How Long Has PSA Been Slabbing Sketches With Grades?

[finfangfan]

This popped up just now on COMC (not mine)…



I always thought PSA didn’t grade sketches. Is this new?

I’ve been slabbing sketches with CGC through COMC b/c I didn’t realize PSA was even an option. Might move a couple to PSA in the next batch.

[DynaEtch]

Found a press release from PSA in March 2023 that they started grading sketches again. Says they discontinued the practice due to so many unlicensed sketch cards before, but reinstated it that month.

https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...sketball-cards

Says they must be able to identify the artist, and must be from a major trading card company release and on the checklist. Whether this means APs are fair game, idk, but artist probably has to be on the set checklist at least.

Of course graded sketches are pretty much the bane of my sketch collecting, so this isnt relevant to me outside having to pay more money on rare occasions for a sketch I want that happens to be graded

[finfangfan]

I know you and many others hate them but I’ve grown to love slabs. I’m having a fun time rediscovering my collection by taking stuff out of my closet and into a slab. In the long run it will help my family with identification after I croak and it also creates a nice little image archive as well.

Plus I also have fun when a new batch of slabs come back and I see what grades I get. Kind of similar to the thrill of opening up packs to see what you get. It hits the same for me.

I think I will send a few sketches today to PSA through COMC… starting with this bad guy…

[nabzy28]

Interesting. I couldn't care less about the grading part, but I may be VERY interested in getting them slabbed authentic. Would love having them protected and easily identified. I never really considered it before - and I have a PSA account and have 3 orders with them right now. Will email CS and see if the authentication slabbing is an option. Can't see why not, I guess.

[DynaEtch]

Nice Doom...he just looks so greedy and power hungry lol. It's cool to see the ol FF sketches before they started doing that ban (which I guess is listed now for sketches).

Anyway...looks like a 2007MM. Who is the artist- Acline?

It sure looks like a period piece from the set considering artist signed 2007 and it's a non-AP. I would just double check if you can find it on a checklist somewhere, as for some reason I dont seen an 'Acline' on nslist's artist checklist for 07MM (the only place I know with an artist list). Perhaps they just missed it. I do not know if that will be an issue with PSA or not.

[finfangfan]

Adam Cline… he did some great stuff from like 2007 to 2012osh and then moved away from sketch cards. I sent this one to CGC the other day…

.

I probably would have done PSA had I known.

EDIT: and he’s on Jeff Allender’s checklist so a legit artist for sure. Was quite popular back then…

https://www.nslists.com/mrvmas07.htm

[DynaEtch]

D'oh! My mistake...yep I see A Cline on nslists's checklist.

[glorbgorb]

Originally Posted by DynaEtch

Says they must be able to identify the artist, and must be from a major trading card company release and on the checklist. Whether this means APs are fair game, idk, but artist probably has to be on the set checklist at least.

There's so many questions around all this.

I create artist signature pages, as I have mentioned a few times here. Checklists are... inconsistent to say the least. There are times where Cardboard Connection (RIP) was different from Beckett; both would have things not on ePack, and vice versa.

Since manufacturers do not release reliable checklists anymore (where else would CC/Beckett get them?), then what do the grading companies do to be 100% certain? Yes, it's only a handful of differences between the checklists sometimes, but they are differences.

I have several examples of aftermarkets from artists that DID appear on the set (someone commissioned a blank). Those will slip through and be graded--do you really think PSA is going to contact the artist or scour Instagram to see if a particular card was pack-inserted or not?

I have also seen a few times where an artist's cards were all rejected. No reasons are ever given (a common complaint amongst artists), but they are allowed to keep the APs. Weird corner case, but it's happened probably five times that I know of (meaning there are probably more). Artists do not appear on checklists, but they have valid APs. How are the grading companies going to handle that?

EDIT: And for the artists who do not sign their cards, how much work do they put into those?

[nabzy28]

Originally Posted by glorbgorb

There's so many questions around all this.

I create artist signature pages, as I have mentioned a few times here. Checklists are... inconsistent to say the least. There are times where Cardboard Connection (RIP) was different from Beckett; both would have things not on ePack, and vice versa.

Since manufacturers do not release reliable checklists anymore (where else would CC/Beckett get them?), then what do the grading companies do to be 100% certain? Yes, it's only a handful of differences between the checklists sometimes, but they are differences.

I have several examples of aftermarkets from artists that DID appear on the set (someone commissioned a blank). Those will slip through and be graded--do you really think PSA is going to contact the artist or scour Instagram to see if a particular card was pack-inserted or not?

