What will it take for Joker to be in top 10 conversation?

[yiguiri2002]

It's hilarious people think he needs 4-5 titles to crack the Top 10.

He doesn't. How many people have won that many titles as the best player on their team? MJ, LeBron, Russell, Magic, TD, maybe Steph. 6 at best.

Also, peaks carry a lot of weight. Larry Legend's totals compared to the rest of the Top 10 aren't great but he was one of the Top 3 players in the game for almost a decade.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by yiguiri2002

It's hilarious people think he needs 4-5 titles to crack the Top 10.

He doesn't. How many people have won that many titles as the best player on their team? MJ, LeBron, Russell, Magic, TD, maybe Steph. 6 at best.

Also, peaks carry a lot of weight. Larry Legend's totals compared to the rest of the Top 10 aren't great but he was one of the Top 3 players in the game for almost a decade.

Who does he bump out of the top 10? I don’t have Kobe in my top 10 but Jokic isn’t even there yet. Gonna need at least 3 rings to pass Hakeem too

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by yiguiri2002

It's hilarious people think he needs 4-5 titles to crack the Top 10.

He doesn't. How many people have won that many titles as the best player on their team? MJ, LeBron, Russell, Magic, TD, maybe Steph. 6 at best.

Also, peaks carry a lot of weight. Larry Legend's totals compared to the rest of the Top 10 aren't great but he was one of the Top 3 players in the game for almost a decade.

I'm trying to find where anyone said he needs 5 titles to crack the top 10?

I think people seem to be counting Denver as champs this season, but it's pretty hard to go back to back. We shall see

[daeve]

Originally Posted by the mesiah

You care enough to post dummy ,

continuing to add to your incredibly stupid argument. great job. Do you knock Lebron for his assists also? Does he not play enough like Scottie Pippen for your tastes?

[the mesiah]

Originally Posted by daeve

continuing to add to your incredibly stupid argument. great job. Do you knock Lebron for his assists also? Does he not play enough like Scottie Pippen for your tastes?

He doesn’t play enough like Cousy for my taste dummy..

[daeve]

Originally Posted by the mesiah

He doesn’t play enough like Cousy for my taste dummy..

alright we're done here - enough name-calling because you lack the facilities to craft an argument. Yes, I'm the dummy, the dummy who hoarded Jokic prizm bass for $1.50 per back when he was Nurkic' backup and people of your ilk were calling it 'Poopnini' because anything new/different scares you

[the mesiah]

Originally Posted by daeve

alright we're done here - enough name-calling because you lack the facilities to craft an argument. Yes, I'm the dummy, the dummy who hoarded Jokic prizm bass for $1.50 per back when he was Nurkic' backup and people of your ilk were calling it 'Poopnini' because anything new/different scares you

[boxbuster7]

Lose to Wembanyama

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by yiguiri2002

It's hilarious people think he needs 4-5 titles to crack the Top 10.

He doesn't. How many people have won that many titles as the best player on their team? MJ, LeBron, Russell, Magic, TD, maybe Steph. 6 at best.

Also, peaks carry a lot of weight. Larry Legend's totals compared to the rest of the Top 10 aren't great but he was one of the Top 3 players in the game for almost a decade.

The issue I think he faces even against a guy like Shaq is the all-encompassing legacy. Humans aren't computers. We don't always rank solely based off binary statistics. Shaq anchored a Lakers dynasty and was/is a cultural phenom for the greater part of 2 decades.

If sports were only about numbers we wouldn't hold guys like Ali and MJ to near-mythical standards.

I do think Yoker has the capability of surprassing a guy like Hakeem in due time, but again...it's such a difficult 1 to 1 correlation. Hakeem was a top 5 defensive big of all time while mating it to one smoothest offensive games ever seen at the position.

You teleport a dude like Nikola to the 80's and 90's, and I don't even know if coaches would even begin to entertain the notion of rolling him out as a ball-dominant offensive facilitator. Completely different eras.


The bigger part of J's point is that all the guys in the top 10 already have the cumulative numbers but also teamed it with dynasty rings.

So it's absolutely fair to say he needs at least 2 more rings to even begin to spark any kind of legitimate discussion, because his counting stats are nowhere close to some of the others he'll be pitted against.


He's young enough to get there, but not everything is a guarantee, especially with bigs entering their 30's.


FWIW Shaq had 3 fmvp's. So it's very easy to make the argument he was the best and truly indispensable component on LA during their run.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by daeve

And I don't care if he doesn't fit your narrative of 'what a 5 is supposed to do'. Incredibly stupid argument you're forming here.

Originally Posted by the mesiah

You care enough to post dummy ,

he cares enough to post what's relevant to the thread subject, he cares about what makes for winning basketball whether or not a team's 5 is a top rim-protector

you OTOH led with your chin by neglecting to mention his assists, and then call names

To revise/update my earlier comments: first, do a simple eye-test of Joker's game against that of the other legends found on Hardwood Classics. Compare his production in the Finals/playoffs to, say, Shaq's 00-02 threepeat. Then do a timeline adjustment. Then differentiate between top players and top careers. (Longevity matters somewhat for the latter, but it should matter less and less the longer the numbers accumulate. LeBron's famous longevity hardly moves the needle if he isn't doing what usually counts the most in these rankings, which is getting rings. Note that Mr. Russell played all of 13 seasons to Bron's 21+)

Jokic doesn't yet have a top-10 career, I don't know about top 12. And it would obviously be idiotic not to take into account support/team factors such as the precarious Bubblemurray health situation; only an idiot could discount Joker for not having much of a playoff showing in '21 and '22. Only an idiot would fail to factor how much MJ was getting done without a matured Pippen, when we're piling on playoff accolades.

