What will it take for Joker to be in top 10 conversation?

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

from the (big) '24 playoffs thread



documentation on someone guaranteeing he'd get a ring this season would be hilarious, thanks in advance

I think the only "guarantee" anyone made is that if he does win a ring this season, he would be squarely in the top-10 discussion, even if it's merely being tied for 10th in the end. But since times have changed, standards have changed; since MJ didn't need 11+ rings to be the GOAT, Jokic might in the end not even need 2 rings to end up top-10 all-time given the competition levels.

It might depend on how teams like MIN end up looking as they mature and reach peak. If MIN turns out to be a juggernaut, then Jokic doesn't look so weak. If this is just Jokic/DEN failing to high-BBIQ their way out of this kind of situation, then he looks like he "couldn't get it done when the heat was turned up" (blah blah blah etc), somehow all of a sudden. But I know what defense I saw from MIN last night and it looked championship-level and whether or not Jokic is a championship-level team leader, he might just not have championship-level support at this point given the arms race in today's league.

In the 2020 'yoffs, the Nugs went down 3-1 twice before winning series, do they have what it takes to pull out another comeback?

1 ring all time puts him in the Dirk/KG/Oscar tier. Pretty clearly below the top 10 caliber guys.

Borderline top 10 now are Curry/Kobe. 1 ring ain't gonna get you in the legacy conversation with those guys, don't care how great your advanced analytics were.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

1 ring all time puts him in the Dirk/KG/Oscar tier. Pretty clearly below the top 10 caliber guys.

Borderline top 10 now are Curry/Kobe. 1 ring ain't gonna get you in the legacy conversation with those guys, don't care how great your advanced analytics were.

Agree. There’s too many players to sort. Something has to separate them. It’s not crazy for anyone to say I’d rather have ______ any of those guys you named over Jokic. But he is great.

[duron]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

1 ring all time puts him in the Dirk/KG/Oscar tier. Pretty clearly below the top 10 caliber guys.

Borderline top 10 now are Curry/Kobe. 1 ring ain't gonna get you in the legacy conversation with those guys, don't care how great your advanced analytics were.

Ruh-roh

Here come the advanced analytics posts

[daeve]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

1 ring all time puts him in the Dirk/KG/Oscar tier. Pretty clearly below the top 10 caliber guys.

Borderline top 10 now are Curry/Kobe. 1 ring ain't gonna get you in the legacy conversation with those guys, don't care how great your advanced analytics were.

1 ring but 3.5 MVPs and 0 all-star teammates, the context is important. And I'm not arguing he's top 10 right now, but he's not far away from the conversation.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by daeve

1 ring but 3.5 MVPs and 0 all-star teammates, the context is important. And I'm not arguing he's top 10 right now, but he's not far away from the conversation.

You can say this 1000000000000 times more and it's still never going to matter.

Nobody cares. You either win or you don't. At the end of the day, in a decade, nobody will dissect his teams and whether he had enough help or not. Are people doing that for Malone, Barkley, Baylor? Nope

1 ring is not enough to get you in the top10 discussion. You can feel some type of way about that, but it won't matter. Even guys who are in the borderline discussion ALL have multiple rings.

Ring #2+ is the only thing that could put him above KG/Dirk/Oscar in a legacy conversation.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by daeve

1 ring but 3.5 MVPs and 0 all-star teammates, the context is important. And I'm not arguing he's top 10 right now, but he's not far away from the conversation.

To get into the top 10, he needs to toss someone OUT of ten top 10. You can’t have 11 top ten players of all time.

So the big question is - who do you knock out for joker?

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

To get into the top 10, he needs to toss someone OUT of ten top 10. You can’t have 11 top ten players of all time.

So the big question is - who do you knock out for joker?

This is what I'm saying. It's either Steph, Kobe, or Hakeem. He's not in a tier with those guys until he gets another ring, period.

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

To get into the top 10, he needs to toss someone OUT of ten top 10. You can’t have 11 top ten players of all time.

So the big question is - who do you knock out for joker?

Who do you have in?

[Chris P]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

Who do you have in?

Not Lebron x 10 lol

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

Who do you have in?

Jordan, Magic, Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Kobe, Wilt, Bron, Shaq and Bird.

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by Chris P

Not Lebron x 10 lol

If he is not on it that invalidates any list and, hence, any arguments.

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Jordan, Magic, Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Kobe, Wilt, Bron, Shaq and Bird.

I’m down with that.

The only one I see him bumping could be Duncan, maybe Kobe.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

I’m down with that.

The only one I see him bumping could be Duncan, maybe Kobe.

They both played major roles in winning five rings, it will be tough for joker to supplant them with anything less than four.

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

They both played major roles in winning five rings, it will be tough for joker to supplant them with anything less than four.

His greatest asset now is his age. He is the only one of them that can do more.

He might not do much more with crybaby Murray as #2.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

His greatest asset now is his age. He is the only one of them that can do more.

He might not do much more with crybaby Murray as #2.

MPJ could rise up as 2 and they could replace crybaby down the line.

[hermanotarjeta]

IMO, the lowest hanging fruit in the top 10 are Bird, Wilt, Bron and Shaq.

Joker would need five or more rings to jump them all.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

You can say this 1000000000000 times more and it's still never going to matter.

Nobody cares. You either win or you don't. At the end of the day, in a decade, nobody will dissect his teams and whether he had enough help or not. Are people doing that for Malone, Barkley, Baylor? Nope

1 ring is not enough to get you in the top10 discussion. You can feel some type of way about that, but it won't matter. Even guys who are in the borderline discussion ALL have multiple rings.

