Question about the current PSA standards

[Cardsandcoffee]

How do people feel about the current standards they are employing?

Anecdotally, it does seem like PSA is being very strict, fairly or not, about their current grading standards, particularly with older, non-chrome, cards. I have used this to my advantage by picking up some general collection and grail cards, that have been recently graded by PSA (unfortunately for the seller but fortunately for me). Otherwise I probably would not have be able to afford to grab some of these cards, in as nice of condition. Now, I’m not a grader nor do I think I’m one… but I generally think I’m pretty knowledgeable about what card condition constitutes what grade and it does feel they are grading many cards a level or two below what’s generally considered their historical level. Several of my recent pick ups look better than many 9’s I’ve seen, in older slabs.

I am fully aware of the adage “buy the card, not the holder” but it does become trickier when you have to explain why your 6 or 7 is better looking than many older 8’s. Grading was meant to reduce ambiguity but these waves of strict grading vs more lax grading is causing confusion.

Just a thought that I like to hear others thoughts on.

[discodanman45]

I love the standards. I have bought many great vintage cards that were nicer than my older slabs in the same grade or higher. I then trade or sell the older slabs and add more cards to my collection at great prices.

[FSUMagic420]

Originally Posted by Cardsandcoffee

How do people feel about the current standards they are employing?

Anecdotally, it does seem like PSA is being very strict, fairly or not, about their current grading standards, particularly with older, non-chrome, cards. I have used this to my advantage by picking up some general collection and grail cards, that have been recently graded by PSA (unfortunately for the seller but fortunately for me). Otherwise I probably would not have be able to afford to grab some of these cards, in as nice of condition. Now, I’m not a grader nor do I think I’m one… but I generally think I’m pretty knowledgeable about what card condition constitutes what grade and it does feel they are grading many cards a level or two below what’s generally considered their historical level. Several of my recent pick ups look better than many 9’s I’ve seen, in older slabs.

I am fully aware of the adage “buy the card, not the holder” but it does become trickier when you have to explain why your 6 or 7 is better looking than many older 8’s. Grading was meant to reduce ambiguity but these waves of strict grading vs more lax grading is causing confusion.

Just a thought that I like to hear others thoughts on.

There is no real standards at PSA. There is a list of suggestions on how to grade and its all dependent on the grader you get, hence why when you get back a bunch of 9s, if you crack them and resub them then you will get mostly 10s.

[CardGoonies]

Originally Posted by Cardsandcoffee

How do people feel about the current standards they are employing?

Anecdotally, it does seem like PSA is being very strict, fairly or not, about their current grading standards, particularly with older, non-chrome, cards. I have used this to my advantage by picking up some general collection and grail cards, that have been recently graded by PSA (unfortunately for the seller but fortunately for me). Otherwise I probably would not have be able to afford to grab some of these cards, in as nice of condition. Now, I’m not a grader nor do I think I’m one… but I generally think I’m pretty knowledgeable about what card condition constitutes what grade and it does feel they are grading many cards a level or two below what’s generally considered their historical level. Several of my recent pick ups look better than many 9’s I’ve seen, in older slabs.

I am fully aware of the adage “buy the card, not the holder” but it does become trickier when you have to explain why your 6 or 7 is better looking than many older 8’s. Grading was meant to reduce ambiguity but these waves of strict grading vs more lax grading is causing confusion.

Just a thought that I like to hear others thoughts on.

PSA is the only grading company we use. It's still the best option. That being said...

They are asking for a class action lawsuit at some point. Practically begging for it... OR the Gov Regulation Hammer to swing down on them.

PSA has had long standing, published standards. They have obviously deviated from how they have graded in the past with new ownership. This is not going to bode well if any kind of court or higher authority subpoenas previous graders, current ones, and upper management causing testimonies & interoffice correspondance to come out: Emails, power points on grading, sticky notes, TPS Reports, etc.