And it appears few folks are willing to put in anywhere near the kind of work/thought on these questions that a Bill James-level analyst does. The idea of not doing timeline adjustments in a well-defined way is ludicrous. People seem to grasp that as a basic concept when it comes to Mikan's 5 titles or Russell's 11, but I don't see a lot of rigor beyond that.

[rats60]

Lol!!! Says the guy who makes the most simplistic arguments on this board.
Jokic's first 9 seasons 21.0 PPG 10.7 RPG 6.9 APG
Oscar Robertson's first 10 seasons 29.3 PPG 8.5 RPG 10.3 APG

Jokic 3x All NBA 1st team Oscar 9x 1st team All NBA.

When you look at more than 2 cherry picked stats you see that Jokic is well short of top 10. He needs to keep doing what he is for several more years and maybe by the end of his career he will be in the discussion for top 10.

Originally Posted by GOATcards

he cares enough to post what's relevant to the thread subject, he cares about what makes for winning basketball whether or not a team's 5 is a top rim-protector

you OTOH led with your chin by neglecting to mention his assists, and then call names

To revise/update my earlier comments: first, do a simple eye-test of Joker's game against that of the other legends found on Hardwood Classics. Compare his production in the Finals/playoffs to, say, Shaq's 00-02 threepeat. Then do a timeline adjustment. Then differentiate between top players and top careers. (Longevity matters somewhat for the latter, but it should matter less and less the longer the numbers accumulate. LeBron's famous longevity hardly moves the needle if he isn't doing what usually counts the most in these rankings, which is getting rings. Note that Mr. Russell played all of 13 seasons to Bron's 21+)

Jokic doesn't yet have a top-10 career, I don't know about top 12. And it would obviously be idiotic not to take into account support/team factors such as the precarious Bubblemurray health situation; only an idiot could discount Joker for not having much of a playoff showing in '21 and '22. Only an idiot would fail to factor how much MJ was getting done without a matured Pippen, when we're piling on playoff accolades.

And it appears few folks are willing to put in anywhere near the kind of work/thought on these questions that a Bill James-level analyst does. The idea of not doing timeline adjustments in a well-defined way is ludicrous. People seem to grasp that as a basic concept when it comes to Mikan's 5 titles or Russell's 11, but I don't see a lot of rigor beyond that.

[TheVolta]

Originally Posted by rats60

Lol!!! Says the guy who makes the most simplistic arguments on this board.
Jokic's first 9 seasons 21.0 PPG 10.7 RPG 6.9 APG
Oscar Robertson's first 10 seasons 29.3 PPG 8.5 RPG 10.3 APG

Jokic 3x All NBA 1st team Oscar 9x 1st team All NBA.

When you look at more than 2 cherry picked stats you see that Jokic is well short of top 10. He needs to keep doing what he is for several more years and maybe by the end of his career he will be in the discussion for top 10.

Yes… let’s all go back to when leagues had less than half the amount of teams and therefore players…. It’s fun to reminisce, isn’t it?

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by rats60

Lol!!! Says the guy who makes the most simplistic arguments on this board.
Jokic's first 9 seasons 21.0 PPG 10.7 RPG 6.9 APG
Oscar Robertson's first 10 seasons 29.3 PPG 8.5 RPG 10.3 APG

Jokic 3x All NBA 1st team Oscar 9x 1st team All NBA.

When you look at more than 2 cherry picked stats you see that Jokic is well short of top 10. He needs to keep doing what he is for several more years and maybe by the end of his career he will be in the discussion for top 10.

projection

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by TheVolta

Yes… let’s all go back to when leagues had less than half the amount of teams and therefore players…. It’s fun to reminisce, isn’t it?

it isn't merely less than half, it's just over one quarter of the number of teams in Oscar's prime compared to today. That's before doing any measuring of the quality of the talent pool. (No Serbians in the Oscar-era NBA. huh.)

an all-NBA selection when there were one quarter the number of teams, should carry about one quarter the weight of one today

that's part of doing timeline adjusting which many opinion-havers don't seem to want to get rigorous about

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by rats60

Lol!!! Says the guy who makes the most simplistic arguments on this board.
Jokic's first 9 seasons 21.0 PPG 10.7 RPG 6.9 APG
Oscar Robertson's first 10 seasons 29.3 PPG 8.5 RPG 10.3 APG

Jokic 3x All NBA 1st team Oscar 9x 1st team All NBA.

My argument being very "simplistic" can be stated in nutshell form as: which player will help you win the most?

With those metrics you cite, Oscar must have led his team to a ring in that 8-team league? He must have won more MVPs than Jokic in that smaller league?

