Question about the current PSA standards

[CardGoonies]

Originally Posted by FSUMagic420

Your naiveness of thinking the feds are ever going to touch the card world is amazing or you just never pay attention to what goes on in the government for you to seriously believe that they are touching this stuff. The feds do not care or will ever care about sports cards. Im not going to keep arguing with you since you seem to think you know more than someone who has actually worked with the government.

You offered conjecture and opinion. I offered examples and links directly refuting your BS notions.

To sum this up....

Your position: The Gov won't bother with billion dollar card industry because it's trivial.

My position: Evidence shows that they screw around with trivial regulations on things much smaller than the card industry all the time. I then presented examples.

Your rebuttal: Repeat yourself and ignore facts presented.

^ Based on the above circular, lazy logic you've married yourself to, I 100% believe you when you say you worked with the government. Hope you find your high tonight since I brought you down, government maven "FSUMagic420" guy. Pffffft!

[FSUMagic420]

Originally Posted by CardGoonies

You offered conjecture and opinion. I offered examples and links directly refuting your BS notions.

To sum this up....

Your position: The Gov won't bother with billion dollar card industry because it's trivial.

My position: Evidence shows that they screw around with trivial regulations on things much smaller than the card industry all the time. I then presented examples.

Your rebuttal: Repeat yourself and ignore facts presented.

^ Based on the above circular, lazy logic you've married yourself to, I 100% believe you when you say you worked with the government. Hope you find your high tonight since I brought you down, government maven "FSUMagic420" guy. Pffffft!

Lol wow. So you googled a link and now you think you know everything. All from the comfort of your own home. You were able to figure out exactly how the government works and you never had to work as a staffer or work for the state or go work in DC or do anything but just use google. Someone needs to give you a government contract asap since your a real genius.

Yeah I think this convo is over. Nothing is worse than knowitalls who think they know how the whole world works just because they can type words in google and think that is more valuable than life experience.

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by FSUMagic420

Lol wow. So you googled a link and now you think you know everything. All from the comfort of your own home. You were able to figure out exactly how the government works and you never had to work as a staffer or work for the state or go work in DC or do anything but just use google. Someone needs to give you a government contract asap since your a real genius.

Yeah I think this convo is over. Nothing is worse than knowitalls who think they know how the whole world works just because they can type words in google and think that is more valuable than life experience.

Are you describing yourself? Can't wait until you are blocked here. I give you about another week. Did you happen to have some Jerry Rice PSA 11's?

[FSUMagic420]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

Are you describing yourself? Can't wait until you are blocked here. I give you about another week. Did you happen to have some Jerry Rice PSA 11's?

This site amazes me at how low some of the IQ is on here. And im not even that smart. How do people like yourself function in the real world? Or do you just never leave your house?

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by FSUMagic420

This site amazes me at how low some of the IQ is on here. And im not even that smart. How do people like yourself function in the real world? Or do you just never leave your house?

That is correct.

[FSUMagic420]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

That is correct.

Wow. You know how to bold a post by clicking the B button. Congratulations. Too bad you cant read past a kindergarden level.

[49erRCCollector]

Originally Posted by FSUMagic420

Wow. You know how to bold a post by clicking the B button. Congratulations. Too bad you cant read past a kindergarden level.

Hey, whoa. I know for a fact he can read at at least a 4th grade level.

Let's keep it friendly here.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by CardGoonies

No. There's nothing else worth reading after you say this because it's so grossly off base and made up. Blanket statements like this are absurd. There are more BGS 9.5s out there that would PSA 9 then there are that would PSA 10.

I was referring to the grade.Meaning BGS 9.5 is a gem mint grade and a PSA 10 is a gem mint grade.NOT what was the correct grade.Or the better card.And the fact a lot of guys just look at the number and not the grade.But you feel free to ignore my posts ill somehow find a way to live it.

[FSUMagic420]

Originally Posted by 49erRCCollector

Hey, whoa. I know for a fact he can read at at least a 4th grade level.

Let's keep it friendly here.

Lol yeah trust me I have no need to engage any further with these people when they dont know how to talk to a human being properly.

In terms of the topic at hand, PSA has always graded the same way forever. One thing about PSA is that they hire and fire a buttload of people and the newbies dont always know how the standards work hence why grading can be wonky. It sucks to crack and resub but ira the only way to get the correct grades.