I have also seen a few times where an artist's cards were all rejected. No reasons are ever given (a common complaint amongst artists), but they are allowed to keep the APs. Weird corner case, but it's happened probably five times that I know of (meaning there are probably more). Artists do not appear on checklists, but they have valid APs. How are the grading companies going to handle that?

I did ask whether they would authenticate sketches from artists that were not on the official list. Will post the response after they reply.

[maneonemo]

Originally Posted by finfangfan

I know you and many others hate them but I’ve grown to love slabs. I’m having a fun time rediscovering my collection by taking stuff out of my closet and into a slab. In the long run it will help my family with identification after I croak and it also creates a nice little image archive as well.

Pro-mold magnetic holder, small handwritten cut post-it note sticked at the top of the holder so that it doesn't overlap the card, and a superior fit sleeve for the holder (and so that the post-it note doesn't move). In my opinion this offers much better protection (including UV which PSA doesn't offer) for a fraction of a cost, without any hassle of shipping the card anywhere. Also, magnetic holders offer much better form factor.

Graded sketches are worth less to me and many collectors than raw because of the effort required to crack them out.

[finfangfan]

For 2016- Upper Deck Marvel, I think *most* of the artists are identified thanks to ePack/COMC partnership, but agree it probably can be tougher to identify/authenticate going backward from 2016.

However a LOT of the MM2007/2008 artists posted scans of their cards back in the day so to the extent that PSA is hiring knowledgeable people I would think a large chunk of those artists would be easily identified/authenticated as well.

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by maneonemo

Pro-mold magnetic holder, small handwritten cut post-it note sticked at the top of the holder so that it doesn't overlap the card, and a superior fit sleeve for the holder (and so that the post-it note doesn't move). In my opinion this offers much better protection (including UV which PSA doesn't offer) for a fraction of a cost, without any hassle of shipping the card anywhere. Also, magnetic holders offer much better form factor.

Graded sketches are worth less to me and many collectors than raw because of the effort required to crack them out.

I can vouch for that. The toughest are BGS slabs, they build them like tanks. Other ones are more or less reasonable to crack but still require some effort. I dont keep graded sketches, so one time when I had a MM08 Spidey sketch in a BGS slab I cracked it out and unfortunately ended up with a very slight crease on the upper right of the card, detailed at the end of the below post. That was pretty annoying. A risk that I understood I was taking on with cracking though.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...7&postcount=68

[webjon]

How PSA can tell if a black and white sketch has been colored or otherwise modified after market and by who?

[glorbgorb]

Originally Posted by maneonemo

Graded sketches are worth less to me and many collectors than raw because of the effort required to crack them out.

I've broken several sketches out, ranging from PSA to BGS to CGC. Nothing is so difficult that I would say I value them less just because they are slabbed. It's more the attitude that I should have to cover the seller's costs of slabbing, plus whatever whimsical amount they add because something was a 9 or 10.

As for one-touches, I post this often when people ask about "should I grade this?":

I'll throw out my usual pitch for unnecessary grading. I have literally every mid- to high-dollar card I own (Marvel, Star Wars, hockey, etc) in one-touches and team bags. They have survived two moves, being dropped, stepped on, sat on, and everything in-between. If by some miracle one gets cracked (which has yet to happen) I replace it for $3. Meanwhile, I dropped a PSA slab and it shattered the corner rendering it unsellable unless I send it back for reslabbing. Spoiler alert, I cracked it open and moved it to a one-touch and team bag.

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by glorbgorb

There's so many questions around all this.

I agree with everything you are saying here. Especially for pre epack days, like 07-08MM's. I mean what list do you even go off of...some unofficial list like nslists? And all the problems that come with aftermarkets and such. Im also very doubtful graders are going to be super knowledgeable about the sketch card scene going back to the old sketch forum days, knowledge of artists, and all that, to the extent of even some boardies on here are. It's more likely they are card graders for a company, going off of if the sketch stock is from an approved set on their list, going off if the artist sig is recognized from a list. I would be surprised if PSA is even grading unsigned sketches (I have no idea though, just guessing here).

I have a Charles Hall sketch on official non-AP 2007MM stock, which he did around the time, but a few years later like 2010. (you can even find info about this group of sketches on old sketch forums)- he isnt listed as an 07MM artist, but supposedly had the go-ahead to do them. I basically treat them like APs. My question is...not that I am planning on doing it....what happens if I submit that to PSA? Not on nslist but official stock and all that. Im not convinced they are deep-diving this much on these.