Next you're going to tell us that Wilt's 50 PPG season counts for as much as a 50 PPG season today? Sounds kinda simplistic, couldn't imagine a Bill James-level analyst making that kind of claim, but you are welcome to do you

[boxbuster7]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

The issue I think he faces even against a guy like Shaq is the all-encompassing legacy. Humans aren't computers. We don't always rank solely based off binary statistics. Shaq anchored a Lakers dynasty and was/is a cultural phenom for the greater part of 2 decades.

If sports were only about numbers we wouldn't hold guys like Ali and MJ to near-mythical standards.

I do think Yoker has the capability of surprassing a guy like Hakeem in due time, but again...it's such a difficult 1 to 1 correlation. Hakeem was a top 5 defensive big of all time while mating it to one smoothest offensive games ever seen at the position.

You teleport a dude like Nikola to the 80's and 90's, and I don't even know if coaches would even begin to entertain the notion of rolling him out as a ball-dominant offensive facilitator. Completely different eras.


The bigger part of J's point is that all the guys in the top 10 already have the cumulative numbers but also teamed it with dynasty rings.

So it's absolutely fair to say he needs at least 2 more rings to even begin to spark any kind of legitimate discussion, because his counting stats are nowhere close to some of the others he'll be pitted against.


He's young enough to get there, but not everything is a guarantee, especially with bigs entering their 30's.


FWIW Shaq had 3 fmvp's. So it's very easy to make the argument he was the best and truly indispensable component on LA during their run.

Sir...this is a Wendys - there is way too much logic in this post for a card forum

[sportzking]

Top 10 in conversation? not sure.

IMO he may be top 10 but I feel in modern basketball, fans and media focus more on guards and forwards. Back then it was more about centers, then power forwards. Asides from Jokic and Wemby I don't see the media talking too much about bigs. Maybe Zion, and Anthony Davis but they tend to focus more on negativity.

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by duron

Gotta love the seething going on with the NeW mEdiA

If credibility wasn’t shot already…

We all know why they hate Joker. We all know

[GOATcards]

Top players by award shares since the Jordan era, before the '23-24 season:

LeBron James 8.815
Shaquille O'Neal* 4.380
Tim Duncan* 4.278
Kobe Bryant* 4.202
James Harden 3.656
Giannis Antetokounmpo 3.511
Kevin Durant 3.210
Kevin Garnett* 2.753
Nikola Jokić 2.738
Stephen Curry 2.664
Steve Nash* 2.429
Joel Embiid 2.254

After this season Jokic is expected to rise to around 3.6 award shares which puts him in the top 7 since MJ.

Career playoff VORP-wise, Jokic is still well behind the likes of Tim, Shaq, Kobe (and they're all far behind Bron). Jokic's career playoff BPM is #2 all-time behind MJ.

Since the '21 season - more precisely, since Giannis's Finals win in '21 - Jokic has been widely touted as either the best or most valuable player. (Embiid doesn't log enough playing time for the most-valuable criterion.) 3 MVP wins (expected) over a 4 year stretch. For such a stretch of seasons, how many other players in NBA history could claim a similar distinction?

I guess he'd need at least one more ring (Finals MVP), or have a really good excuse for not winning another one, before he's solidly in the top-10 discussion. (In the discussion, not necessarily in the top 10 ranking.)

Adding: I'd say he's top 6 since the Jordan era (based on career so far), MJ makes 7, LarryMagicKareemWiltRussell makes 12. Half of the top 12 players being since MJ sounds about right with timeline-adjusting.

[boxbuster7]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

We all know why they hate Joker. We all know

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by boxbuster7

"...and a hook shot"

nice ball bouncing on the rim there

[Hellcat]

Originally Posted by yiguiri2002

We might be the only ones that don't have Kobe in our Top 10 lol

I have Hakeem, Kobe and then Chef. I think with a title and FMVP this year, Joker gets to the level just below it even if he retires afterwards.

Clealry you two know nothing about basketball or how to gauge skill.

[the mesiah]

Originally Posted by Hellcat

Clealry you two know nothing about basketball or how to gauge skill.

Him and his counterpart clearly don’t ..among others

[yiguiri2002]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

Who does he bump out of the top 10? I don’t have Kobe in my top 10 but Jokic isn’t even there yet. Gonna need at least 3 rings to pass Hakeem too

I don't think he'll need 3 to pass Hakeem. An MVP and FMVP with another 5 years playing at a high level and I think he passes Hakeem.

Originally Posted by drobfan8

I'm trying to find where anyone said he needs 5 titles to crack the top 10?

I think people seem to be counting Denver as champs this season, but it's pretty hard to go back to back. We shall see

I think it was from another thread. The 4 are from this thread.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Next you're going to tell us that Wilt's 50 PPG season counts for as much as a 50 PPG season today? Sounds kinda simplistic, couldn't imagine a Bill James-level analyst making that kind of claim, but you are welcome to do you

Bill James top 5 baseball players of all time.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Honus Wagner
3. Willie Mays
4. Oscar Charleston
5. Ty Cobb

Looks like you are just wrong as usual.