the Bench group here wants to admit.

I think Yogi is one of the most overlooked players of all time. Mostly because he was so fun and likable. The Yogi-isms, cartoons and lovable personality hurt his baseball legacy.

3x MVP (Bench 2x)
10 World Series Rings (Bench 2)
More than 350 HRs and fewer than 500 K’s (only other is DiMaggio)
Higher career BA than Bench .285 to .267
More career .300 seasons 4 to 1
Higher career on base pct than Bench
1/3 the amount of K’s than Bench!
More career RBIs than Bench
Tough as hell
Called an amazing game
Best bad ball hitter ever?
One of the most clutch hitters ever
Called and caught a perfect game in WS

I love Johnny Bench. No doubt he had better physical tools and stats in just as many areas - including the astounding 10 Gold Gloves, which ultimately nudges him ahead. But to say, “It’s not even close” is really a parochial opinion.

[jackwesq]

Poll asked who is the greatest catcher of all time. I picked Yogi Berra.

If the poll had asked who is the best catcher of all time, I probably would have picked someone else.

[brewtown107]

The correct answer is Yogi Berra

[Bcr]

Originally Posted by swabie2424

I’d ultimately vote for Bench. But it’s way closer than the Bench group here wants to admit.

I think Yogi is one of the most overlooked players of all time. Mostly because he was so fun and likable. The Yogi-isms, cartoons and lovable personality hurt his baseball legacy.

3x MVP (Bench 2x)
10 World Series Rings (Bench 2)
More than 350 HRs and fewer than 500 K’s (only other is DiMaggio)
Higher career BA than Bench .285 to .267
More career .300 seasons 4 to 1
Higher career on base pct than Bench
1/3 the amount of K’s than Bench!
More career RBIs than Bench
Tough as hell
Called an amazing game
Best bad ball hitter ever?
One of the most clutch hitters ever
Called and caught a perfect game in WS

I love Johnny Bench. No doubt he had better physical tools and stats in just as many areas - including the astounding 10 Gold Gloves, which ultimately nudges him ahead. But to say, “It’s not even close” is really a parochial opinion.

Calling an all time Yankee great overlooked is certainly an opinion.

[hammertime]

Originally Posted by jackwesq

Poll asked who is the greatest catcher of all time. I picked Yogi Berra.

If the poll had asked who is the best catcher of all time, I probably would have picked someone else.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by swabie2424

I’d ultimately vote for Bench. But it’s way closer than the Bench group here wants to admit.

I think Yogi is one of the most overlooked players of all time. Mostly because he was so fun and likable. The Yogi-isms, cartoons and lovable personality hurt his baseball legacy.

One of the most clutch hitters ever.

Bench was better in the postseason . 266/.335/.527/.862
to Berra . 274/.359/.452/.811

With RISP Berra had an OPS .850
2 outs RISP .805
Late and close .895

None of those say one of the most clutch hitters of all time.

Berra is not underrated. He is definitely top 5, but he really isn't close to Bench.