MJ's: Fleer #57 vs Star #101

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

it's all supply+demand, and demand is based on proximity to rookie-ness and aesthetics. so how would what you're talking about affect either of these key factors?

relatedly, imagine the photo from the 57 on the 101, it would be the most iconic card in the hobby for sure

I don't see how anyone would care how a card was first distributed, once it's distributed the cards are in circulation to trade among clecters, that's all you need. Big initial buyers of 84S material might very well have made out like bandits (only after years for the market to develop, organically like any other product e.g. Fleer), good for them

- topps now
- panini instant
- project 2020

There is a historical desirability to a card that must be pulled from a randomized pack to be owned, a perception of equitable chase that adds to a card’s attractiveness.

Cards produced and purchased by the public directly from the manufacturer have the general stigma of being easier to obtain by only certain customers and thus are considered too unconventional to be desired on a mass scale.

In the hobby of collectibles, the chase factor is no less than half the appeal.

[daveyc1]

i dont have either card, so no horse in the race for me, but here are some thoughts.

Star cards were fully licenced, no?

I do not see the relevance of distribution form. What are Doc Goodens RC's? 84TT and 84 FU. Both of which were not released in random pack form. Same with Puckett and Clemens.

I have been in the hobby since 87. from as far back as 90 or so, the star 101 was the higher valued card.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by daveyc1

i dont have either card, so no horse in the race for me, but here are some thoughts.

Star cards were fully licenced, no?

I do not see the relevance of distribution form. What are Doc Goodens RC's? 84TT and 84 FU. Both of which were not released in random pack form. Same with Puckett and Clemens.

I have been in the hobby since 87. from as far back as 90 or so, the star 101 was the higher valued card.

The fleer update and topps traded sets are XRC, just like the star jordan, and carry a price premium primarily due to scarcity, and less so than mass appeal. Furthermore, I would argue that the star jordan would have more appeal if it was issued in a complete factory set form in a box with the fleer brand.

The star company was and still is an inferior brand with poor production qualities and safeguards against replication and proliferation, the production of their cards were too easy to be exploited by the manufacturer. Less public trust, less demand.

[YouTheManNick]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

I don't see how anyone would care how a card was first distributed.

Lots of people care. The pack-out system is one of the most important and most appealing aspects of card collecting.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by YouTheManNick

Lots of people care. The pack-out system is one of the most important and most appealing aspects of card collecting.

Precisely, that form of card distribution gives people the perception that a finite quantity of cards is being distributed in a fair and equal fashion for all customers.

[pcptrade]

I have owned both (86F BGS 9.5, Star 101 BGS 8 and 8.5) and sold all of them a year ago. I did not like the eye appeal of the Star 101. I tried twice (BGS 8 and 8.5) hoping it would grow on me but it didn't. I ended up getting a 86F Auto recently, which unlike the 86F and Star 101 is not available for sale all the time. If I have to do it all over again and choose between 86F PSA 9 and Star 101 PSA 6/BGS 7 for $15-20K, I would still go with the 86F PSA 9. That's just my personal preference.

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

I have owned both (86F BGS 9.5, Star 101 BGS 8 and 8.5) and sold all of them a year ago

You sold off all your Jordans including the "aesthetically pleasing" Jambalaya and PMG so not sure what your point is here

Like I said before the only aesthetics you really care about is the color of money

Just stop it and get real bro

[Starman101]

While there have been record high prices for the Star 101 as of late I have noticed that most of the really nice copies I used to see more frequently a few years ago have dried up

One thing is for certain is that all BGS 8s and 8.5s are not the same. IMO BGS grades were always a bit inconsistent on the Star 101 especially which is another reason there simply will not be as many high graded PSA Star 101s as many think

Yes PSA has the brand advantage but I think on the 101 PSA grades them more consistently and accurately than Beckett does

Nobody talks about this but anyone that actually collects Star and not involved with the groupthink chatterbox click on this thread know this is true regarding the 101

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by Starman101

You sold off all your Jordans including the "aesthetically pleasing" Jambalaya and PMG so not sure what your point is here