Ring #2+ is the only thing that could put him above KG/Dirk/Oscar in a legacy conversation.

I'm going to keep saying it because it does matter. Can't deal with team context? Go watch tennis, golf, boxing etc.

Nobody has done more with less. I guess of the top 10 you could maybe say Duncan? But he had the Admiral for his 1st ring, then a HOF PG in TP for the rest, and probably the greatest 6th man ever as the cherry on top. With a top 5 coach all-time.

Mike Malone won't be remembered for anything other than Jokic carrying this entire damn franchise on his back. Every year in the playoffs people would pop in with a "Murray will be an all-star next year", still hasn't happened. And after his showing this playoffs, he's gonna need to be Bubble Murray all through January to get a nod next year. MPJ gonna get one? Doubt it. Gordon?

The closest top 10 comp is probably Curry. Both incendiary offensive players, best shooter ever to Joker's best passer ever. Both not the greatest at defense but worked hard to become good enough to win. Both put their loser franchises on the map. Prime Klay and Draymond >>>> Murray/Gordon though. Not even close. Kerr >>>>>>> Malone. And that's without even mentioning KD yet.

[asujbl]

Scoring 25 when the FanDuel boost is 25 points

Edwards got his 25

Cost me $50

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

IMO, the lowest hanging fruit in the top 10 are Bird, Wilt, Bron and Shaq.

Joker would need five or more rings to jump them all.

Quoted

Not for the Joker part

You’re such an idiot. I respect it at this point

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by asujbl

Quoted

Not for the Joker part

You’re such an idiot. I respect it at this point

Their biggest threat right now isn’t even Joker, it’s Bron-daddy Curry.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by daeve

I'm going to keep saying it because it does matter. Can't deal with team context? Go watch tennis, golf, boxing etc.

Nobody has done more with less. I guess of the top 10 you could maybe say Duncan? But he had the Admiral for his 1st ring, then a HOF PG in TP for the rest, and probably the greatest 6th man ever as the cherry on top. With a top 5 coach all-time.

Mike Malone won't be remembered for anything other than Jokic carrying this entire damn franchise on his back. Every year in the playoffs people would pop in with a "Murray will be an all-star next year", still hasn't happened. And after his showing this playoffs, he's gonna need to be Bubble Murray all through January to get a nod next year. MPJ gonna get one? Doubt it. Gordon?

The closest top 10 comp is probably Curry. Both incendiary offensive players, best shooter ever to Joker's best passer ever. Both not the greatest at defense but worked hard to become good enough to win. Both put their loser franchises on the map. Prime Klay and Draymond >>>> Murray/Gordon though. Not even close. Kerr >>>>>>> Malone. And that's without even mentioning KD yet.

You can die on this hill. It's just funny because I know you know how worthless the title of "all-star" is. As if Jokic is just playing with a bunch of g leaguers. Or if Murray suddenly gets a random all-star spot it changes the team dynamic at all (it doesn't)

I've never seen someone make more excuses and what-ifs for a player.

The greatest players ever win, that's as simple as it gets. If you don't get rings, nobody is gonna care about any of these lame arguments

[daeve]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

You can die on this hill. It's just funny because I know you know how worthless the title of "all-star" is. As if Jokic is just playing with a bunch of g leaguers. Or if Murray suddenly gets a random all-star spot it changes the team dynamic at all (it doesn't)

I've never seen someone make more excuses and what-ifs for a player.

The greatest players ever win, that's as simple as it gets. If you don't get rings, nobody is gonna care about any of these lame arguments

Never said Murray was worthless or a G-leaguer. He's tremendously talented and tremendously flawed. How many players do we have to see leave Denver and turn into pumpkins before people get it? How many times has "Bruce Brown" been mentioned in the playoffs thread already? Why didn't Indiana keep him? Are they stupid?

Being realistic about what he's surrounded by is not making excuses/what-ifs. Murray has had great playoff series, not denying that. He's 27 now though, so I think he is what he is. A capable microwave-hot scorer, which helps when he's on. When he's not or if he's playing hurt, it gets ugly. He gets tunnel vision and forgets he's playing with a savant passer who could get others involved if he didn't become a chucker. Malone doesn't have the cajones to call Murray out on it either.

[cms11]

How many of the top 10 players only had one title by age 30? Even Durant had two titles by 30.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by daeve

Never said Murray was worthless or a G-leaguer. He's tremendously talented and tremendously flawed. How many players do we have to see leave Denver and turn into pumpkins before people get it? How many times has "Bruce Brown" been mentioned in the playoffs thread already? Why didn't Indiana keep him? Are they stupid?

Being realistic about what he's surrounded by is not making excuses/what-ifs. Murray has had great playoff series, not denying that. He's 27 now though, so I think he is what he is. A capable microwave-hot scorer, which helps when he's on. When he's not or if he's playing hurt, it gets ugly. He gets tunnel vision and forgets he's playing with a savant passer who could get others involved if he didn't become a chucker. Malone doesn't have the cajones to call Murray out on it either.

You keep saying no all stars as if Murray isn't an all-star caliber player.

Aaron Gordon has been phenomenal. MPJ is a great role player. etc...

It's getting to the point in his career where he needs to decide whether he wants to go chase rings or not.

Bron couldn't win a ring with bums for his first 7 years in Cleveland. If he had a player half as good as Murray he probably would have won a ring but he didn't so he left.

I'm not writing off Denver this season but if Jokic wants to win more rings he needs to give the FO an ultimatum. Surround him with more talent or he leaves. He's under contract for another 3 years minimum but he can demand a trade.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by cms11

How many of the top 10 players only had one title by age 30? Even Durant had two titles by 30.

lol perfect comment, no notes.