There's no question they have been instructed to grade harder, yet they have left the public to believe the same (several decades old) published standards are in place causing millions of cards to be sent in with 1 expectation and then delivering another. This is dubious.

Interesting to see how this would all hold up (or fold) under public scrutiny. Also, we have 15 orders there now and another 15 prepped to ship

[FSUMagic420]

Originally Posted by CardGoonies

PSA is the only grading company we use. It's still the best option. That being said...

They are asking for a class action lawsuit at some point. Practically begging for it... OR the Gov Regulation Hammer to swing down on them.

PSA has had long standing, published standards. They have obviously deviated from how they have graded in the past with new ownership. This is not going to bode well if any kind of court or higher authority subpoenas previous graders, current ones, and upper management causing testimonies & interoffice correspondance to come out: Emails, power points on grading, sticky notes, TPS Reports, etc.

There's no question they have been instructed to grade harder, yet they have left the public to believe the same (several decades old) published standards are in place causing millions of cards to be sent in with 1 expectation and then delivering another. This is dubious.

Interesting to see how this would all hold up (or fold) under public scrutiny. Also, we have 15 orders there now and another 15 prepped to ship

Lol government regulation, we cant even hold the social media companies accountable that are way more dangerous than a card grading company. What makes you think the government cares?

If you want the right grades with PSA your sadly stuck with cracking and regrading. There isnt much interest in legal battles with the card world.

[CardGoonies]

Originally Posted by FSUMagic420

Lol government regulation, we cant even hold the social media companies accountable that are way more dangerous than a card grading company. What makes you think the government cares?

If you want the right grades with PSA your sadly stuck with cracking and regrading. There isnt much interest in legal battles with the card world.

The more popular something becomes and the more money that gets throw into it the GOVs eyes open. Not saying that's good or bad, but eventually someone will see the money flowing through the card industry and see the lottery/gambling aspect, the grading/securities aspect, that manufacturers are not being held to any sort of standard while offering "odds" omn packs, boxes, etc etc.

Either that or some Senator or Congressman who's into cards... or their kids... will get some funky grades back and the ball will start rolling.

[FSUMagic420]

Originally Posted by CardGoonies

The more popular something becomes and the more money that gets throw into it the GOVs eyes open. Not saying that's good or bad, but eventually someone will see the money flowing through the card industry and see the lottery/gambling aspect, the grading/securities aspect, that manufacturers are not being held to any sort of standard while offering "odds" omn packs, boxes, etc etc.

Either that or some Senator or Congressman who's into cards... or their kids... will get some funky grades back and the ball will start rolling.

Lol ya im sure polliticians will grade cards when they can just buy whatever they want. Those people think trading cards are a joke. They could care less of what injustices go on in the industry when they have much different priorities.

[oddstuff]

Originally Posted by Cardsandcoffee

How do people feel about the current standards they are employing?

Anecdotally, it does seem like PSA is being very strict, fairly or not, about their current grading standards, particularly with older, non-chrome, cards. I have used this to my advantage by picking up some general collection and grail cards, that have been recently graded by PSA (unfortunately for the seller but fortunately for me). Otherwise I probably would not have be able to afford to grab some of these cards, in as nice of condition. Now, I’m not a grader nor do I think I’m one… but I generally think I’m pretty knowledgeable about what card condition constitutes what grade and it does feel they are grading many cards a level or two below what’s generally considered their historical level. Several of my recent pick ups look better than many 9’s I’ve seen, in older slabs.

I am fully aware of the adage “buy the card, not the holder” but it does become trickier when you have to explain why your 6 or 7 is better looking than many older 8’s. Grading was meant to reduce ambiguity but these waves of strict grading vs more lax grading is causing confusion.

Just a thought that I like to hear others thoughts on.

Do those older slabs begin with a 0, 1, 2 or 3? I've found any slabs beginning with those numbers and are older cards typically were OVERgraded...or you can also say slabs starting with a 4 or higher faced a higher amount of scrutiny than the older graded cards. I notice "tighter standards" in 2018...more in line with the standards listed on their website.