Like I said before the only aesthetics you really care about is the color of money

Just stop it and get real bro

#rentfree

Yes, I sold them (MJ 86F BGS 9.5, Jambalaya BGS 9.5, PMG Red BGS 8) and bought three autographed MJ cards recently, one of them is a 86F Auto based on rarity and aesthetics. I spent more on those three autographed MJ cards than what I sold my PMG Red, Jambalaya and 86F for.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Starman101

While there have been record high prices for the Star 101 as of late I have noticed that most of the really nice copies I used to see more frequently a few years ago have dried up

One thing is for certain is that all BGS 8s and 8.5s are not the same. IMO BGS grades were always a bit inconsistent on the Star 101 especially which is another reason there simply will not be as many high graded PSA Star 101s as many think

Yes PSA has the brand advantage but I think on the 101 PSA grades them more consistently and accurately than Beckett does

Nobody talks about this but anyone that actually collects Star and not involved with the groupthink chatterbox click on this thread know this is true regarding the 101

Unfortunately, due to size inconsistencies with the star card production process, many altered and trimmed star Jordans made it into BGS holders early on and undoubtedly in some PSA holders as well.

As usual, may the buyer beware.

[mc1]

Star was a fly-by-night company that produced NBA-licensed cards for a few years.

As for the BGS inconsistencies, that is a given. They have been more unreliable than PSA when it comes to catching trimmed or otherwise altered cards. Weve all speculated that for many years. PSA is far from perfect but it is well-known that a large number of cards that were kicked back by PSA (for whatever reason) were slabbed and graded by BGS without a problem.

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

#rentfree

Yes, I sold them (MJ 86F BGS 9.5, Jambalaya BGS 9.5, PMG Red BGS 8) and bought three autographed MJ cards recently, one of them is a 86F Auto based on rarity and aesthetics. I spent more on those three autographed MJ cards than what I sold my PMG Red, jambalaya and 86F for.

Hearing you talk about card aesthetics?

I just stopped reading there...

Your credibility is finito with me bud

It's like that door salesman that I just say "I'm not interested" to when he's still in the middle of his sales pitch snowjob he's trying to get you to believe. Lol

Alot of groupthink still on these boards. Wow

It's no wonder people slept on the Star 101 for so long, just groupthink myth rationale with no ability to see outside the box or beyond themselves

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Starman101

Hearing you talk about card aesthetics?

I just stopped reading there...

Your credibility is finito with me bud

It's like that door salesman that I just say "I'm not interested" to when he's still in the middle of his sales pitch snowjob he's trying to get you to believe. Lol

Alot of groupthink still on these boards. Wow

It's no wonder people slept on the Star 101 for so long, just groupthink myth rationale with no ability to see outside the box or beyond themselves

What are the main groupthink issues about 101 that bother you the most?

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by Starman101

Hearing you talk about card aesthetics?

I just stopped reading there...

Your credibility is finito with me bud

It's like that door salesman that I just say "I'm not interested" to when he's still in the middle of his sales pitch snowjob he's trying to get you to believe. Lol

Alot of groupthink still on these boards. Wow

It's no wonder people slept on the Star 101 for so long, just groupthink myth rationale with no ability to see outside the box or beyond themselves

You have been following me and remember everything that I have done with my cards in the past four years. I am actually really impressed. I can send you my picture if you are that obsessed with me, sweetheart. You can hang it in your bedroom if you want

[mc1]

Originally Posted by Starman101

Alot of groupthink still on these boards. Wow

It's no wonder people slept on the Star 101 for so long, just groupthink myth rationale with no ability to see outside the box or beyond themselves

Ive been highly critical of the fleer jordan, it is overrated and overhyped in my opinion. That being said, the 101 Star design is ok but the photo is pathetic. If you cant see that youre lying to yourself.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Starman101

Hearing you talk about card aesthetics?

I just stopped reading there...

