What will it take for Joker to be in top 10 conversation?

[daeve]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

You keep saying no all stars as if Murray isn't an all-star caliber player.

Aaron Gordon has been phenomenal. MPJ is a great role player. etc...

It's getting to the point in his career where he needs to decide whether he wants to go chase rings or not.

Bron couldn't win a ring with bums for his first 7 years in Cleveland. If he had a player half as good as Murray he probably would have won a ring but he didn't so he left.

I'm not writing off Denver this season but if Jokic wants to win more rings he needs to give the FO an ultimatum. Surround him with more talent or he leaves. He's under contract for another 3 years minimum but he can demand a trade.

Well it's true. It's funny how your argument is to stop using context and go only by rings. But then you bend your argument to use context that despite Murray never being an All-Star, he is of the same quality. I think to make an all-star is a decent measure because it's going up against your peers, and to win a ring you need minimum 2-3 players who will be greater than the sum of their peers. That's literally what competition is. So the measure of having 0 all-star nods perfectly encapsulates what Murray is, because he is so streaky and injury-prone.

[mjekase]

Originally Posted by daeve

I'm going to keep saying it because it does matter. Can't deal with team context? Go watch tennis, golf, boxing etc.

Nobody has done more with less. I guess of the top 10 you could maybe say Duncan? But he had the Admiral for his 1st ring, then a HOF PG in TP for the rest, and probably the greatest 6th man ever as the cherry on top. With a top 5 coach all-time.

Nowitzki is the closest comp, top-10 or not. He went to two Finals and won one, both without a second All-Star. He technically played with two guys who each made the All-Star team once in that era, but 36-year old Jason Kidd and Josh Howard aren't much different than Jamal Murray.

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by cms11

How many of the top 10 players only had one title by age 30? Even Durant had two titles by 30.

Love this troll attempt. Excellent.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by daeve

Well it's true. It's funny how your argument is to stop using context and go only by rings. But then you bend your argument to use context that despite Murray never being an All-Star, he is of the same quality. I think to make an all-star is a decent measure because it's going up against your peers, and to win a ring you need minimum 2-3 players who will be greater than the sum of their peers. That's literally what competition is. So the measure of having 0 all-star nods perfectly encapsulates what Murray is, because he is so streaky and injury-prone.

I'll put a bow on what I'm saying

Player A - 1 ring, multiple MVPs and a bunch of other regular season accolades

Player B - 4 rings, multiple MVPs and a bunch of other regular season accolades

No context is going to get player A in the discussion with player B because rings matter more than quality teammates.

The ONLY context that really matters in the ring discussion is when the league had 8 teams. Of course 11 rings has an asterisk when the league was tiny.

History will prove me right.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by mjekase

Nowitzki is the closest comp, top-10 or not. He went to two Finals and won one, both without a second All-Star. He technically played with two guys who each made the All-Star team once in that era, but 36-year old Jason Kidd and Josh Howard aren't much different than Jamal Murray.

You're forgetting DPOY Tyson Chandler. Yes I know he won it the next year but he was likely given that due to his getting snubbed the year they won. He did finish 3rd in DPOY voting the year Dallas won. Think about how much easier the game would be for Jokic if Gordon was a DPOY level defender.

[jcardstore]

Non-stop excuses

[daeve]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

Non-stop excuses

sorry the facts are getting in the way of your narrative.

Tyson Chandler - 1x All-Star, DPOY, 3x All-Defense nods.

Aaron Gordon - NBA Slam dunk runner-up

[BGT Masters]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Only one consensus top 10 player of all time has ever won the DPOY award.

You don't have to have DPOY awards to be a great defender, nor do you have to have scoring titles to be a great scorer. I'm saying is to be all time top ten great you have to be great offensively and defensively. I could argue Hakeem Olajuwon in the top ten. Certainly on the lower wrong of it but there is no shame in that.

He played great defense and was a great offensive player as well. Big men of his caliber, Joker would struggle against badly.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by daeve

sorry the facts are getting in the way of your narrative.

Tyson Chandler - 1x All-Star, DPOY, 3x All-Defense nods.

Aaron Gordon - NBA Slam dunk runner-up

I honestly hope the Nuggets win the title this year otherwise you're going to be unbearable. Amigo level homer bad.

Everything is a yea but or an excuse. X didn't happen because ABC reasons and context blah blah, if this then that.... If it was a full moon on a tuesday and Murray used a blue heating pad while Aaron Gordon was doing cartwheels they definitely would've won the title

[mjekase]

Originally Posted by daeve

sorry the facts are getting in the way of your narrative.

Tyson Chandler - 1x All-Star, DPOY, 3x All-Defense nods.

Aaron Gordon - NBA Slam dunk runner-up

With the exception of a 2nd-team All-Defense nod, Chandler did all of that after he played with Nowitzki.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by mjekase

With the exception of a 2nd-team All-Defense nod, Chandler did all of that after he played with Nowitzki.

He finished 3rd in DPOY voting that year. Dwight had a monster 14.4 WS season and wasn't going to lose DPOY after D Rose stole MVP from him. KG only finished above Chandler because someone gave him a single 1st place vote while Chandler got none. Probably due to reputation as 34yo KG wasn't better than Chandler that year, not defensively.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by mjekase

With the exception of a 2nd-team All-Defense nod, Chandler did all of that after he played with Nowitzki.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

And then I provide excellent context while you provide laugh emoji. Did you fall and hit your head? You were doing so well and now you're degrading yourself to a casual.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by daeve

And then I provide excellent context while you provide laugh emoji. Did you fall and hit your head? You were doing so well and now you're degrading yourself to a casual.