[Cardsandcoffee]

Originally Posted by oddstuff

Do those older slabs begin with a 0, 1, 2 or 3? I've found any slabs beginning with those numbers and are older cards typically were OVERgraded...or you can also say slabs starting with a 4 or higher faced a higher amount of scrutiny than the older graded cards. I notice "tighter standards" in 2018...more in line with the standards listed on their website.

Indeed the older numbered slabs are way more lenient. And the more recent vintages are generally tighter in standards… but the last 8 months or so have been really strict. I picked up a VERY nice mid grade ‘86 Fleer Jordan and ‘86 Topps Rice that were very recently graded, that would’ve easily been 2 grades higher in the past. I’m pretty diligent about scoping out the surfaces so I feel confident that some edge chipping was the only issue, particularly with the Jordan. Dead on LR with a measured 55/45 top bottom centering with very strong, sharp corners, no whiting. Just a very clean card with beautiful registration and gloss.

I bring this all up because I received an unsolicited offer for it while showing it to a friend and his associate, and had a conversation about it, when I was lowballed. He showed me 2 8’s and a 9, all of which had fat printers dots or “fish eyes” on the surface, and worst centering. Jordan’s in particular are known to have dots by Jordan’s head… most distracting! But the other guy’s cards will get better comps because of their numerical grade…

[CardGoonies]

Originally Posted by FSUMagic420

Lol ya im sure polliticians will grade cards when they can just buy whatever they want. Those people think trading cards are a joke. They could care less of what injustices go on in the industry when they have much different priorities.

Ohhhh, I think we can find an incredible list of absurdities that the US Gov regulates and tries to keep an eye on. If there's money in it there will be eyes on it eventually.

[FSUMagic420]

Originally Posted by CardGoonies

Ohhhh, I think we can find an incredible list of absurdities that the US Gov regulates and tries to keep an eye on. If there's money in it there will be eyes on it eventually.

Not really how the government works. They have plenty of opportunities as it is and are not really interested in the card market. They haven't even touched the whole lootbox industry and are very far off from bothering with it. This isnt Europe where they actually give a damn about gambling and mental health issues.

We are stuck with cracking and resub for the time being, which while pretty annoying, is not the worse thing on the planet.

[CardGoonies]

Originally Posted by FSUMagic420

Not really how the government works. They have plenty of opportunities as it is and are not really interested in the card market. They haven't even touched the whole lootbox industry and are very far off from bothering with it. This isnt Europe where they actually give a damn about gambling and mental health issues.

We are stuck with cracking and resub for the time being, which while pretty annoying, is not the worse thing on the planet.

It's exactly how the government works. When large industry and organizations are behind something the government takes notice. They spent years and millions of dollars on steroids in baseball and concussions in football. These people love to piss away time & money grandstanding in public. You know... "for the people". lol

Now that MLB, NFL, & NBA & their respective players associations are going to be involved there is massive money in the card industry. As this industry expands eyes will be on it and issues will arrise. One of which COULD be grading companies and how they operate.

Another goofy bill is S. 1629....

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...bill/1629/text

^ Regulates microtransactions in video games and lootboxes in videogames.

This kind of regulatory work and bills are EVERYWHERE and in all sorts of industry & hobbies. My guess with S. 1629 is some congressman blew a gasket when his kid ran up a $1,500 credit card bill in a cellphone game.

[49erRCCollector]

there are published standards but how those are put into practical application is going to vary from card to card (depending on manufacturing process: chrome, paper, acetate, etc.) and grader-to-grader (depending on how they interpret what they see.

I was always very good at comics grading - cards can be a little more difficult.

[FSUMagic420]

Originally Posted by CardGoonies

It's exactly how the government works. When large industry and organizations are behind something the government takes notice. They spent years and millions of dollars on steroids in baseball and concussions in football. These people love to piss away time & money grandstanding in public. You know... "for the people". lol

Now that MLB, NFL, & NBA & their respective players associations are going to be involved there is massive money in the card industry. As this industry expands eyes will be on it and issues will arrise. One of which COULD be grading companies and how they operate.