Your credibility is finito with me bud

It's like that door salesman that I just say "I'm not interested" to when he's still in the middle of his sales pitch snowjob he's trying to get you to believe. Lol

Alot of groupthink still on these boards. Wow

It's no wonder people slept on the Star 101 for so long, just groupthink myth rationale with no ability to see outside the box or beyond themselves

The only groupthink myth rationale I've seen is that it isn't his RC. I've given up trying to reason with those saying that the thrill of a randomized pack opening defines what a RC is, it's just them stringing words together

But as for people sleeping on the Star 101, I don't see when that ever happened except maybe before Beckett Monthly (the same period folks would have been sleeping on the 57). The early '90s run-up in Star values - before much of the hobby ever got an actual look at the 101 - was the big chance Star product had to grab collectors' attention.

congrats on your condition rarity though

[YouTheManNick]

If I had a time machine there are a lot of things I'd do first. But at some point I'd pay Topps a visit in early 1984 and not leave until I convinced them to put out a set for the 1984 season.

It would be so nice to have a real card from a real company for MJ's rookie year.

Sigh. Instead, we're stuck with novelty card from the rookie year and real card from the third year.

The 1996 Finest Reprint refractor is pretty cool, though. Would rather have that over the flimsy novelty souvenir any day.

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by mc1

Ive been highly critical of the fleer jordan, it is overrated and overhyped in my opinion. That being said, the 101 Star design is ok but the photo is pathetic. If you cant see that youre lying to yourself.

Yeah my liking of the Star 101 is not because of the photo

There's a lot of other reasons I love the 101 I've already mentioned in this thread

The photo used seems like a shallow take in my opinion but to each his own

The fact that it's MJs 1st NBA Licensed card trumps all else for me and the #1 reason I love the Star 101

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

The only groupthink myth rationale I've seen is that it isn't his RC. I've given up trying to reason with those saying that the thrill of a randomized pack opening defines what a RC is, it's just them stringing words together

But as for people sleeping on the Star 101, I don't see when that ever happened except maybe before Beckett Monthly (the same period folks would have been sleeping on the 57). The early '90s run-up in Star values - before much of the hobby ever got an actual look at the 101 - was the big chance Star product had to grab collectors' attention.

congrats on your condition rarity though

Thank You

The main ssue I have is how many of the same "hobbyists" on here speculating and questioning the PSA 9 Star 101 Rovell sale got their balls twisted and jumped in the PMG thread (the clear culprit giveaway btw) I started when i questioned the obvious pumping and PMG "private sales" tactics that were clearly used to set fake comps to manipulate that card

At the time there were a few owners of the PMG Red that really got upset when I questioned a few private sales because they clearly had something to lose as I exposed a cover up pump and dump scheme on the red PMG in particular

Am I legitimatizing the Star sale? Nope don't care either way as ain't selling mine regardless

It's just laughable how a few clowns in this thread set different rules what cards to question, but more so what to ignore to protect their pumped "investments" before they dump over and over again

It's completely deceptive and dishonest tactics used by the scum of the hobby

And they need to be called out like children who act like they did nothing wrong

[BambinoShuffle]

Originally Posted by Starman101

Thank You

The main ssue I have is how many of the same "hobbyists" on here speculating and questioning the PSA 9 Star 101 Rovell sale got their balls twisted and jumped in the PMG thread (the clear culprit giveaway btw) I started when i questioned the obvious pumping and PMG "private sales" tactics that were clearly used to set fake comps to manipulate that card

At the time there were a few owners of the PMG Red that really got upset when I questioned a few private sales because they clearly had something to lose as I exposed a cover up pump and dump scheme on the red PMG in particular

Am I legitimatizing the Star sale? Nope don't care either way as ain't selling mine regardless

It's just laughable how a few clowns in this thread set different rules what cards to question, but more so what to ignore to protect their pumped "investments" before they dump over and over again

It's completely deceptive and dishonest tactics used by the scum of the hobby

And they need to be called out like children who act like they did nothing wrong

I know where you both are coming from. It’s good passion. In all honesty, the hobby is so much more enjoyable when you can accept varying points of view, and still hold your collection to the standards by which you collect, as an individual or to the clients that you sell your unwanted pieces to. No one is saying the Star Jordan is not a rookie card or trying to diminish its value to investors. In any case, passing judgment on opps is an investment in and of itself… May I suggest diversifying your portfolio.

