2023 Veterans Committee Ballot Announced

[Skipscards]

This year is the “Contemporary Era Committee for managers, executives and umpires”

Here are the nominees:

Managers
Davey Johnson
Lou Pinella
Jim Leyland
Cito Gaston

NL President
Bill White

Umpires
Joe West
Ed Montague

GM
Hank Peters

I expect we could see three inducted. But two are more likely. On that list, I’d go:

1. Davey Johnson
2. Lou Pinella

I would not be surprised if either Umpire gets in.

[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Johnson over Leyland?!

[peterose4hof]

Would love to see "Sweet Lou" get in!

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by MiamiMarlinsFan

Johnson over Leyland?!

Yep. My only question was Pinella or Leyland. I went with Pinella because he’s 80 and Leyland is 78.

But Johnson is absolutely my #1. His average finish was 1.9 which is #2 All-Time among managers with 1,000+ wins (#1 is Charlie Manuel). His all time winning percentage (.562) is also the highest of any manager, not in the Hall of Fame and not named Jim Mutrie who managed in the 19th Century. (1,000+ games managed). His teams finished 1st or 2nd in 14 of his 17 seasons as manager (3rd twice and 5th once) and never finished last. And he won a pretty famous World Series.

[mchenrycards]

Originally Posted by peterose4hof

Would love to see "Sweet Lou" get in!

I don't believe any of these candidates deserve to be enshrined. They all belong in the hall of very good but none of these guys are hall worthy.

In this day and age when we are all complaining that guys like Baines, Kaat and Walker are being shown their place in Cooperstown, do we need to add any more "very good" performers to the ranks of the games greatest?

[Stifle]

That’s what the HOF needs, 2 more mid 80’s executives during the Collusion scandal. Execs steal hundreds of millions and are rewarded a opportunity to receive Hall of Fame entrance. To say that there isn’t a group that protects its own, they make it extremely obvious. Why not add the 1984 Olympic mastermind who created the mid 80’s scandal.

[rats60]

I think it will be Johnson and White.

[base set]

I don’t have any memories of Montague but everyone remembers Joe West. Therefore I think Montague will get a lot of votes.

Though I do have a favorite Joe West card:

[IMG] 2018 Topps Update Series - [Base] #US229 - Taylor Davis Courtesy of COMC.com[/IMG]

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

This year is the “Contemporary Era Committee for managers, executives and umpires”

Here are the nominees:

Managers
Davey Johnson
Lou Pinella
Jim Leyland
Cito Gaston

NL President
Bill White

Umpires
Joe West
Ed Montague

GM
Hank Peters

So here's the question....what are the benchmarks for managers? Umpires? Execs?

Because you can makes cases for/against all of these nominees...

Bill White kept the Giants in San Francisco.....how much does that matter?

Joe West umped more games than anyone in history, but was also widely reviled and never considered to be a top-tier umpire.

And for managers, what matters most....longevity....regular-season success...postseason success? Does a manager like Bobby Cox (even though he's not on this ballot) get lauded for winning 15 consecutive division titles, or dinged for only winning one World Series despite having 4-5 HOFers on his roster for most of his Braves career?

Leyland, Piniella, and Johnson each won a single World Series....Gaston won two....how much does that matter?

Lots to discuss....

[Stifle]

Originally Posted by rats60

I think it will be Johnson and White.

One more Exec who cr@pped on the “shield”, but he is in the group therefore open the door and create a bust.

[ScooterD]

I’m for Jim Leyland. Not against anyone else, but I’d like to see him in before the rest of those named.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by rats60

I think it will be Johnson and White.

I have a feeling you’re right. White is universally well liked and as a player he was a pretty good which never hurts. That being said, he really didn’t do anything as NL President.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by mfw13

So here's the question....what are the benchmarks for managers? Umpires? Execs?

Because you can makes cases for/against all of these nominees...

Bill White kept the Giants in San Francisco.....how much does that matter?

Joe West umped more games than anyone in history, but was also widely reviled and never considered to be a top-tier umpire.

And for managers, what matters most....longevity....regular-season success...postseason success? Does a manager like Bobby Cox (even though he's not on this ballot) get lauded for winning 15 consecutive division titles, or dinged for only winning one World Series despite having 4-5 HOFers on his roster for most of his Braves career?

Leyland, Piniella, and Johnson each won a single World Series....Gaston won two....how much does that matter?

Lots to discuss....

You are totally right. Lots to discuss and a good case can be made for each. Some of this will come down to who is on the committee. If Ripken Jr or Eddie are on the committee that could help Davey. If Griffey Jr or Edgar are on the committee that probably helps Pinella. Etc.

Winning a World Championship definitely matters. I think there’s only two or three HOF managers who didn’t and they all at least went to multiple World Series.