Another goofy bill is S. 1629....

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...bill/1629/text

^ Regulates microtransactions in video games and lootboxes in videogames.

This kind of regulatory work and bills are EVERYWHERE and in all sorts of industry & hobbies. My guess with S. 1629 is some congressman blew a gasket when his kid ran up a $1,500 credit card bill in a cellphone game.

Lol its amazing how you think that a bill being worked on means anything. All sorts of stuff gets written into a bill, getting enough of congress to vote on it is a completely different story. There are 1000s of bills that dont even reach the house floor every other week and this is not any different.

Sorry but what your saying is wishful thinking. I get that PSA is a pain in the arse to deal with and that regrading is annoying, but thats where we are at. The government is not remotely interested in the card grading industry since its a joke to them. They cant even regular the food we eat, the meds we take, the water supply or environmental pollution correctly, yet you really think they care that you have to pay another 15 bucks to grade your card lol? Like really?

[Cardsandcoffee]

Originally Posted by CardGoonies

PSA is the only grading company we use. It's still the best option. That being said...

There's no question they have been instructed to grade harder, yet they have left the public to believe the same (several decades old) published standards are in place causing millions of cards to be sent in with 1 expectation and then delivering another. This is dubious.

Interesting to see how this would all hold up (or fold) under public scrutiny. Also, we have 15 orders there now and another 15 prepped to ship

To a certain degree, for some of these grades, it seems like they are “missing the forest for the trees”. It just seems like they have been instructed so hard to grade more stringently, and to look for certain things, PSA is missing out on other things and not seeing the overall presentation. It’s why certain vintage cards of a lesser grade will be worth more than other higher grades. Kinda asinine when one steps back and thinks about it.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by oddstuff

Do those older slabs begin with a 0, 1, 2 or 3? I've found any slabs beginning with those numbers and are older cards typically were OVERgraded...or you can also say slabs starting with a 4 or higher faced a higher amount of scrutiny than the older graded cards. I notice "tighter standards" in 2018...more in line with the standards listed on their website.

I noticed tighter standards earlier than that. I started grading with PSA in 2016-17 and I got 6s on cards that were as nice as 8s. The bottom line is that PSA has different people grading different cards and there is no consistency. I see cards graded in the 90s that are properly graded and others that are over graded by 2 grades. I just saw an order come back and 4 of the 5 cards were over graded by a grade.

You just have to look at the card and grade it yourself. Then look at the number on the holder. If the number on the holder is higher, don't buy the card. The serial number is really irrelevant.

[CardGoonies]

Originally Posted by FSUMagic420

Lol its amazing how you think that a bill being worked on means anything. All sorts of stuff gets written into a bill, getting enough of congress to vote on it is a completely different story. There are 1000s of bills that dont even reach the house floor every other week and this is not any different.

Sorry but what your saying is wishful thinking. I get that PSA is a pain in the arse to deal with and that regrading is annoying, but thats where we are at. The government is not remotely interested in the card grading industry since its a joke to them. They cant even regular the food we eat, the meds we take, the water supply or environmental pollution correctly, yet you really think they care that you have to pay another 15 bucks to grade your card lol? Like really?

You're adorable.

You realize that before bills get passed they GET WORKED ON, right?

City, State, & Federal governments write laws and regulations over all sorts of little things all the time. Not everything they do is about your weed, meds, food, or pollution. This idea that big brother is out there only hammering away at the critical parts of life is laughable and completely false.

- The US government made it a federal law that companies cannot sell any wine with the name "Zombie"as the brand name. YES, that's a federal law.