[Cardsandcoffee]

I still think of the Star 101 as an XRC, not a RC… but still a big and important card.

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by Cardsandcoffee

I still think of the Star 101 as an XRC, not a RC… but still a big and important card.

Most XRC's from the 80's are worth more money. I don't get why people are so upset and have to argue about this. If we changed the definition of the RC, what difference would this make? Heck, the majority of people still think the 1952 Topps Mantle is his rookie card when the hobby has no problem calling his 1951 Bowman his real rookie. I won't spend the money on his 1986 Fleer card, so this is a decision amongst millionaires right now.

Roger Clemens and Kirby Puckett best RC is their 1984 Fleer Update XRC. This is true for almost every player in the 80's with a card in an update or traded set. 1982 Topps Traded Cal Ripken, 1983 Topps Trade Darryl Strawberry, 1986 Topps Traded Barry Bonds, 1984 Topps Traded Dwight Gooden, etc... In baseball collecting there is no issue for this. Why is it such an issue is basketball?

[Cardsandcoffee]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

Most XRC's from the 80's are worth more money. I don't get why people are so upset and have to argue about this. If we changed the definition of the RC, what difference would this make? Heck, the majority of people still think the 1952 Topps Mantle is his rookie card when the hobby has no problem calling his 1951 Bowman his real rookie. I won't spend the money on his 1986 Fleer card, so this is a decision amongst millionaires right now.

Roger Clemens and Kirby Puckett best RC is their 1984 Fleer Update XRC. This is true for almost every player in the 80's with a card in an update or traded set. 1982 Topps Traded Cal Ripken, 1983 Topps Trade Darryl Strawberry, 1986 Topps Traded Barry Bonds, 1984 Topps Traded Dwight Gooden, etc... In baseball collecting there is no issue for this. Why is it such an issue is basketball?

No idea but I noticed how Star holders are insistent on calling the 101 his “RC” and I always thought it was funny and strange. I never thought an XRC designation as bad or less than. Just different to account for the particular circumstances

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

Most XRC's from the 80's are worth more money. I don't get why people are so upset and have to argue about this. If we changed the definition of the RC, what difference would this make? Heck, the majority of people still think the 1952 Topps Mantle is his rookie card when the hobby has no problem calling his 1951 Bowman his real rookie. I won't spend the money on his 1986 Fleer card, so this is a decision amongst millionaires right now.

Roger Clemens and Kirby Puckett best RC is their 1984 Fleer Update XRC. This is true for almost every player in the 80's with a card in an update or traded set. 1982 Topps Traded Cal Ripken, 1983 Topps Trade Darryl Strawberry, 1986 Topps Traded Barry Bonds, 1984 Topps Traded Dwight Gooden, etc... In baseball collecting there is no issue for this. Why is it such an issue is basketball?

It’s called a “Bron complex”, or Lecomplex for short.

[pcptrade]

I don't think anyone is arguing that it is not a rookie card. I consider them as RC. The argument (as many have pointed out) is that it is not pack inserted/pulled plus the poor aesthetic and maybe those do not matter to some. Mantle 1951 Bowman and 1952 Topps were both pack inserted/pulled. The 52T has a better eye appeal (plus the Hudson river story) than the 51B and hence is more sought after even though 51B was released before the 52T. Also, there is not much difference between the total graded pop of 51B and 52T. Hence the 52T sells for more than the 51B in similar grades. In case of MJ Star 101, its print run and graded pop are significantly lower than the 86F, which is why the Star 101 has always sold for more in similar grades. If both 86F and 84 Star had similar total graded pop like the 52T and 51B, the 86F would sell for more than the 84 Star 101 in similar grades despite being released almost two years after MJ's rookie debut due to 1. eye appeal and 2. pack pulled. As far as manipulation goes, pretty much every card has undergone manipulation. So let's not pretend and create dumb threads that the prices of only one particular card or insert has been manipulated.