Kurt's Card Care F'ed around and found out

[williemayshayes]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Wait? Are you going to tell me you don't have the capability to tell that the card has been altered? Are you being deceived in any way by this?

An IP Auto that has a PSA 10 grade is generally less desirable than a non Auto'd PSA of the same card and usually sell for less money. Just like a pressed comic book is worth less than an non-pressed comic graded the same. Isn't the whole point of this that any type of restoration/alteration/cleaning should be disclosed so consumers can make an informed decision?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the biggest issue is the deception surrounding the alterations. An IP auto is pretty easy to see, so I guess I'm not sure what the problem is?

I can tell the difference.
There are countless threads on this site alone where newer consumers don't understand the differences.

My point..if adding autographs are alterations, why is PSA in the business of grading altered cards?

Maybe you need to come up with a list of acceptable alterations and create a 1-10 scale...you know for transparency purposes.

1=trimmed
10 = ip autos

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Size is only one way to detect trimming. And if is the only method used, a terrible way to detect triming. Looking at the edge under magnification and examining both the cut, and the paper is far more telling. The problem is that graders rarely have the time to do it properly.

The blade that is used to cut cards from the 60’s are not superior to those that can be used to trim cards today. I’m not convinced that PSA expert graders can tell the difference on the edges based on microfiber patterns under microscope examination. They have let many, many cards pass through and continue to do so today.

I agree, they don’t spend the time to detect these subtle differences and hence the bottom line is - there are numerous trimmed and altered cards in PSA holders.

In addition, size is something any high school dropout could detect, and people pay these “experts” to certify their cards as unaltered? A complete joke.

It goes back to - assume all the graded cards you buy, especially on the internet where you can’t inspect in person, to be altered.

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

But none of that changes the fact that someone who knows what they are doing and can properly inspect a card will find virtually all types of alterations. The fact that uneducated, non-experts don't, does not prove that they aren't detectable.

I educated myself and I even trimmed destroyed vintage cards to try to see how edges look under a loupe. I would disagree with your statement. I can find some alterations, but there are a lot of things that I wouldn't catch or would fall in a gray area that I wouldn't be sure about. It is even more difficult trying to see something inside of a plastic slab. That is why I like to grade all cards myself when possible.

[larry25]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

I educated myself and I even trimmed destroyed vintage cards to try to see how edges look under a loupe. I would disagree with your statement. I can find some alterations, but there are a lot of things that I wouldn't catch or would fall in a gray area that I wouldn't be sure about. It is even more difficult trying to see something inside of a plastic slab. That is why I like to grade all cards myself when possible.

And what about if the trimmed edge is then further manipulated to look original? So many of the cards called out in the trimming threads here have edges that look to be "rebuilt." If not for before and after pics, those would be impossible to detect. EDIT TO ADD: Serious question, for every one card that has been found out here with before and after pics, how many others are there that have gotten by because of no before and after pics? 100? 1,000? 10,000?

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by williemayshayes

I can tell the difference.
There are countless threads on this site alone where newer consumers don't understand the differences.

My point..if adding autographs are alterations, why is PSA in the business of grading altered cards?

Maybe you need to come up with a list of acceptable alterations and create a 1-10 scale...you know for transparency purposes.

1=trimmed
10 = ip autos

Again, the issue doesn't lie with altered cards in general, the issue lies with the deception behind it. The issue is when people conceal the fact that a card has been altered. An IP auto is visibly disclosed.

Look at the comments about the coin/comic/art world. Altered comic books are graded all the time, restored coins are graded and sold.

[bub838]

It cracks me up when people talk about using gloves and loupes to check their ultra modern base Wemby's when the dude at PSA making $16/hour just could not give less than of a damn

[williemayshayes]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Again, the issue doesn't lie with altered cards in general, the issue lies with the deception behind it. The issue is when people conceal the fact that a card has been altered. An IP auto is visibly disclosed.

Look at the comments about the coin/comic/art world. Altered comic books are graded all the time, restored coins are graded and sold.

Kurt visibly exposed the alterations.

PSA should reactivate the submission because the alterations were made public?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by larry25

And what about if the trimmed edge is then further manipulated to look original? So many of the cards called out in the trimming threads here have edges that look to be "rebuilt." If not for before and after pics, those would be impossible to detect. EDIT TO ADD: Serious question, for every one card that has been found out here with before and after pics, how many others are there that have gotten by because of no before and after pics? 100? 1,000? 10,000?

more difficult != impossible

And to your edit, you are referencing people finding alterations via photographs. Of course before and after pictures are necessary for that method. There's a big difference between looking at a photo of a card and inspecting it in your hand under magnification.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by williemayshayes

Kurt visibly exposed the alterations.

PSA should reactivate the submission because the alterations were made public?

If Kurt and PSA want to meet up and reslab those cards with a correct disclosure of the alterations and update the database to note this to provide easy look up to the consumer, absolutely reactivate those cards.

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by whitmm

If Kurt and PSA want to meet up and reslab those cards with a correct disclosure of the alterations and update the database to note this to provide easy look up to the consumer, absolutely reactivate those cards.