Why on Earth you don't think that they would come in and regulate the sports card, grading, selling, etc. markets where billions of dollars change hands every year is beyond me. Pull your head out of the sand (or wherever you've got it stuck... a cloud, maybe?) and look around. That being said, I am not in favor of a lot of Fed regulations.... but what's going on in the sports card industry is a ton of Wizad of Oz stuff behind the curtains and I would love to see people called to testify over it.

[anusinha]

Yeah, its pretty obvious that PSA has gotten much stricter with the grades they hand out especially on the 90s stuff. I guess now that they are grading 12-13 million cards a year, they dont want to add 10 mill PSA 10s to the pop every year.

[CardGoonies]

Originally Posted by Cardsandcoffee

To a certain degree, for some of these grades, it seems like they are “missing the forest for the trees”. It just seems like they have been instructed so hard to grade more stringently, and to look for certain things, PSA is missing out on other things and not seeing the overall presentation. It’s why certain vintage cards of a lesser grade will be worth more than other higher grades. Kinda asinine when one steps back and thinks about it.

I think that there are certain things they look for that the naked eye could never ever see. Especially damage on vintage cards. I saw a youtube video where SGC puts some cards into a forensic document scanner to detect damage that led lighting and mag lamps can't. It was fascinating. The eye appeal of the card was good, but the actual condition of the thing was brutal in the document scanner.

The video below is the clip. The guy is a cheeseball, but the scanner and what they show is interesting!

https://youtu.be/_YNOs6Xu80w?t=982

BTW, not into SGC at all, but I think transparancy in the grading process is deserved by the clients of PSA, BGS, SGC, etc.... We don't get that, though. Probably because then people would get their own tools and only send in 10s. Most of these company's money has to be made in the volume of bad cards sent in.

[Cardsandcoffee]

Originally Posted by rats60

I noticed tighter standards earlier than that. I started grading with PSA in 2016-17 and I got 6s on cards that were as nice as 8s. The bottom line is that PSA has different people grading different cards and there is no consistency. I see cards graded in the 90s that are properly graded and others that are over graded by 2 grades. I just saw an order come back and 4 of the 5 cards were over graded by a grade.

You just have to look at the card and grade it yourself. Then look at the number on the holder. If the number on the holder is higher, don't buy the card. The serial number is really irrelevant.

I agree wholeheartedly but the truth that matter is that the number on the slab DOES matter when rounding out price estimates. I won’t ever actively sell my PC but it does suck that finer examples of cards are comped less than lesser examples just because of the time period they were submitted and thus evaluated.

[FSUMagic420]

Originally Posted by CardGoonies

You're adorable.

You realize that before bills get passed they GET WORKED ON, right?

City, State, & Federal governments write laws and regulations over all sorts of little things all the time. Not everything they do is about your weed, meds, food, or pollution. This idea that big brother is out there only hammering away at the critical parts of life is laughable and completely false.

- The US government made it a federal law that companies cannot sell any wine with the name "Zombie"as the brand name. YES, that's a federal law.

Why on Earth you don't think that they would come in and regulate the sports card, grading, selling, etc. markets where billions of dollars change hands every year is beyond me. Pull your head out of the sand (or wherever you've got it stuck... a cloud, maybe?) and look around. That being said, I am not in favor of a lot of Fed regulations.... but what's going on in the sports card industry is a ton of Wizad of Oz stuff behind the curtains and I would love to see people called to testify over it.

Your naiveness of thinking the feds are ever going to touch the card world is amazing or you just never pay attention to what goes on in the government for you to seriously believe that they are touching this stuff. The feds do not care or will ever care about sports cards. Im not going to keep arguing with you since you seem to think you know more than someone who has actually worked with the government.

[Cardsandcoffee]

Originally Posted by CardGoonies

I think that there are certain things they look for that the naked eye could never ever see. Especially damage on vintage cards. I saw a youtube video where SGC puts some cards into a forensic document scanner to detect damage that led lighting and mag lamps can't. It was fascinating. The eye appeal of the card was good, but the actual condition of the thing was brutal in the document scanner.