[Cardsandcoffee]

Originally Posted by CardGoonies

I run into this debate in my business. Where people want to nitpick home thester projectors or subwoofers where, in a practical use scenario, their eyes can't tell a difference.... In a lab with specific testing, however, there can be tests that show quality differences on still image patterns, graphs, measurements, etc.... and guys will buy the much more expensive one that does well in the lab most of the time by far.

Interesting analogy. I think I'm more definitely in the first camp, where practicality rules the roost. I love attention to detail but at a certain point, I feel like becoming too focused on the unseen minutiae can be trivial, if it starts deviating from common sense. Good food for thought though!

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by FSUMagic420

Wow. You know how to bold a post by clicking the B button. Congratulations. Too bad you cant read past a kindergarden level.

At least spell kindergarten correct if you are insulting someone's reading ability.

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by 49erRCCollector

Hey, whoa. I know for a fact he can read at at least a 4th grade level.

Let's keep it friendly here.

I would say a solid 6th grade level, but I don't want to appear to be cocky in my capabilities.

[CardGoonies]

Originally Posted by Gary

I was referring to the grade.Meaning BGS 9.5 is a gem mint grade and a PSA 10 is a gem mint grade.NOT what was the correct grade.Or the better card.And the fact a lot of guys just look at the number and not the grade.But you feel free to ignore my posts ill somehow find a way to live it.

I wouldn't just ignore your posts as a whole and I don't put people on ignore

I see what you were getting at, but I think there's a huge misconception there with terminology. BGS did that on purpose with the nomanclature of their grades as a marketing gimmick as a means to try and differentiate. Personally, I think it did more to add confusion to the hobby than it did to innovate it.

BGS basically just took a competitors grade terminology - a competitor that was first to market and set a general standard for the term + a number grade - and knocked the words down on their scale to create public perception that gem mint was inferior and that a better grade was out there. They then added another term they came up with to try and demean or differentiate PSA's 10 from BGS 10. It's just like if Burgerking started calling their "Supersized" combo meal the "Ultra Turbo Supersize" and then renamed their large "Supersize" just to make McDonalds fries seem less-than. But the fries are actually more or less quite similar in size & quality.

- More famously: My amp goes up to 11, so it's louder than your 10.

The verbiage in this sense is internal jargon that really doesn't mean anything by some sort of universal standard and was a marketing ploy, pop control mechanic, and general chase grade.... Unless you used to work at BGS and your name is Joe Clemons. Then, you get entire subs back black labeled.

When they started grading, BGS needed to make people excited they were starting to grade and switch from PSA and that was what they came up with. .5 grades and different names. Oh, and a much better slab/label.

[CardGoonies]

To circle back on topic...

In Nat's own words recently "PSA is being more consistant with grading to their published standards". I don't think that's a reasonable thing to change to after, what (?), 28 years of previous ownership interpreting/grading card standards a certain way. PSA had nealry 30 years of consistancy until they were aquired.

I think this is more a reinterpretation of what the published standards mean - but if they came out and said that it would diminish or at least make people question alllllll of the 10s they've previously graded. I would have prefered a PSA 10+ grade (or a foil red slab label) to denote perfect front/back centering or something like that than to just start drilling down on things they previously felt were within PSA 10 tollerances.

I understand trying to make a PSA 10 more prestigious, but there are better way to do that, IMO, than to just crackdown. Maybe a slower, more gradual approach would have been better than to just flip a switch and hammer millions of cards durring the pandemic.

[CardGoonies]

Originally Posted by FSUMagic420

Lol wow. So you googled a link and now you think you know everything. All from the comfort of your own home. You were able to figure out exactly how the government works and you never had to work as a staffer or work for the state or go work in DC or do anything but just use google. Someone needs to give you a government contract asap since your a real genius.

Yeah I think this convo is over. Nothing is worse than knowitalls who think they know how the whole world works just because they can type words in google and think that is more valuable than life experience.

Is it smart for you to invent an entire backstory for me because I disagree with you? Delusion much?

- How dare I find and present facts to back my position up. The nerve I must have to read and study things instead of just blindly believe you. Oh, and then I presented and linked them for you. How dare I!

^ You DEFINITELY have government experience with that attitude. "No no no. Don't read for yourself. Let ME tell you how it is". You'll be better off to take that song and go play it for idiots who will listen to you.

- This is where I insert a backstory for you where you were recently an intern somewhere in the Gov. for a semester of college -

Fun fact: I've done plenty of work in DC and do so every year. I've done plenty of work for governmental agencies. Have done plenty of work for government officials, federal judges, etc.