There have been people voicing questions about sketches in the hobby lately, with that one fiasco of the one ebay seller and aftermarkets among some other things. Im not sure grading companies are the answer to these issues of authenticity. Im not even sure 'authentic sketch' is even well-defined....is it just pack-pulled alone? Then APs and commissions wouldnt be authentic sketches. Some people are ok with: 1. is that an actual hand-drawn sketch, and 2. done by the artist advertised...and that's that. It's a work of art by the artist regardless how it came to be. Im skeptical there are that many examples of actually forged sketches (pretending to be another artist or fake sketch etc), I think the issues of 'authentic' are generally meant more for aftermarkets or not. If they want to call only pack-pulled sketches authentic, I can understand that, but like you said, good luck in figuring that out with 100% certainty particularly for older sets.

[finfangfan]

Don’t you have the same risk of buying an aftermarket that’s not slabbed on eBay? You guys are complaining about something that you already potentially encounter by buying any sketch card on eBay that you didn’t pull yourself. And I think you are kind of overstating the risks a bit.

Bottom line, the hobby is moving toward slabs. I think the grading companies bread and butter with millennial collectors (ie not us) is grading Pokémon and other similar tcg. I would say it’s like 100 to 1 vs nonsports slabs at the moment. So we often talk about the graying of the nonsports hobby… perhaps slabbing might be a bridge to the next generations? Millennials seem pretty open to buying slabs.

[glorbgorb]

Dyna, I won't quote your whole post, as I agree with all of it. However, it is 2024. You can't tell me that UD doesn't know what cards are packed out in boxes. So why are checklists incorrect? Where do/did CC and Beckett get theirs from? They have to be getting it from someone at UD. But we saw inaccuracies in sets as recent as Platinum (which I still believe is incorrect on Beckett's site!), and were not even talking about sketches. I just have a hard time believing that companies can't produce something reliable.

I say "companies" knowing full well that back in the peak of Rittenhouse days and their Marvel license, they would post on their site lists of artists and oftentimes scans of (some of) their cards. Rittenhouse numbered their boxes, so a very different environment from UD's mass produced things these days, but still. Maintaining a spreadsheet isn't that hard. And Rittenhouse, while we're on the topic, put your artist pages back up. They're been "under construction" for years now!

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by webjon

How PSA can tell if a black and white sketch has been colored or otherwise modified after market and by who?

The logical answer is they cant, outside scouring old forums/social media for scans of the sketch the artist themselves posted or the card company posted as glorb is talking about. And I simply dont believe that scouring is going on, plus many sketches were never posted in the first place (in an ideal world a company would keep a database of scans of every sketch pack inserted...if only).

So without all that...yea cant be sure, although it's probably not common for sketches to be modified…hopefully joe shmoe collector out there doesnt think they can improve the works from skilled artists in the field, imagine the disastrous results . It's not unheard of I guess for the artist him/herself to be sent an old B&W of theirs to add color, that's another story. It takes away from the authenticity of 'in its original state' but still to some, it's that 1. Is it a hand-drawn sketch, 2. Done by that artist, which is what matters, and it is. I dont really have a problem with the latter as long as it's all disclosed, when selling.

To glorb, I am just as confused by the checklists being off and different in modern sets. But again some of the big card companies we're talking about like UD...not entirely surprising.

[DynaEtch]

Originally Posted by finfangfan

Don’t you have the same risk of buying an aftermarket that’s not slabbed on eBay? You guys are complaining about something that you already potentially encounter by buying any sketch card on eBay that you didn’t pull yourself. And I think you are kind of overstating the risks a bit.

Bottom line, the hobby is moving toward slabs. I think the grading companies bread and butter with millennial collectors (ie not us) is grading Pokémon and other similar tcg. I would say it’s like 100 to 1 vs nonsports slabs at the moment. So we often talk about the graying of the nonsports hobby… perhaps slabbing might be a bridge to the next generations? Millennials seem pretty open to buying slabs.

Yep you do. I think with everything...best to do due diligence on your own as much as you can (what Im saying is a sketch being in a slab doesnt really assure me any more than usual that it might not be an aftermarket etc since Im doubting some some of the deep-digging referenced above is going on).

It is notable that ebay AG does not authenticate sketches (which is odd since CGC slabs them, and raw AG is done by CGC)- I actually wish they did authenticate sketches because of the seller protections that comes with that, but alas they dont. Probably for many of the reasons brought up in this thread.