The video below is the clip. The guy is a cheeseball, but the scanner and what they show is interesting!

https://youtu.be/_YNOs6Xu80w?t=982

BTW, not into SGC at all, but I think transparancy in the grading process is deserved by the clients of PSA, BGS, SGC, etc.... We don't get that, though. Probably because then people would get their own tools and only send in 10s. Most of these company's money has to be made in the volume of bad cards sent in.

Interesting. Brings out a very existential question of how important is the damage to the assessment, if the human eye isn’t ever really going to detect it? All things being equal , maybe a case can be made, but if one card looks better than another to the human eye, but worse in a specialized light setting than a different card, which looks slightly worse to the naked eye but better under said light, I’m choosing the first example!

[Gary]

Originally Posted by discodanman45

I love the standards. I have bought many great vintage cards that were nicer than my older slabs in the same grade or higher. I then trade or sell the older slabs and add more cards to my collection at great prices.

Your correct,the problem here is your an experienced collector and you know better.most guys have no clue a 9.5 BGS is the same grade as a PSA 10,further some still think an SGC 9.5 is equal to a BGS 9.5.These TPG should remove the damn number and just print the grade on the slab and stop all the grey area.

Same as most collectors just blindly accept a PSA slab is better than a BGS,SGC,CGC slab.when in fact PSA grades no harder or better than anyone else,in fact they are way less consistent than any of the top 4 TPG's.Sheep gonna bleet.i gave up trying to talk to guys about this stuff last year.I do what you do basically,i buy raw or new slabs and sell the old ones the grade may be the same but the new card is nicer.

The guy who understands these things can make some very good buys right now,I bought 10 Earl Campbell RC's over the last month,all new PSA or SGC slabs,everyone of them would be a 9 mint 3 years ago.all of the are 8 or 8.5 in their current slabs.when guys get sick of getting 8's and 9's on cards and stop subbing the standards will soften a little.ill crack all 10 and re submit them.and take 10 9's and have a shot or 2 at a 10.

[CardGoonies]

Originally Posted by Gary

Your correct,the problem here is your an experienced collector and you know better.most guys have no clue a 9.5 BGS is the same grade as a PSA 10,further some still think an SGC 9.5 is equal to a BGS 9.5.These TPG should remove the damn number and just print the grade on the slab and stop all the grey area.

Same as most collectors just blindly accept a PSA slab is better than a BGS,SGC,CGC slab.when in fact PSA grades no harder or better than anyone else,in fact they are way less consistent than any of the top 4 TPG's.Sheep gonna bleet.i gave up trying to talk to guys about this stuff last year.I do what you do basically,i buy raw or new slabs and sell the old ones the grade may be the same but the new card is nicer.

The guy who understands these things can make some very good buys right now,I bought 10 Earl Campbell RC's over the last month,all new PSA or SGC slabs,everyone of them would be a 9 mint 3 years ago.all of the are 8 or 8.5 in their current slabs.when guys get sick of getting 8's and 9's on cards and stop subbing the standards will soften a little.ill crack all 10 and re submit them.and take 10 9's and have a shot or 2 at a 10.

No. There's nothing else worth reading after you say this because it's so grossly off base and made up. Blanket statements like this are absurd. There are more BGS 9.5s out there that would PSA 9 then there are that would PSA 10.

[CardGoonies]

Originally Posted by Cardsandcoffee

Interesting. Brings out a very existential question of how important is the damage to the assessment, if the human eye isn’t ever really going to detect it? All things being equal , maybe a case can be made, but if one card looks better than another to the human eye, but worse in a specialized light setting than a different card, which looks slightly worse to the naked eye but better under said light, I’m choosing the first example!

I run into this debate in my business. Where people want to nitpick home thester projectors or subwoofers where, in a practical use scenario, their eyes can't tell a difference.... In a lab with specific testing, however, there can be tests that show quality differences on still image patterns, graphs, measurements, etc.... and guys will buy the much more expensive one that does well in the lab most of the time by far.