I also have life long friends who have worked in government for years at various levels. Some elected, some appointed. My brother in law is also a history professor and we discuss this stuff all the time.

This idea you have that the US Government can't be bothered with billion dollar a year industries - like trading cards/collectibles - and how they function as massive businesses to the consumer is one of the most head-in-ass things I've ever read on a forum or anywhere else, for that matter.

[Cardsandcoffee]

Originally Posted by CardGoonies

To circle back on topic...

In Nat's own words recently "PSA is being more consistant with grading to their published standards". I don't think that's a reasonable thing to change to after, what (?), 28 years of previous ownership interpreting/grading card standards a certain way. PSA had nealry 30 years of consistancy until they were aquired.

I think this is more a reinterpretation of what the published standards mean - but if they came out and said that it would diminish or at least make people question alllllll of the 10s they've previously graded. I would have prefered a PSA 10+ grade (or a foil red slab label) to denote perfect front/back centering or something like that than to just start drilling down on things they previously felt were within PSA 10 tollerances.

I understand trying to make a PSA 10 more prestigious, but there are better way to do that, IMO, than to just crackdown. Maybe a slower, more gradual approach would have been better than to just flip a switch and hammer millions of cards durring the pandemic.

Agreed. It’s a little disingenuous to build your business around assessing the card condition, and then change the standard (or uphold… at this point it’s the same end result) to be pushing out 6’s and 7’s that look better than older, previous 8’s and 9’s. Instead of improving the consistency of the product, it basically makes the individual question the grade of everything, which PSA was originally trying to resolve.

[discodanman45]

Originally Posted by Cardsandcoffee

Agreed. It’s a little disingenuous to build your business around assessing the card condition, and then change the standard (or uphold… at this point it’s the same end result) to be pushing out 6’s and 7’s that look better than older, previous 8’s and 9’s. Instead of improving the consistency of the product, it basically makes the individual question the grade of everything, which PSA was originally trying to resolve.

The problem is not changing the standards. The standards have always been the same. The problem is the application of the standards, which will always be applied differently. In the past there were a handful of graders at PSA, now there well over 100. Each person applies the standards differently and even part of the process these days might be automated with machines. With having so many graders you will find one's that will over-grade cards, under-grade cards, or grade cards perfectly.

Until there is good machine learning, which is still in its infancy and still isn't proven it can do better than a human, we need to deal with this subjective grading as best we can. Like it or not, it is your job as a buyer to look at a slab and question every grade. If I see a PSA 8, I am pretty sure it is between a 7 and 9. It is my job to evaluate it and pay accordingly.

The problem with most buyers that have no grading experience is that they think PSA and every grading company is better than they actually are. It is very beneficial to grade cards with PSA and other grading companies yourself, before you buy slabs without this experience.

[CardGoonies]

Originally Posted by Cardsandcoffee

Agreed. It’s a little disingenuous to build your business around assessing the card condition, and then change the standard (or uphold… at this point it’s the same end result) to be pushing out 6’s and 7’s that look better than older, previous 8’s and 9’s. Instead of improving the consistency of the product, it basically makes the individual question the grade of everything, which PSA was originally trying to resolve.

And yet, through it all I still see them as the premium grading option. I am fine with their published standards. Just the lack of communication on these stricter tolerances is a ball busting. Again, though, PSA NEEDS volume. They all do. So the Wizard if Oz stuff about how they actually grade and the tools used only helps them because then people can't replicate while prescreening at home.

I love card grading, the concepts behind it, and find slabbed cards to be the only type of thing that interests me in the hobby. These types of conversations are worthwhile and fascinating to get different people's opinions on.

I would LOVE to see a red foil outline on PSA 10 labels instead of the standard flat red. It would make them pop and lossibly add in another layer of security.

To expand on that, it would be awesome to see them do something special loke that on 50/50 front and back centered 10s, for example. It isn't a subgrade, but perhaps a really eye catching notation.

This kind of thing would encourage the resending in of a TON of cards for a reholder charge. Things like this to generate volume... through evolutionary changes... would be better than stricter grading behind closed doors.

[Cardsandcoffee]

Agreed. I love these kinds of conversations because they do explore more of the concepts and ideas behind the hobby. Grading in particular is heavy because like it or not, there’s huge money behind the concept, and every number on the slab matters.