Now THAT would be a game changer. But Kurt and cronies would never agree as they know their value would vanish

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by hxcmilkshake

Now THAT would be a game changer. But Kurt and cronies would never agree as they know their value would vanish

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Exactly.

That's the whole debate. Let's get transparency. Again, maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't think a lot of people would have any problems with altered cards being graded, as long as things are disclosed.

[atoaz12]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

Wish folks would use the appropriate terminology when discussing these things.

Cleaning
Alteration
Restoration

The continuous misuse and conflation of these terms makes my head want to explode

Preach

[atoaz12]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Wiping the surface of a card, without causing any change to the card itself is not "cleaning" a card as it is being used here. We are talking about literally cleaning the fibers of the card by soaking or using a substance, or buffing the surface which can alter the actual surface of the card. No one is talking about wiping some dust or fingerprints off a card with a microfiber cloth.

It is you who seems to be misusing the term "cleaning" when it comes to card alterations.

Taking something off/getting something out of a card that was not originally on the card without altering the original state of the card is bad?

PSA examines the surface of the card. If it actually altered the surface of the card, as you state, it would be caught as long as PSA was doing their job.

[boxbuster7]

The more I think about this the more selfish jerk I think this kurt guy is.

We all know he just cares about profit and not the integrity of the industry.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by boxbuster7

The more I think about this the more selfish jerk I think this kurt guy is.

We all know he just cares about profit and not the integrity of the industry.

You could say the same thing about TPGs!

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by atoaz12

Taking something off/getting something out of a card that was not originally on the card without altering the original state of the card is bad?

PSA examines the surface of the card. If it actually altered the surface of the card, as you state, it would be caught as long as PSA was doing their job.

You completely missed what I wrote. I said IF it alters the surface of the card it would be an alteration. I did not say all cleaning of the surface alters the surface. My whole point was there is cleaning (e.g. wiping the surface) and there is "cleaning" that is part of the definition of alteration, because it alters the state/condition of the card itself (e.g. soaking, polishing and chemicals). I specifially said we are NOT talking about things that don't change the card itself. If you are trying to imply that polishing doesn't change the surface of the card, just because PSA can't detect it, all that means is you don't understand what happens when something is polished. The surface, by definition, is literally altered. You can't remove a scratch in the card without adding to or taking away from the card itself. And that is alteration, whether PSA catches it or not.

[cardsin47]

What would you want to see in this situation?
( It is fictional, but could happen since I have his kit and raw cards )

I use Kurt’s Card Care to polish a cards surfaces, and use the edge tool to smooth out the edges / corners ( it’s just a smooth round piece of rubber ) and then grade that card at PSA and it grades a Mint 9 in the normal holder.
I then list it on eBay as a PSA Mint 9 blah blah blah

Do you think I should add in my auction notes the use of the cleaner and edge tool, or is the PSA grade / certification all you need to see for condition assessment? ( plus pics of course )

.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

What would you want to see in this situation?
( It is fictional, but could happen since I have his kit and raw cards )

I use Kurt’s Card Care to polish a cards surfaces, and use the edge tool to smooth out the edges / corners ( it’s just a smooth round piece of rubber ) and then grade that card at PSA and it grades a Mint 9 in the normal holder.
I then list it on eBay as a PSA Mint 9 blah blah blah

Do you think I should add in my auction notes the use of the cleaner and edge tool, or is the PSA grade / certification all you need to see for condition assessment? ( plus pics of course )

.

You need not say anything. PSA has already spoken for you.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

You need not say anything. PSA has already spoken for you.

That sounds like something a scummy altered card seller would say.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

That sounds like something a scummy altered card seller would say.

Would the altered card seller still be scummy if s/he had no idea it was altered because they purchased the card in a PSA 9 holder from someone else who purchased the card without any knowledge that it was altered?

[hermanotarjeta]

Who is more scummy, the person who altered the original card or the company who certified that the altered card was not altered?

[boxbuster7]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

You could say the same thing about TPGs!

true...except tag - I heard they care.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by boxbuster7

true...except tag - I heard they care.

And I heard PSA is the industry standard!

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Who is more scummy, the person who altered the original card or the company who certified that the altered card was not altered?

Depends. Did the company honor a guarantee to make the owner of the card whole?

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

What would you want to see in this situation?
( It is fictional, but could happen since I have his kit and raw cards )

I use Kurt’s Card Care to polish a cards surfaces, and use the edge tool to smooth out the edges / corners ( it’s just a smooth round piece of rubber ) and then grade that card at PSA and it grades a Mint 9 in the normal holder.
I then list it on eBay as a PSA Mint 9 blah blah blah

Do you think I should add in my auction notes the use of the cleaner and edge tool, or is the PSA grade / certification all you need to see for condition assessment? ( plus pics of course )

.

What I would want to see is that you disclose to PSA when you submit the card anything you've done to the card. Nothing super detailed. A simple "used polish" "fixed corner." Saves PSA time trying to detect those types of issues. They can focus simply on grading the card. They grade it and slab it. On the label, there would be a note that is altered, doesn't need detail. The registry would have that information of the "restoration" done to the card.

At that point you have all the information to make your informed decision. The issue with just putting it in your auction notes is that the buyer/next seller of the card may not do that. Get things attached to the cert number and it fixes a lot of things.