Not to say to many there isnt a use for grading, if nothing else than protection and record keeping like you're saying. And it very well could be true that high grade sketches (in 9 or 10, if that even means something) do see a premium because the market values that. In that case who could blame someone for slabbing a sketch if they want to increase its value. I dont value sketches higher because of high grades, but Im not the market. If the market does, then there is logic in doing it especially if looking to sell. My anti-grading stance with sketches (actually with cards in general, not just sketches) is just relevant to my own personal collecting, in that I dont want to pay more for an extra aspect I dont value (and would just crack right out when it comes to sketches). You are right many younger collectors, especially in TCGs, it's all about grading....it's not for me, but could be for others.

[HiltonL]

Originally Posted by finfangfan

Bottom line, the hobby is moving toward slabs. I think the grading companies bread and butter with millennial collectors (ie not us) is grading Pokémon and other similar tcg. I would say it’s like 100 to 1 vs nonsports slabs at the moment. So we often talk about the graying of the nonsports hobby… perhaps slabbing might be a bridge to the next generations? Millennials seem pretty open to buying slabs.

I agree with this. Regardless of one's individual opinions, lay people want to be able to trust, and grading gives them the confidence to trust.

[glorbgorb]

Originally Posted by HiltonL

I agree with this. Regardless of one's individual opinions, lay people want to be able to trust, and grading gives them the confidence to trust.

Not disagreeing, but do lay people who collect sketches even know (or care) about aftermarkets or unofficial cards?

I think, generally speaking, those against it or want to see it called out are like me and have collected a while (since 2007 in my case).

[nabzy28]

Originally Posted by HiltonL

I agree with this. Regardless of one's individual opinions, lay people want to be able to trust, and grading gives them the confidence to trust.

This is EXACTLY why I'd have interest in it. If you've been in this for years (decades, even, like me) you are probably quite confident and proficient in your area(s) of interest. You cannot fathom how clueless the newbie crowd to all of this is. The questions I see in fanatics live chat, you tube breaker chat, etc. is stunning. These are the people most prone to being taken or ripped off and they are looking for things that make collecting safer and easier to understand. Whether you like it, or not, a slabbed card from a known grading company will absolutely carry more weight to them.

When I first started, I was overwhelmed by just new products at the time - a long time ago - trying to keep track of just football and some other minor interests. After years of learning, I am extremely comfortable dealing with just about any football and most all non-sports since the 90's, graded or not, any price range, etc. Even after all these years, I am absolutely NOT comfortable with most vintage in any sport. I can research particular cards of interest, but that would be my extent. I heavily lean on grading to determine a valuation range and authenticity for stuff like that, if I am looking to add to my collection.

My point is, the amount of information in the trading card world is just incredibly massive. At this point, I'd venture basically impossible for any one new collector to grasp without, at least, a couple years of intense participation in any one area of the market. Therefore, grading is a bit of an equalizer to help bridge the gap between getting completely screwed on a deal and having enough information to make an informed decision to purchase any item.

[HiltonL]

Originally Posted by glorbgorb

Not disagreeing, but do lay people who collect sketches even know (or care) about aftermarkets or unofficial cards?

I think, generally speaking, those against it or want to see it called out are like me and have collected a while (since 2007 in my case).

In my opinion, any activity where money is on the line, attracts people who are solely in it for the opportunity to make profit. When I used the term 'lay people' I am specifically excluding nerds and enthusiasts like us on Blowout who are so concerned with whether it's a repeat-a-sketch or whether it's an aftermarket etc.

Having an item inside a plastic coffin with a label tells whoever is looking at it, regardless of skill or depth of knowledge, that the item inside is what it says it is, and what condition it is in. Regardless of our deep knowledge of PSA slop and people putting things in blank slabs they bought from China and inserted a faked label or the extra-niche "PPSA" or "PSSA" etc squatter graders. In turn, somebody off the street (or more likely attending a local coin/card/comic show) can almost instantly know what it is, the quality of it, and be confident the thing is authentic.

Of course, as I wrote above, there are fakes and counterfeits always. Caveat Emptor. And there are innocent dupes willing to give their money for silver drinks and stocks that have little to no revenue. In America, you're free to waste your money however you like...

[finfangfan]

Just submitted this guy to “15-day” PSA…






Back lower left corner will hurt grade but not too many Neal Adams sketches out there.

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by nabzy28

Interesting. I couldn't care less about the grading part, but I may be VERY interested in getting them slabbed authentic.

I sent some PSCs (private sketch cards) to PSA through the autograph authentication bulk sub that raiderguy10 puts on here. Just got them back days ago. If the signature is on the front, they slab the image the correct way. I had a Juan Rosales sketch he signed on the back, and since they're authenticating the autograph, they put the sketch on the back side of the slab. But for $15, I'll take the lesson and submit smarter in future years.