PSA has begun the push for the reholder with their latest promotion. However I do wish they would find a way to also regrade the cards coming in, and if they are not up to par with their “latest” standard adherence, then find a way to compensate the owner. Equalization across the board. But… that would be fanciful thinking since so many older grades now do not meet their “new” expectations and some of them are absolutely massive, big dollar ones at that. The frustration at seeing such a disparity in quality and the ensuing price difference is getting worse. It works out when buying cards for sure, but when trying to sub older cards and getting two grade penalties vs historical figures is not fun, when considering the money involved.

[MJGOAT23]

Pretty sure a few years back, or it might even be 5+ years ago now the Certs starting in 0 were considered better because they graded harder "back in the day." Now, people feel the opposite. It's like it started strictly, got lax, and now tightened back up but it's not stricter than it ever was.

I dont grade 1000's of cards becasue I try to be selective but I've graded 100's and 100's and nearly every single card and grade I can look at it and say OK, that's what they saw or yes, that's what I expected. If and when I find one I can't figure out or think was harshly graded, I try to snag it and see how it does on a cross.

[Cardsandcoffee]

Originally Posted by MJGOAT23

Pretty sure a few years back, or it might even be 5+ years ago now the Certs starting in 0 were considered better because they graded harder "back in the day." Now, people feel the opposite. It's like it started strictly, got lax, and now tightened back up but it's not stricter than it ever was.

I dont grade 1000's of cards becasue I try to be selective but I've graded 100's and 100's and nearly every single card and grade I can look at it and say OK, that's what they saw or yes, that's what I expected. If and when I find one I can't figure out or think was harshly graded, I try to snag it and see how it does on a cross.

Yup I too have noticed these waves in how stringent they graded. We are definitely in a hard period. Anecdotally I feel like every PSA reveal I’ve seen or every grade posting just talks about how they got destroyed on their non-ultra modern subs.

[inaka]

Here's my take, we made PSA change their grading standards.

Back then, old PSA graded cards with a "0" cert for example might GEM MINT 10, and there are obvious flaws in them by today's standards. Hell, in the 1980s when I started collecting an autograph on a card ruined the card, and people didn't care about pristine perfect centering. Now they do.

So if PSA didn't change, and kept the "old" grading standards, people would flip out viewing PSA 10s that had a stain on the back. (Yes, that card just sold for $120k and there's a stain on the back above the word "3-run" but hey, it's a PSA 10!) /s

So it was inevitable that PSA would change their grading standards because the customer demands have also changed.

My biggest complaint with PSA (and there are many) is the grading inconsistency. My vintage batch got HAMMERED in grading, and then I've cracked a PSA 7, and resubmitted right back to PSA and got a PSA 10. I've done this with multiple PSA 8's too. It's a scam, and they're laughing all the way to the bank and they have no financial incentive to change. So I don't mind tougher grading standards if they were far far more consistent. SGC to me is a much more consistent grading company, but they are hurt with resale value since the public wants PSA-slabbed cards, and so the cycle continues...

[Cards and 401K]

Totally agree, I read and talk to so many in the hobby who crack and send back to PSA the "same" card and it usually comes back a Gem Mint or 1 to 2 grades higher? That tells me they have a lot of weak links in the grading process, like I said before not sending any cards in for grading until 2024 unless I see consistency , and I have graded over a 1,000 cards in the last 4 years...

[CardGoonies]

Originally Posted by Cards and 401K

Totally agree, I read and talk to so many in the hobby who crack and send back to PSA the "same" card and it usually comes back a Gem Mint or 1 to 2 grades higher? That tells me they have a lot of weak links in the grading process, like I said before not sending any cards in for grading until 2024 unless I see consistency , and I have graded over a 1,000 cards in the last 4 years...

Doing this with a bunch of cards. One is a rare MJ that got a PSA 5. 2 friends own LCS near me and they can't find any flaws. Nitpicking a possible microscopic print dot would leave me with a 9. Even under an electronic microscope on an 86" monitor we cannot find any issues with corners, edges, centering (falls within 60/40 easily), or surface. Just a microscopic print dot hiding in a blue pixel within the purple background.... And it yielded a 5?! I think someone wrote a 9 and it looked like a 5 on their sheet.

It has already been cracked. No wrinkles or creases. Literally zero damage and it was a 5! Immediately cracked that thing out to review and reeend.

[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

I just got the grader of death....alll new chrome cards and like 50/50 10 or 9 or lower. Seems all the lesser players graded higher, while higher caliber players were 9s or lower. Brutal