What do you want me to say? This is so far away from the original discussion there's nothing to add.

I can find a million ways to nitpick individual seasons in a players career on any team you want

[daeve]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

What do you want me to say? This is so far away from the original discussion there's nothing to add.

I can find a million ways to nitpick individual seasons in a players career on any team you want

You can stop trying to dumb down the argument at every turn. The argument presented now is that Jokic is closer to Dirk due to "doing more with less" or 1 ring with very little. My argument is that Dirk still had more. He had bar none the best defender in the West in Chandler, who was nearing his peak as he finished 3rd [pretty much 2nd to a monster Dwight] and then parlayed that Finals run and next season into DPOY.

Older HOFer Kidd vs Murray is maybe close. Kidd probably less ceiling but more stability, better defender, and way better decisions than Murray. Probably a push due to age. Josh Howard or MPJ, I could see an argument either way but again Howard had a recent A-S nod in his belt. MPJ won't be getting one I don't think.

Also Dirk had but one MVP while Joker is on #3.

[Chris P]

Originally Posted by daeve

You can stop trying to dumb down the argument at every turn. The argument presented now is that Jokic is closer to Dirk due to "doing more with less" or 1 ring with very little. My argument is that Dirk still had more. He had bar none the best defender in the West in Chandler, who was nearing his peak as he finished 3rd [pretty much 2nd to a monster Dwight] and then parlayed that Finals run and next season into DPOY.

Older HOFer Kidd vs Murray is maybe close. Kidd probably less ceiling but more stability, better defender, and way better decisions than Murray. Probably a push due to age. Josh Howard or MPJ, I could see an argument either way but again Howard had a recent A-S nod in his belt. MPJ won't be getting one I don't think.

Also Dirk had but one MVP while Joker is on #3.

Josh howard wasnt on the title team. Caron butler was and was their 2nd leading scorer but missed the playoffs with an injury

[yiguiri2002]

I love Joker but I do think the All-Star/All-NBA thing needs to be put to rest.

In this era, where players are opening pushing front offices to go play with a star, why hasn't a single one wanted to go to Denver? It's on the front office to build a better team around Joker. It's absurd that he's gonna go down as a Top 20 player of all time and his best teammate has been Jamal Murray.

I'll like to see what happens this offseason, specially if they lose to the Wolves in 6 or less and Minny doesn't make the Finals. They got away with MPJ's contract because of the title but there should be some pressure on them acting and getting another star (or at least, borderline star) to play with Joker.

On the meantime, yeah, he's not gonna be a Top 10 player. He needs at least 2 titles. That's what all the guys in the Top 10 (including borderline ones) have in common. I don't think he has to be the best player in two championship teams though so he can always request a trade to go somewhere else and win more titles.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by daeve

You can stop trying to dumb down the argument at every turn. The argument presented now is that Jokic is closer to Dirk due to "doing more with less" or 1 ring with very little. My argument is that Dirk still had more. He had bar none the best defender in the West in Chandler, who was nearing his peak as he finished 3rd [pretty much 2nd to a monster Dwight] and then parlayed that Finals run and next season into DPOY.

Older HOFer Kidd vs Murray is maybe close. Kidd probably less ceiling but more stability, better defender, and way better decisions than Murray. Probably a push due to age. Josh Howard or MPJ, I could see an argument either way but again Howard had a recent A-S nod in his belt. MPJ won't be getting one I don't think.

Also Dirk had but one MVP while Joker is on #3.

This can all be true AND both players be in the same legacy tier.

[boxbuster7]

If Denver comes back and wins this minnesota series Jokic is the GOAT

[Zedlaw]

If we are talking narratives Denver won with 51.5 wins and +1800 preseason odds then came into their defense year at 52.5 wins and +450. While Dallas title season entered at 49.5 wins and +2000 with their defense season coming in at 44.5 and +850. The public definitely viewed this Denver team being better those Dallas teams. Jokic is in Hakeem territory. Solid cast but will never win 60 but can turn it up for the playoffs and if things fall their way can win a couple titles

[boxbuster7]

He's won 3 of the last 4 mvps - you Joker haters are something else

hakeem won 1 mvp

[mjekase]

Originally Posted by boxbuster7

hakeem won 1 mvp

And 2 DPOYs...
And 2 Finals MVPs....

[Zedlaw]

I thought being in Hakeem’s company was a compliment. Strongly in the top 10 argument. I take it you want him next to Moses?

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by Zedlaw

I thought being in Hakeem’s company was a compliment. Strongly in the top 10 argument

Jokic needs another ring at minimum to be in the convo w/ Hakeem.


1 title, 1 FMVP, 3x MVP, 4x 1st team

vs

2 titles, 2 FMVP, 1x MVP, 2x DPOY, 3x blk leader, 2x reb leader, 6x 1st team all nba, 5x 1st team all defense.

The recency bias on these forums is so crazy.

If you put these 2 blind resumes next to each other nobody is saying they're in the same tier.

[boxbuster7]

Originally Posted by Zedlaw

I thought being in Hakeem’s company was a compliment. Strongly in the top 10 argument. I take it you want him next to Moses?

Jesus Christ