Cox is already in.

I expect West will eventually get in. While the fans may not have liked him, so what? He’s an umpire. We’re supposed to hate them and their stupid blindness. He clearly had the confidence of the league which chose him for multiple World Series and he did umpire more games than any umpire like you said.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by mchenrycards

I don't believe any of these candidates deserve to be enshrined. They all belong in the hall of very good but none of these guys are hall worthy.

In this day and age when we are all complaining that guys like Baines, Kaat and Walker are being shown their place in Cooperstown, do we need to add any more "very good" performers to the ranks of the games greatest?

They’re not being considered as players.

[jimfalbo21]

Gotta elect my boy Jimmy Leyland

[Stifle]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

I have a feeling you’re right. White is universally well liked and as a player he was a pretty good which never hurts. That being said, he really didn’t do anything as NL President.

He is universally liked because he followed the groups protocol - Lie, Hide and Deny. One could say - Obedience, Silence and Ignorance and the further a group member climbs.

When the top tier has lesser accountability than the bottom tier, the system falls apart. That is when spy ware is spent in billions, it’s about control. Separation is a control factor, hence those who write the rules create separation on character clauses. Executives are free from their actions.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by Stifle

He is universally liked because he followed the groups protocol - Lie, Hide and Deny. One could say - Obedience, Silence and Ignorance and the further a group member climbs.

When the top tier has lesser accountability than the bottom tier, the system falls apart. That is when spy ware is spent in billions, it’s about control. Separation is a control factor, hence those who write the rules create separation on character clauses. Executives are free from their actions.

I think this is an oversimplification. White had no power or influence as NL President. This wasn’t the 1950s.

He wanted to do a lot more in the office, even though he knew he was just a figurehead going in. He tried to do some things, but the owners just wanted to be able to say they had a black man in an executive position. White was the first black person to be president of the NL or AL. He worked best with Faye Vincent and thought it was shameless that he was fired and replace by Bud Selig, acting interim commissioner for life.

From his bio, and this is why I’d probably give him my 3rd vote:

“He soon realized that Selig intended to concentrate power in his own hands and abolish the position of league president. White retired in 1994. When the owners wanted to give him a farewell dinner, he told his successor, Leonard Coleman, “You can tell the owners I said the hell with them.”

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

That being said, he really didn’t do anything as NL President.

Aside from keeping the Giants in San Francisco.....

He was the main man working behind the scenes to convince the NL owners to veto Bob's Lurie's effort to sell them team to Vince Naimoli, who would have moved the team to Tampa Bay.

[awz50]

Would love to see Leyland get in

[Silent George]

I wrote about this, and obviously I disagree with everyone.

In order of how likely in my opinion:

1.White - First black league president, very good player, and nearly 90. It's their chance.

2.West - there are not a lot of umps in. Umps are judged by longevity and personality. West is in.

3.Piniella - 7 votes his first time, missed by 1 vote his last time, it his "turn" - he's 3rd instead of 1st because of lots of manager competition

4.Leyland - Well respected, lots of win, etc.

5.Gaston - 2 WS, 1st black manager to win WS, but not a long tenure. 1/2 wins of other guys, would have 2nd fewest wins in Hall

6.Johnson - has been on vets ballot several times, never making the vote threshold. He's just not well liked personally, and neither are the mid-80s Mets

7.Montague - they are only voting for one ump

8.Peters - The one dead guy on the ballot, barely belongs in the contemporary era, no need or want to elect him right now

[Mephisto]

This ballot is a joke! Joe West is on it but no Enrico Pallazzo?!


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[TheCardColony]

Originally Posted by peterose4hof

Would love to see "Sweet Lou" get in!

Likewise

[cfern023]

Leyland needs to get in, what he did with three franchises (Pirate, Marlins and Tigers) was a great accomplishment.


I'd make Joe West wait, he made himself the center of attention many nights. As an ump, I can't reward that. If there was a vet ballot equivalent of "Not a first ballot", I'd go that route.

I don't think I know enough about Gatson, Johnson and Pinella to say otherwise, but all did good things. Gatson as a minority manager, Pinella with the Mariners, and Johnson w the 86 Mets.

[rms13]

All four managers are HOF. Gaston is the only one with 2 WS but also the only one with no Manager of the Year awards. Leyland winning percentage is by far the worst and and Johnson's is by far the best. But Leyland also has the most Manager of the Year. I was watching a lot of baseball when these four managed and I would gladly take any of them to manage my team except maybe Piniella because I'm a Red Sox fan and I hate him but I definitely respect him.

[caster513]

West should get in, 1976-2021 with 5,460 games, most ever. I get the hate on him, but man he's been around...